EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 1016
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Tryxtira
Sweden572 Posts
| ||
|
cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On May 06 2011 17:05 Ziggy Starport wrote: Idra always seems to claim the victim status in situations. If he's beaten, it's often by players worse than him (I'm paraphrasing things I've heard him say). I think his recent banning is another classic example of this: He doesn't seem to be capable of acknowledging that he could be wrong with his personal attack on another player, but instead incites people to PM mods on his behalf. Then turns his stream off in a huff. How mature. It's generally a poor show all round by him, and seriously unprofessional. He's abut the worst ambassador for Esports I can think of, you just have to look at the wave of unrest he creates in his wake. Sure, some personality from players is a good thing, in fact, a great thing, and should be welcomed. But petulance, passive aggressive excuses and ad hominem attacks should be dealt with before they become the norm. If it were any other sport, he would probably be fined thousands of dollars. I also think that's why Day9 didn't stand a chance in their balance 'debate': Idra was being too emotive, and even if a valid alternative to the problem was presented to him, he would have dismissed it out of hand, so firmly entrenched is he in his underdog/victim status. These are the reasons im surpised so many people agree with idra, are there really that many people that agree with this kind of attitude its a horrible attitude to have, rather then look for solutions its much easier to just dismiss them and say something is broken. Its called looking for the easy way out, I call this being lazy. Oh and tyler you say idra has done a bunch of research on PVZ but has not found any solutions, but he has, his success in PVZ has been skyrocketing but that doesnt matter to him because its risky play, or the players he was playing are bad. That being said idra is very young and i bet that my attitude wasnt that great when i was his age either (im only 3 years older than him but he still seems to have that teenager i know everything attitude). Idra is really immature i hope he doesnt have this type of attitude for the rest of his life because in the proffesional world this attitude does not = success. Imagine if someone acted like he did about their job when they were at the highest level of their proffesion (like idra is with starcraft and zerg) they wouldnt get far but i guess that situation would never arise because someone with that attitude would not be at the head of their field. Maybe if idra becomes a celebrity (outside of starcraft) thats the only place i think his attitude would still be acceptable/ succesful lol. | ||
|
TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On May 06 2011 18:29 WhiteDog wrote: The other part of the argument was that, in BW, Terran's way to kill a zerg were limited, and so the zerg could defend to it better, not to mention sunken colonies. In SC2... well it's different. well nowadays in pl and msl/osl i dont think many players are using 1base timings, but you still die if you are not prepared for wraiths or vultures. i do think sunkens are way better than spines but i dont think lack of scouting makes this matchup imbalanced. | ||
|
cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On May 06 2011 18:36 Tryxtira wrote: I don't get why InControl and Tyler had this huge discussion in this show. I believe JP should have interupted them. The thing is, the argument should be held by the organisations and not by players in them. That's just wrong in my opinion. I agree, although it more seemed like tyler was talking about his oppinion on the matter , and that the EG players were trying to defend their organization | ||
|
Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
On May 06 2011 18:35 Blackalpha wrote: It was the first time i watched state of the game on the last episode. As a Zerg i thought the points Grack raised where completely valid. As much as I fucking <3 Day9, he just didn't seem to understand what Grack meant. The fundamental basic issue that he was pointing out is that Zerg is a guessing game against a competent opponent as hatchery scouting is easily denied by both Protoss and Terran, We don't have the ability to just "Hit CC hotkey, press c and aim at opponents base = profit" or make Hallucinations and Observers. IdrA wasn't asking for Zerg to have a sweet buff like roach range 50 or something, he was just pointing out that scouting is near impossible against a competent opponent in the early game, and any Zerg that has played for even a short while knows this to be true. Great episode and debate though, by no means am I hating on Day9, I still think he's awesome, he's just wrong about this one!  How can Day9 be wrong when he didnt say anything? He just said he didnt want to discuss it or whatever, he never said something like "sure zergs can scout". Also, saying "zergs can scout" doesnt mean imbalance. That's just a statement. It's like saying "terran cant build workers as fast as zerg" and calling it imbalance. Day9s point is that it isnt as simple as that. There are so many factors that come into play, and what zerg doesnt have in scouting, they make up for in units production or whatever (just an example). If you want to look at imbalance of a game, you have to view the game as a whole, which IdrA didnt do. Also, i dont like speaking in absolutes. Saying "zergs cant scout" is a very, idk, 1 dimensional point of view. Sure they can scout if they really want to. Send in all your overlords at once and boom, you scouted. A game is way too complex to make statements like that, especially if you dont take other things into consideration. About the EG masters cup problem. I dont see it. Who cares what anybody said. I feel like Tyler and Incontrol were just arguing about words or whatever, it felt really silly. Tasteless was very funny though :D Also, get more Terrans on the show and disucss some terran strategy!  | ||
