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On May 06 2011 08:30 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:28 vojnik wrote:On May 06 2011 08:21 branflakes14 wrote:On May 06 2011 08:15 ch4ppi wrote:
I just want to applaud Idra. I think his thought process about the fast buildtime of Spines would really improve the game, because ás a Zerg u could react to attacks. I dont think it would tip the balance in any way, because it would just make timing attacks easier to parry. And if Zealot build time was 5 seconds Protoss would be able to react to attacks better. Only seeing the proposed change from your side of things gets no one anywhere. yes because zerg has such awesome all-ins that protoss cannot deny with FF right? Imagine if Photon Cannons only cost 100 minerals, didn't require a Pylon or a Forge, and Probes could fly. That is what a Drone being dropped out of an Overlord spewing creep would be if build time was reduced.
wow backoff dude...its not like you have to build no units at all like anypro did...
why is it that everyone is not able to discuss this things without being insulting or talking complete nonsense?!
edit: this is the only thread that is constantly being abused for imbalance discussions on whole tl. why is nobody doing anything -.-
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On May 06 2011 08:36 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:05 FighterHayabusa wrote:On May 06 2011 07:00 zeru wrote:On May 06 2011 06:58 FighterHayabusa wrote:On May 06 2011 06:56 zeru wrote:On May 06 2011 06:52 FighterHayabusa wrote:On May 06 2011 06:49 zeru wrote:On May 06 2011 06:45 FighterHayabusa wrote:On May 06 2011 06:42 zeru wrote:On May 06 2011 06:39 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
[quote]
They don't have an extremely high win rate, they just have a better win rate than standard play.
And Super-biased progamers is redundant, it's their job, there's going to be bias no matter where you look. Exactly, balance discussion is dumb. Especially when there is zero proof of what you actually are arguing. Zerg's win rate is fine within top level play. It's unproductive and doesn't lead anywhere. Win rate means next to nothing in this discussion. There are simply too many variables to bring it down to just that one metric. Exactly what my point was. Balance discussion is dumb because there is too much to take into account and there will always be a bit more things to consider. So all we know right now is that zergs do win stuff, protoss do win stuff, terrans do win stuff. Let the meta game evolve, balance qq goes nowhere. That is a silly way to think. Just because a problem is large and complicated doesn't mean you shouldn't start breaking it into pieces and trying to figure it out. Ok, then I have a question for you. Where do you want to get with the discussion, what do you want to conclude, what information should be used when scientifically breaking down where things are wrong? If we actually would want to prove something is imbalanced we would have to establish how we would go about doing it. The only actual unbiased team that has the data, tools and knowlege (afaik) is blizzard, at blizzcon they discussed their tools and how they do this, We are all (most of us at least) biased, our experiences, data, knowlege aren't good, qualitative and quantitative enough. The same place Idra is hoping to get. He wants to get people to think about solutions to the problem that won't break other aspects of the game. You don't do that by just sitting back and waiting for someone else to find a solution that may or may not exist. Of course, but without a system and algorithms and ways to actually prove that something is imbalanced there is always going to be conflict and clash of opinions. Actually proving something is the key, and that key is what we can't create with what we are working with. You don't need an algorithm to prove that Zerg can't scout early game lol. That is a fact. What you seem to want to debate is whether or not that actually matters. Look, no one other the terran can have a good scout early game. Toss has less scouting than zerg when it comes to PvZ. At least you can have ling outside a toss bases's ramp. Until hallcuination, stargate tech, or robo. The only scout a toss has is the first probe.
its not a measuring contest, did you actually listen to what idra said or just saying stuff?
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There is nothing fundamentally imbalanced about a guessing game. That's exactly what poker is. Starcraft 2 will always have some sort of element that will make it a guessing game. That's why the game has fog of war. Baseball is a guessing game to a certain extent. If you're sitting on a fastball and he throws a curve, you take a strike. Football is a guessing game. If you're running a nickel package and they run the ball, you're going to lose a lot of yards. The thing is that those games have structures around them that give multiple chances to guess it correctly.
Baseball has a 162 game season in order to average out the games. Starcraft 2 will adapt also, if it turns out that SC2 is much more of a guessing game than Chess is. Perhaps SC2 will develop a league that involves a LOT of games in order to determine the winner. Lack of scouting does NOT equal imbalance. There's nothing fundamentally broken or imbalanced about a guessing game. But let SC2 play out and let's see what happens. Even if blizzard doesn't fix it, the community and leagues will fix it. Balance WILL be achieved. It is inevitable. That again, was Day9's point.
