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On May 06 2011 13:10 ronpaul012 wrote:
hmm, quick question that i'd be interested in the responses of people. I noticed during the live stream the chat was really anti-tyler during him v incontrol, but the forum posts seem to be more pro-tyler overall (not completely just slightly favoring). Is that because of 1. the people in the chat are a completely different audience than those in the forums. or 2. have more people reflected on the argument and changed. I'm leaning towards both. I think tyler sounded bad when trying to explain it live, but when people thought of his argument they realized BOTH sides have good points.
I don't watch live so I can't comment on the people in chat, but I'd say point 2 is pretty accurate. I made my earlier post regarding the handling of the discussion in general because I've gone over the discussion in my head and it's really difficult to articulate how the EG incident is an example of a type of behaviour that Tyler is opposed to, and he was in a difficult situation on the show to have to argue that point alone.
Ultimately I think it's largely unenforceable and puts someone like Colbi in a lose-lose situation. I think most people can think of examples of PR where they feel like an individual or an organisation is trying to obscure or misconstrue the facts for their own ends. But just because you feel like that doesn't mean it's happening and you'll never get a unanimous consensus on what is or isn't an example of someone trying to play politics for their own gain.
So, to answer your question, I'd say the gut reaction of people was that
A) Colbi was acting appropriately and therefore
B) Tyler was wrong
but in retrospect Tyler's wider concern is something we can all agree on but A is still valid.
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On May 06 2011 14:59 Sqq wrote:
I'm actually kind of shocked that people are supporting Tyler, and berating Incontrol on that discussion they had. Incontrol made valied points, shot down every point Tyler had, and Tyler spiraled further and further down and his rants where down right wrong and desperate. I'd like someone who supports Tyler on the stuff he said to actually break it down for me, so I can understand why some people back him in this.
There's been probably 1 post per page for the last 50 pages of this thread doing exactly what you're asking, and more in the actual EGMC thread itself. Your being shocked is a product of you being willfully ignorant, which you can easily correct through some basic skimming.
What's more disappointing to me was that in a thread with contributions from colbi, tyler, incontrol, idra, jinro, huk, haypro, kennegit, hotbid, sirscoots, and nazgul, only the intial colbi / tyler interaction was discussed - which was barely even relevant to the underlying issue at hand.
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On May 06 2011 14:59 Sqq wrote:
I'm actually kind of shocked that people are supporting Tyler, and berating Incontrol on that discussion they had. Incontrol made valied points, shot down every point Tyler had, and Tyler spiraled further and further down and his rants where down right wrong and desperate. I'd like someone who supports Tyler on the stuff he said to actually break it down for me, so I can understand why some people back him in this.
I'll give it a shot for you. Tyler's main point on why it was a bad post by eg was that it was on the community forum, and that eg did not fully explain after being questioned. From my understanding there wasn't a problem with the original post, but when forum users asked why, they gave the same answer over and over. Tyler feels that on a forum like this it is the duty of users to post accurately and fully. So if EG had posted that as just a press release on their site and left it, then it would have been fine. But instead, on a forum he felt that when explaining on the forum why EG should have stated both sides.
Hopefully thats correct because thats what I got out of it.
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On May 06 2011 15:02 Fugue wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 13:10 ronpaul012 wrote:
hmm, quick question that i'd be interested in the responses of people. I noticed during the live stream the chat was really anti-tyler during him v incontrol, but the forum posts seem to be more pro-tyler overall (not completely just slightly favoring). Is that because of 1. the people in the chat are a completely different audience than those in the forums. or 2. have more people reflected on the argument and changed. I'm leaning towards both. I think tyler sounded bad when trying to explain it live, but when people thought of his argument they realized BOTH sides have good points. I don't watch live so I can't comment on the people in chat, but I'd say point 2 is pretty accurate. I made my earlier post regarding the handling of the discussion in general because I've gone over the discussion in my head and it's really difficult to articulate how the EG incident is an example of a type of behaviour that Tyler is opposed to, and he was in a difficult situation on the show to have to argue that point alone. Ultimately I think it's largely unenforceable and puts someone like Colbi in a lose-lose situation. I think most people can think of examples of PR where they feel like an individual or an organisation is trying to obscure or misconstrue the facts for their own ends. But just because you feel like that doesn't mean it's happening and you'll never get a unanimous consensus on what is or isn't an example of someone trying to play politics for their own gain. So, to answer your question, I'd say the gut reaction of people was that A) Colbi was acting appropriately and therefore B) Tyler was wrong but in retrospect Tyler's wider concern is something we can all agree on but A is still valid.