|
Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
On May 06 2011 17:08 DND_Enkil wrote: I usually zones out when Idra starts ventiong about zerg imbalance and has been a great follower of the Day9 model but i was really impressed by Idra in the last show. He put forward real arguments and issues and Day9 could not really give any coherent answer. IdrA boiled down the zergs weakness really well, lack of scouting early game and no all-around defense build always leaves you weak to all-ins. Sean was showing his absolute unwillingness to discuss balance and criticize Blizzard. Constantly saying he disagreed but not being able to repsond to the arguments made his case look really weak. Interesting to see someone challenging Sean for once, he prefers to preach alone in his dailies and i got the feeling in this show he was mostly concerned with being politicly correct rather than discussing balance. No race has an all-around defense build if you ask me, an all around defense build without scouting is something like: drop 5+ spinecrawlers at ur natural and get a quick Evo chamber + 2 spore crawlers, obviously Idra doesn't want to do that but then he also shouldn't complain there isn't such a build :p. Although I do agree zerg has a hard time scouting terran. but I don't really see how zerg has a hard time scouting protoss. If you flie in an overlord at the right time the protoss has a zealot and a sentry, around this time the protoss is gonna drop down his next buildings, 1 sentry does like nothing to an overlord. Even if you don't trust the situation and drop down a bunch of spine crawlers because you aren't feeling safe ur still infront since ur opponent didn't expand at all yet. Too quote MC: he drone, drone,drone > me all in > he drone,drone,drone > me win | ||
|
cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On May 06 2011 18:46 Deadlyfish wrote: How can Day9 be wrong when he didnt say anything? He just said he didnt want to discuss it or whatever, he never said something like "sure zergs can scout". Also, saying "zergs can scout" doesnt mean imbalance. That's just a statement. It's like saying "terran cant build workers as fast as zerg" and calling it imbalance. Day9s point is that it isnt as simple as that. There are so many factors that come into play, and what zerg doesnt have in scouting, they make up for in units production or whatever (just an example). If you want to look at imbalance of a game, you have to view the game as a whole, which IdrA didnt do. Also, i dont like speaking in absolutes. Saying "zergs cant scout" is a very, idk, 1 dimensional point of view. Sure they can scout if they really want to. Send in all your overlords at once and boom, you scouted. A game is way too complex to make statements like that, especially if you dont take other things into consideration. About the EG masters cup problem. I dont see it. Who cares what anybody said. I feel like Tyler and Incontrol were just arguing about words or whatever, it felt really silly. Tasteless was very funny though :D Also, get more Terrans on the show and disucss some terran strategy! Zergs cant scout isnt even true, in terms of scouting they have more options then protoss in the early game, after the initial probe scout zerg has the option to sac an overlord and poke at the ramp with zerglings. protoss has to wait to tech up to hallucination/ or get a robo. by that time a lair should be easily attainable and a overseer could be made if a zerg places alot of importance on scouting at this point in the gaame. If you time your scout properly only 1 stalker or sentry should be out if your scouting a protoss, 1 stalker takes 27 in game seconds to kill an overlord after its first shot. I did a test using unit tester, and the middle platform as a "base" wich is larger than alot of bases in the map pool, assuming the best possible situation for the protoss where the stalker is waiting right at the place the overlord is coming in with only 1 stalker the overlord scouted 90% of the base the portions that werent scouted were not enough to hide buildings in. Obviously this test is pretty general, there are alot of factors such as size and shape of the base, but generally speaking if a zerg times his overlord scout properly he should have a good idea of what the protoss is doing in the early game between saccing and overlord and poking with zerglings ,its sure more than protoss has at this point in the gaame. I understand from idras position its far more important for zerg to get a scout off at this point in the game then it is for protoss, but i dont think that is neccesarily true. Obviously im not zerg expert but if zergs get themselves into a safe situation ( a few spines out and some units) they can drone pretty hard from there and gain map control with speedlings to see any incoming threats, i notice nestea usually saves some larva in the early game and once the timing has passed he uses it all at once for drones, this doesnt really get you behind your still going to get out the same amount of drones your just not doing it right away your playing it safe and waiting for a timing to pass / getting the information you need to safely drone. | ||