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On May 06 2011 08:37 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:30 branflakes14 wrote:On May 06 2011 08:28 vojnik wrote:On May 06 2011 08:21 branflakes14 wrote:On May 06 2011 08:15 ch4ppi wrote:
I just want to applaud Idra. I think his thought process about the fast buildtime of Spines would really improve the game, because ás a Zerg u could react to attacks. I dont think it would tip the balance in any way, because it would just make timing attacks easier to parry. And if Zealot build time was 5 seconds Protoss would be able to react to attacks better. Only seeing the proposed change from your side of things gets no one anywhere. yes because zerg has such awesome all-ins that protoss cannot deny with FF right? Imagine if Photon Cannons only cost 100 minerals, didn't require a Pylon or a Forge, and Probes could fly. That is what a Drone being dropped out of an Overlord spewing creep would be if build time was reduced. wow backoff dude...its not like you have to build no units at all like anypro did... why is it that everyone is not able to discuss this things without being insulting or talking complete nonsense?! edit: this is the only thread that is constantly being abused for imbalance discussions on whole tl. why is nobody doing anything -.-
Haha, seriously, I agree with you so much. There is so many things wrong with that statement...
For one you need Lair for spewing creep, you need a pool for a spine, you need lair for overlord drops and mostly, the races shouldnt be the exact same. That would be stupid. That would be Red Alert. (Heyooh!)
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On May 06 2011 08:41 randplaty wrote:
There is nothing fundamentally imbalanced about a guessing game. That's exactly what poker is. Starcraft 2 will always have some sort of element that will make it a guessing game. That's why the game has fog of war. Baseball is a guessing game to a certain extent. If you're sitting on a fastball and he throws a curve, you take a strike. Football is a guessing game. If you're running a nickel package and they run the ball, you're going to lose a lot of yards. The thing is that those games have structures around them that give multiple chances to guess it correctly.
Baseball has a 162 game season in order to average out the games. Starcraft 2 will adapt also, if it turns out that SC2 is much more of a guessing game than Chess is. Perhaps SC2 will develop a league that involves a LOT of games in order to determine the winner. Lack of scouting does NOT equal imbalance. There's nothing fundamentally broken or imbalanced about a guessing game. But let SC2 play out and let's see what happens. Even if blizzard doesn't fix it, the community and leagues will fix it. Balance WILL be achieved. It is inevitable. That again, was Day9's point.
No, Day was saying balance, but what he is talking about is equillibrium.
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On May 06 2011 08:38 vojnik wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:36 xbankx wrote:On May 06 2011 07:05 FighterHayabusa wrote:On May 06 2011 07:00 zeru wrote:On May 06 2011 06:58 FighterHayabusa wrote:On May 06 2011 06:56 zeru wrote:On May 06 2011 06:52 FighterHayabusa wrote:On May 06 2011 06:49 zeru wrote:On May 06 2011 06:45 FighterHayabusa wrote:On May 06 2011 06:42 zeru wrote:
[quote]
Exactly, balance discussion is dumb. Especially when there is zero proof of what you actually are arguing. Zerg's win rate is fine within top level play. It's unproductive and doesn't lead anywhere. Win rate means next to nothing in this discussion. There are simply too many variables to bring it down to just that one metric. Exactly what my point was. Balance discussion is dumb because there is too much to take into account and there will always be a bit more things to consider. So all we know right now is that zergs do win stuff, protoss do win stuff, terrans do win stuff. Let the meta game evolve, balance qq goes nowhere. That is a silly way to think. Just because a problem is large and complicated doesn't mean you shouldn't start breaking it into pieces and trying to figure it out. Ok, then I have a question for you. Where do you want to get with the discussion, what do you want to conclude, what information should be used when scientifically breaking down where things are wrong? If we actually would want to prove something is imbalanced we would have to establish how we would go about doing it. The only actual unbiased team that has the data, tools and knowlege (afaik) is blizzard, at blizzcon they discussed their tools and how they do this, We are all (most of us at least) biased, our experiences, data, knowlege aren't good, qualitative and quantitative enough. The same place Idra is hoping to get. He wants to get people to think about solutions to the problem that won't break other aspects of the game. You don't do that by just sitting back and waiting for someone else to find a solution that may or may not exist. Of course, but without a system and algorithms and ways to actually prove that something is imbalanced there is always going to be conflict and clash of opinions. Actually proving something is the key, and that key is what we can't create with what we are working with. You don't need an algorithm to prove that Zerg can't scout early game lol. That is a fact. What you seem to want to debate is whether or not that actually matters. Look, no one other the terran can have a good scout early game. Toss has less scouting than zerg when it comes to PvZ. At least you can have ling outside a toss bases's ramp. Until hallcuination, stargate tech, or robo. The only scout a toss has is the first probe. its not a measuring contest, did you actually listen to what idra said or just saying stuff?
We are all playing a guessing game. There are safer builds that zerg has like speedling expand and maybe throw down a spine or 2. Just like how 3 gate sentry expand is, toss spend some more on units to be safer before expanding. But even with those safe expands, sentry expand can still die to roach/ling attacks.