good point, thanks for the answer.
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As far as the inControl vs Tyler argument went, it was awful in my opinion.
I´m ok with yelling but you should always be aware that you may regret things you say.
The way I see it, Tyler wasn´t able to articulate his opinion, as he apparently he didn´t really think about it beforehand.
InControl was clearly able to articulate his opinion. But he didn´t argue for a compromise, he went for a payback, a humiliation of some sort. He was winning the argument already....
I don´t approve of that.
Also Idra was obviously backing up inControl later. Quite ironic seeing InControl talking about bullying while 2 people gang up on the one who has shown articulate weakness already. Way to go.
Too bad InControl was partly right. I wish he was wrong in every way possible.
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Bad day for esports. Lost a ton of respect for day9, tyler and incontrol.
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I was listening to artosis right now, and coming from a zerg and protoss players perspective i really am intrigued on what he has to say regarding balance.
In his oppinion he does not think that zerg is underpowered vs protoss right now of course he said this is assuming zergs are trying out alot of these new builds and not continue to do what they were losing with in the past. As he said there are alot of new scary zerg builds out there and now protoss is going to have to be the one coming up with new builds to learn how to deal with it.
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On May 06 2011 15:40 DoomsVille wrote:
Bad day for esports. Lost a ton of respect for day9, tyler and incontrol.
Me2. Idra gave very specific problems with the race and Day9 gave no reasoning behind his "i disagree".
I think zerg has a really hard time with early scouting. Cannot be compared to scans or hallucinated fenixes.
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On May 06 2011 15:35 Mataza wrote:
As far as the inControl vs Tyler argument went, it was awful in my opinion.
I´m ok with yelling but you should always be aware that you may regret things you say.
The way I see it, Tyler wasn´t able to articulate his opinion, as he apparently he didn´t really think about it beforehand.
InControl was clearly able to articulate his opinion. But he didn´t argue for a compromise, he went for a payback, a humiliation of some sort. He was winning the argument already....
I don´t approve of that.
Also Idra was obviously backing up inControl later. Quite ironic seeing InControl talking about bullying while 2 people gang up on the one who has shown articulate weakness already. Way to go.
Too bad InControl was partly right. I wish he was wrong in every way possible.
The way incontrol handled that was terrible, clearly he knew he was going to be talking about it on SOTG and had though of some stuff prior, it didnt help that no one really stuck up for tyler weather they agreed with him or not but idra kept saying things in agreement with incontrol (obviously they are both on EG so its expected) I really wish incontrol was wrong too, yelling at your friend and calling him a stupid motherfucker is not the way things should be handled especially when there are so many people watching, he should really apologize for that. I think thats the part of the argument where he was wrong anyways, when he called tyler a stupid mother fucker and tried to reference stride gum, that really didnt have much to do with the argument it seems like that thought process just came to him and it made him mad so it didnt even think about what he was saying , he just got mad and started yelling, its always better to think about something for at least 10 seconds when yoou get mad to just cool off for a second.