|
seenster
Germany385 Posts
If you can't execute a particular method or deal with something, it doesnt mean it can't be dealt with in any way. It just means you haven't found the right way to deal with it. For example: if you want to construct a specific geometric object with a cycle and a ruler and you can't, you can't just say it doesn't work because of reason X and reason Y. You have to prove it in every way! Imo that was the thing day9 wanted to say. Idra can't say there's no way to deal with X and Y because he hasn't found one. The game needs to evolve and he needs to think about it. If he want's to find a way to deal with whatever he is facing, he'll find one. For the inc-tyler part: I get why the discussion is heated and I get both opinions. But i think if you claim yourself to be professional you should be able to discuss it in a moderate way and dont swear and talk smack in front of 20k ppl and lots more archivesviewer like me. This situation is solveable... if both sides want to. | ||
|
Leavzou
France156 Posts
On May 06 2011 18:55 Jakkerr wrote: No race has an all-around defense build if you ask me, an all around defense build without scouting is something like: drop 5+ spinecrawlers at ur natural and get a quick Evo chamber + 2 spore crawlers, obviously Idra doesn't want to do that but then he also shouldn't complain there isn't such a build :p. Although I do agree zerg has a hard time scouting terran. but I don't really see how zerg has a hard time scouting protoss. If you flie in an overlord at the right time the protoss has a zealot and a sentry, around this time the protoss is gonna drop down his next buildings, 1 sentry does like nothing to an overlord. Even if you don't trust the situation and drop down a bunch of spine crawlers because you aren't feeling safe ur still infront since ur opponent didn't expand at all yet. Too quote MC: he drone, drone,drone > me all in > he drone,drone,drone > me win A sac OL at this time is useless, a drone can mineral trick the zealot and see the same things. But, he does not stay enough time to see the real tech or build of the protoss. You can see 2 mores gates, but you can't know if he gonna add an other when your drone gonna die. | ||
|
Leavzou
France156 Posts
| ||
|
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On May 06 2011 18:55 Jakkerr wrote: No race has an all-around defense build if you ask me, an all around defense build without scouting is something like: drop 5+ spinecrawlers at ur natural and get a quick Evo chamber + 2 spore crawlers, obviously Idra doesn't want to do that but then he also shouldn't complain there isn't such a build :p. Although I do agree zerg has a hard time scouting terran. but I don't really see how zerg has a hard time scouting protoss. If you flie in an overlord at the right time the protoss has a zealot and a sentry, around this time the protoss is gonna drop down his next buildings, 1 sentry does like nothing to an overlord. Even if you don't trust the situation and drop down a bunch of spine crawlers because you aren't feeling safe ur still infront since ur opponent didn't expand at all yet. Too quote MC: he drone, drone,drone > me all in > he drone,drone,drone > me win There are units / mechanics in the terran and protoss arsenal that give them a edge on defense. Tanks / sentries are units that are most cost efficient in defense than in attack. (well on most maps for force field) For zerg, there are no defensive units. All units you have are as good attacking than defensive units. That is a fact, not to mention we have no wall in. You can arguably defend anything with a 3 gate expand. For the zerg to survive any kind of early all in, we need to scout it and react to it by producing enough units to crush our opponent, but not too much because counter attack is not an option in most of the games. That's why I think buffing zerg is such a bad idea: they would become just overpower. The problem is not zerg being underpower, but zerg lacking a defensive unit. | ||
|
cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On May 06 2011 19:00 WhiteDog wrote: There are units / mechanics in the terran and protoss arsenal that give them a edge on defense. Tanks / sentries are units that are most cost efficient in defense than in attack. (well on most maps for force field) For zerg, there are no defensive units. All units you have are as good attacking than defensive units. That is a fact, not to mention we have no wall in. You can arguably defend anything with a 3 gate expand. For the zerg to survive any kind of early all in, we need to scout it and react to it by producing enough units to crush our opponent, but not too much because counter attack is not an option in most of the games. That's why I think buffing zerg is such a bad idea: they would become just overpower. The problem is not zerg being underpower, but zerg lacking a defensive unit. What i get from this is, zergs should be more aggresive, also zergs ive seen having success recently have been more aggresive ^^ But like i said in my previous post zergs like nestea use the larva ability to their advantage in a defensive manner, he waits until a timing passes and then drones hard, or gets the information he needs and then drones hard he doesnt just blindly drone. Edit: im not saying other zergs dont do this but nestea does it in a very defensive way ive seen him hold off a 4 gate coming across the map with 2 zerglings out as the protoss units leave the base and no spines up. | ||