Other than that its true tyler couldnt articulate his oppinion very well but i see where he is coming from, i didnt think he was super innapropriate but i dont think he should have argued so much that he was in the right there. Even though it was brought up by someone else he should have just kept the discussion short, i mean what others were saying to him and about him in that thread fromm the EG side was just as innapropriate as what he said to begin with so i think they are both in the wrong no matter who started it (its really hard to say weather it was started by colbi or tyler, but i would lean more towrads tyler even though colbi could have done a better explanation)
I think it got blown way out of proportion by EG after the fact though like come on you guys representing the big organization it didnt feel like tyler was speaking on behalf of team liquid as much as it felt like INC and Idra were speaking on behalf of EG.
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On May 06 2011 15:40 DoomsVille wrote:
Bad day for esports. Lost a ton of respect for day9, tyler and incontrol.
Sad face. I think I lost some respect for iNcontrol for not trying to move away from the issue when he was obviously ahead. Tyler's argument could use work but he showed some incredible restraint in not becoming noticably heated even through iNc's apparent aggression and slightly better articulation. I think I gained some respect for IdrA though. If someone really, truly, believes something, even if it is unpopular, and tries to support it with clear, logical evidence through others' arguments to the contrary, it always impresses me. Whether or not IdrA is correct, he still makes some good arguments for racial imbalance. One has to wonder whether he plays Zerg because he actually likes the race or if he wishes to feign possessing more skill than he actually has.
Maybe iNcontrol's debate skill has been rubbing off on IdrA but either way I was still impressed that he managed to baffle Day9 and force him to admit his lack of experience in actual top-level SC2 gameplay. Day9 has been too busy casting and studying to bring the full force of his overwhelming knowledge and experience to bear in his gameplay. No loss of respect there.
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On May 06 2011 15:55 SirKibbleX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 15:40 DoomsVille wrote:
Bad day for esports. Lost a ton of respect for day9, tyler and incontrol. Sad face. I think I lost some respect for iNcontrol for not trying to move away from the issue when he was obviously ahead. Tyler's argument could use work but he showed some incredible restraint in not becoming noticably heated even through iNc's apparent aggression and slightly better articulation. I think I gained some respect for IdrA though. If someone really, truly, believes something, even if it is unpopular, and tries to support it with clear, logical evidence through others' arguments to the contrary, it always impresses me. Whether or not IdrA is correct, he still makes some good arguments for racial imbalance. One has to wonder whether he plays Zerg because he actually likes the race or if he wishes to feign possessing more skill than he actually has. + Show Spoiler +
Maybe iNcontrol's debate skill has been rubbing off on IdrA but either way I was still impressed that he managed to baffle Day9 and force him to admit his lack of experience in actual top-level SC2 gameplay. Day9 has been too busy casting and studying to bring the full force of his overwhelming knowledge and experience to bear in his gameplay. No loss of respect there.
Interesting point.
I wonder what idra would do if he started winning everything? I mean the guy clearly enjoys claiming underdog status, I wonder what would he would do if he were playing a race that is clearly superior.
He always seems to argue from a defensive standpoint regardless on whether it makes sense or not. I'm not saying his points aren't valid, just that his attitude is way too defensive.
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I wonder what idra would do if he started winning everything?
He would probably something along the lines of 'I'm winning because I'm that much better than everyone else.'' Then he'd still go on about how Zerg is underpowered.
To be honest though, I have to agree what Idra said on State of the Game. Idra's points where coming from experience whereas day9 didn't really have any evidence and just kept saying you cannont sum up balance in a few sentences.
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I think SOTG in the future should have those kinds of arguements go on for so long. It degenerates into personal attacking and with thousands of people watching that can never really be good
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I think Tyler had reason to be upset. IdrA said that both sides weren't explained, not just Team Liquid. This is true, EG's side wasn't explained either, but it should have be obvious that the statement made Team Liquid look bad. I think that Tyler may have gotten a little to heated but I'd be upset as well. Leaving out information is as bad as lying when it negatively portrays one side.
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On May 06 2011 16:35 WillyReturnStroke wrote:
I think Tyler had reason to be upset. IdrA said that both sides weren't explained, not just Team Liquid. This is true, EG's side wasn't explained either, but it should have be obvious that the statement made Team Liquid look bad. I think that Tyler may have gotten a little to heated but I'd be upset as well. Leaving out information is as bad as lying when it negatively portrays one side.