|
GMonster
686 Posts
Loved friendly arguements between idra and day9, tyler and incontrol. | ||
|
cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On May 06 2011 19:10 GoKu` wrote: One of the most dramatic SotG's. Was very willing of its 20k status. Loved friendly arguements between idra and day9, tyler and incontrol. Tyler incontrol wasnt very friendly at some points. TYLER YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKER~! was that friendly? edit: oh your a mod for incontrols stream, lol nvm its obvious what your stance is going to be on the situation ^^ i do like watching coaching sessions on his stream though :D | ||
|
SirKibbleX
United States479 Posts
On May 06 2011 19:08 cheesemaster wrote: What i get from this is, zergs should be more aggresive, also zergs ive seen having success recently have been more aggresive ^^ But like i said in my previous post zergs like nestea use the larva ability to their advantage in a defensive manner, he waits until a timing passes and then drones hard, or gets the information he needs and then drones hard he doesnt just blindly drone. Edit: im not saying other zergs dont do this but nestea does it in a very defensive way ive seen him hold off a 4 gate coming across the map with 2 zerglings out as the protoss units leave the base and no spines up. Ehh maybe you're right but I think IdrA is merely holding on to a relic of Brood War days of Yore. In Brood War, every race always had at least one 'safe' build that would not completely die to anything, only get varying degrees of disadvantage against different things. Then the player with greater skill could overcome the disadvantage and win. Builds like this are what the 'best players' frequently favor. For example Terrans going 1-rax FE vs. a Zerg. A fast-expanding build tends to be thought an auto-loss to a cheesy rush, but against 4pool, 5pool or 9pool an evenly-skilled Terran could often come out on top due to high SCV count and SCV/Marine micro being better than Zergling micro, even through massive losses, because the Zerg will be operating on so few drones as well! The build appears to be between only mildly disadvantaged to favorable almost completely regardless of the opponent's opening, for a variety of reasons. If the opponent goes for econ cheese (bunker rushing and two-base timing possibilites), teching (good income and scouting from double scans), or most forms of rushing (terrans have adapted methods of scouting these builds and have an excellent timing sense against openings like 2-hatch, 3-hatch muta, 2-hatch, 3-hatch lurker, hydra/ling bust, etc.) | ||
|
vetinari
Australia602 Posts
A terran or protoss doesn't actually need to scout anything early game. They can wall off/forcefield respectively. The initial scouting SCV/probe can be kept alive long enough to scout any 1 base all ins. On the other hand, zerg can poke up the ramp with a zergling and can sac overlords. Obviously, this is more than protoss pre hallucinate. Doing these will reveal a wall off, 1 ranged unit (+zealot if toss) and 1-2 ranged units respectively. This is not enough information to deduce with sufficient accuracy the precise build that the terran/protoss is doing, as terran/protoss have multiple builds that have those same features, yet require different responses. Consider the following thought experiment: you are a zerg and you see the following from sacrificing an overlord + poking with a ling: 1 marines, 1 barracks with a tech lab and 2 supply depots at the front. 2 marines killed the overlord, saw nothing else. Gas was not stolen earlier, since wall off was up before drone could get in. What builds could the terran be doing? And what are the correct responses? What happens if you guessed incorrectly? What happens if you guessed right? What happens if you prepare for everything? By the way, the answer to the last one: you are dead. | ||
|
Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
But it feels that Day[9] is not at the same level as the pro's at this point. He used to ignore every complain that IdrA made by yelling infestors. However, in the last SotG it seems somebody already made it clear to him that fast mass infestors is a joke in ZvT. Because I was really waiting for him to yell randomly infestors when Idra was talking about ZvT early scouting difficulties. Terran can do these all-in tactics that completely put zerg behind/destroy if not reacted properly. And these are VERY hard to scout and come QUICKLY. 1) 6 hellions(without blue flame) and after that 3 banshees off 1 base while expanding. (You need roaches and after that lair + queens but will you scout it?) 2) Blue flame hellions + Marauder all-in (Going lair is deadly) 3) Blue flame hellion drop. (roaches wont help here) 4) Fast Cloak Banshees (This one is the most risky of the 5 for the T) 5) Hellions and timed 5 Thor + scvs. (2 base counter to spanishiwa(?)) Terran can pick one of these strategies and be pretty sure that they can execute this strategy unless they scout the zerg not going 15 hatchery. While zerg has 2 real offensive builds against Terran. Which is the roach allin and the baneling bust. Both pretty easily hold when Terran is not doing one of the above 5 and just plays standard macro (bio or mech) (Stuff like 5rr doesn’t work anymore because you don’t build a second hatch). At the end of the discussion Day[9] started to use bad game design as an excuse. But please, do not use that euphemism for imbalance. 5 options against 2 options while the race with 2 options has worse defensive cost efficient units is pretty strange. Spanishiwa is strong against the current rushes, but it is a bad tactic against a heavy macro Terran with some siege tanks. And because the build is only so young and not yet used in big tournaments, the big pros in Korea have not yet searched for a tactic to abuse it. And I see it already being abused by random Terrans now and then. I am not claiming the game is imbalanced. I am a crappy masters player who actually struggles against some of these allins while July just roflstomps those. So I am not saying that the game is broken, but I am saying that IdrA makes a legit observation and that SotG should reply with a legit answer. Day[9] struggling with his words isn't going to help anyone. | ||
|
Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Zerg doesn't have the % of random/new players that win tournaments. IdrA and Ret are extremely talented players, everybody agrees on that. It doesn't prove anything if they can win 1 tournament each. Once more I repeat myself. I don't think the game is broken. But zerg might be a bit weaker than the other 2 races, even if the strength of the races was divided 34,5% 34,5% 31% by God Blizzard, then it is normal that 1 game says nothing. But it makes it harder to win a tournament were you need to win 10 series. Maybe this is the case. Maybe if everybody agrees on zerg being slightly worse but if everybody just leaves the balance solely to Blizzard and plays the game. Maybe then zerg won't feel so misunderstood... I don't know, so much money on the line.. | ||
|
cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On May 06 2011 19:27 vetinari wrote: Cheesemaster: the argument is not really that protoss/terran early game scouting is better than zerg. Its that zerg early game scouting is not good enough for their needs. A terran or protoss doesn't actually need to scout anything early game. They can wall off/forcefield respectively. The initial scouting SCV/probe can be kept alive long enough to scout any 1 base all ins. On the other hand, zerg can poke up the ramp with a zergling and can sac overlords. Obviously, this is more than protoss pre hallucinate. Doing these will reveal a wall off, 1 ranged unit (+zealot if toss) and 1-2 ranged units respectively. This is not enough information to deduce with sufficient accuracy the precise build that the terran/protoss is doing, as terran/protoss have multiple builds that have those same features, yet require different responses. Consider the following thought experiment: you are a zerg and you see the following from sacrificing an overlord + poking with a ling: 1 marines, 1 barracks with a tech lab and 2 supply depots at the front. 2 marines killed the overlord, saw nothing else. Gas was not stolen earlier, since wall off was up before drone could get in. What builds could the terran be doing? And what are the correct responses? What happens if you guessed incorrectly? What happens if you guessed right? What happens if you prepare for everything? By the way, the answer to the last one: you are dead. I said that myself, that (supposedly) zerg is in more need to scout then terran or protoss at this point in the game, I think the fact that overlords will not see alot is a bit false though, a poorly timed overlord wont see much, a properly timed overlord (not too many units out tech just going down) if they are delaying their tech to take out your overlord then you have more time to get your economy up and get units out anyways. Obviously im not a pro but soo many times ive been completely prepared (but only had 1 stalker or 1 sentry) and the overlord gets in there and see's everything because i do not have enough fire power at this time to kill the overlord in time. This is in the best possible situation where i caught the overlord coming into the base. A poorly timed overlord is a waste of an overlord a properly timed and placed overlord is invaluable. Sure it can fail sometimes, but its the same with a terran scan it isnt guaranteed to see everything. (i know i know scouting for zerg is more important) i think zergs need to start being more aggresive, after this whole discussion i consider zerg the aggresive race be aggresive get ahead then macro and prepare for the laate game, its possible to choose times to be aggresive and choose times to drone i dont think its exclusively one or the other, we see july zerg getting by with far less drones then moost zergs deem necessary. July's style of play is the way i feel zerg should be played (during the mc finals he said he had come up with a new style, it was quite passive he wasnt being aggresive, and the one game he was aggresive he won) By being aggresive protoss or terran has to reveal their tech. This is just my feeling on the subject obviously im not saying this is absolutely the way it has to be, this is just how i feel about it. | ||
|
hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 06 2011 18:36 Tryxtira wrote: I don't get why InControl and Tyler had this huge discussion in this show. I believe JP should have interupted them. The thing is, the argument should be held by the organisations and not by players in them. That's just wrong in my opinion. He wanted the argument, he brought up the subject | ||
| ||