How is Colbi saying, TL was invited but they declined trying to make TL look bad? That is about as neutral as you can be. That was like 15 minutes of the argument was that Tyler was saying he shouldn't be neutral. Now what Tyler says actually has a negative approach to it, Saying that TL showed interest but EG wouldn't accommodate them.
I don't see how anyone could interpret what Colbi said as an attempt to make TL look bad.
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What Idra should do is make a big post in the strategy/general section with his analysis, backed up by replays showing examples where lack of scouting in X situation will make the game an autolose a too big % of the time. I feel it's too much theorycraft to just say "zerg has to play the guessing game" without any fact.
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I only lost respect for Inc and Day9. Tyler's point was valid, he just wasn't able to fully articulate the value and worth of his argument to sway anyone's opinion, but it's not as if it would. EG has made it pretty clear that their decision is final. The whole argument over the actions that occurred was totally irrelevant to the point about the fairness in latency argument. The whole argument between Inc and Tyler about Colby's shenanigans, whether legit or not, completely dragged attention away from the real debate at hand, if you even want to call it a debate....
Was a sad night for SotG, but we got 20k viewers before Idra got himself banned....
FUUUUUUUUUUU
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Great show this week JP. Tho I do agree with these fine gentlemen that sometimes an argument needs to be reeled in. IdrA has really grown more knowledgeable in his ability to cry imbalance, and as a debater I felt really bad for the way Day[9] got handled perhaps unfairly in that conversation, especially once his brother jumped in. Thought the EG/TL debate probably needed to happen but went on too long, and consensus is that both sides are idiots, yes? g. g. People do seem quick to disregard the fact that after the arguments everyone was cordial with one another and ended the show on a high note because they're all friends and they're just passionate about what they believe in. Also mad props to IdrA today on stream praising Day[9] after that debate. Gotta love this community.
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Seriously can't believe people think Idra was right for that balance discussion with Day9. It was like 45 minutes of "It's this way. Tell me I'm wrong, Day9." And the thing is, Day9 actually cares about being explaining himself clearly. All Idra did was make blanket statements. You can't have a useful discussion with that.
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On May 06 2011 16:47 MattTBK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:35 WillyReturnStroke wrote:
I think Tyler had reason to be upset. IdrA said that both sides weren't explained, not just Team Liquid. This is true, EG's side wasn't explained either, but it should have be obvious that the statement made Team Liquid look bad. I think that Tyler may have gotten a little to heated but I'd be upset as well. Leaving out information is as bad as lying when it negatively portrays one side. How is Colbi saying, TL was invited but they declined trying to make TL look bad? That is about as neutral as you can be. That was like 15 minutes of the argument was that Tyler was saying he shouldn't be neutral. Now what Tyler says actually has a negative approach to it, Saying that TL showed interest but EG wouldn't accommodate them. I don't see how anyone could interpret what Colbi said as an attempt to make TL look bad.
I don't believe Colbi TRIED to make TL look bad by any means. I do believe, however, that he should have recognized the interpretation and assumptions of those reading it. It doesn't give EG's reasons for inviting TL because they are obvious, no one would have any reason to demand more information on EG's actions because they are completely self-explanatory. This simply was not the case for TL's side. We would have no idea why they declined, and that is were rumors and assumptions can creep in. It should have been explained.
Basically this is my point
"We invited Team Liquid..." <---- Everyone and there dog knows what this means and why they did it.
"...Team Liquid declined..." <---- Umm, why? Wow, TL are ***holes!!!!!111! Are there issues between TL and EG? Are there server issues? Did they try to resolve them? Was there discussion of compromise? What was EG's reaction? What did/didn't EG do to/for TL? ... etc.
Basically it SEEMED like a neutral comment but only so if both sides were self-explanatory.
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EPT