Im merely saying toss and terran has to coinflip as well. You know how many time when I scanned my opponent's base and missed a spire because he used drop creep and proxied it at a random base? All race must make some perdiction based on limited info given. It is how RTS works. The fact is so many zergs make it seem like it is impossible for zerg to scout but other races have it easy. It is just not true and our "safe" builds do die to aggressive plays. Zerg player here makes it sound like stopping a ling/roach rush is super easy with sentry expand. It isn't. One missed ff and its gg.
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On May 06 2011 04:11 Wazabo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 04:05 FallDownMarigold wrote:On May 06 2011 04:01 Wazabo wrote:
Day9 is right, it's non-sense to talk about balance in any kind of competition when both players are on the same field, aka playing the same game. Nobody is forcing Idra or any other zerg in the planet to play zerg. If they feel it's so broken change race already.
Oh wait, it's better to bitch and cry about balance 24/7 while winning tournaments.
That's absurd. Why should people stop playing zerg simply because perhaps it currently isn't up to par? That's akin to throwing and the towel and just giving up. Why play SC2 at all if you think it isn't balanced? Just quit! ....That kind of attitude is piss poor, believe it or not. I think you didn't understand very well my post. You shouldn't whine about your race, ever. Nobody forced you to pick it.
Its not hard to see why people wouldn't understand your post due to piss poor english.
How about this smart guy, people shouldn't be forced to pick a certain race to be competitive due to the nature of the game.
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On May 06 2011 08:46 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:41 randplaty wrote:
There is nothing fundamentally imbalanced about a guessing game. That's exactly what poker is. Starcraft 2 will always have some sort of element that will make it a guessing game. That's why the game has fog of war. Baseball is a guessing game to a certain extent. If you're sitting on a fastball and he throws a curve, you take a strike. Football is a guessing game. If you're running a nickel package and they run the ball, you're going to lose a lot of yards. The thing is that those games have structures around them that give multiple chances to guess it correctly.
Baseball has a 162 game season in order to average out the games. Starcraft 2 will adapt also, if it turns out that SC2 is much more of a guessing game than Chess is. Perhaps SC2 will develop a league that involves a LOT of games in order to determine the winner. Lack of scouting does NOT equal imbalance. There's nothing fundamentally broken or imbalanced about a guessing game. But let SC2 play out and let's see what happens. Even if blizzard doesn't fix it, the community and leagues will fix it. Balance WILL be achieved. It is inevitable. That again, was Day9's point. No, Day was saying balance, but what he is talking about is equillibrium.
Nobody ever defined balance in that discussion.
Dictionary definitions:
e·qui·lib·ri·um
/ˌikwəˈlɪbriəm, ˌɛkwə-/ Show Spelled[ee-kwuh-lib-ree-uhm, ek-wuh-] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ri·ums, -ri·a /-riə/ show+spelled">Show Spelled[-ree-uh] Show IPA.
1.
a state of rest or balance due to the equal action of opposing forces.
2.
equal balance between any powers, influences, etc.; equality of effect.
3.
mental or emotional balance; equanimity: The pressures of the situation caused her to lose her equilibrium.
bal·ance
/ˈbæləns/ Show Spelled [bal-uhns] Show IPA noun, verb, -anced, -anc·ing.
–noun
1.
a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight, amount, etc.
2.
something used to produce equilibrium; counterpoise.
3.
mental steadiness or emotional stability; habit of calm behavior, judgment, etc.
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On May 06 2011 08:15 ch4ppi wrote:
I just want to applaud Idra. I think his thought process about the fast buildtime of Spines would really improve the game, because ás a Zerg u could react to attacks. I dont think it would tip the balance in any way, because it would just make timing attacks easier to parry.
I think one of the issues related to shortening spine crawler build time would be that it would make crawler rushes too hard to counter in ZvZ.
You'd would have to pull off more drones to block it and every ZvZ would become early pool-first.
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Whoa, 1012 pages -- that's insane o.O Gotta say this episode didn't do it for me. It was pretty much just one or both sides making silly arguments backed up by sillier claims. For this being the first episode I haven't liked, though, I'd say they're still doing a superb job. Looking forward to next weeks episode <3
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Overlord Speed at Hatchery tech. ( needs spawning pool)
Problem solved.
I wonder if there will be a more in depth version of this debate on another Sotg. I'd actually like to hear a solid argument rather than an interruption fest, where the nicer person just sits there and tries to get the podcast back on track :s.
Would be good to get a Terran player on too i think, i feel like i learn alot from listening to Tyler and iNcontrol ( being a zerg player it's a different insight),
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Tyler was just sticking up for teamliquid, maybe he took it a little to far but you don't have to call him a stupid motherfucker incontrol. I mean when you say stuff like that to kennigit fine, but you can't do that to tyler, geez
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I think, the problem with reduced crawler build-time is the fact that zerg will have all the same problems of other races and their all-ins. ZvZ proxy spines could be broken. I wouldn't mind seeing a creep colony come back though to change that. Have it have 50/75 mineral, and then 50/75 for spine upgrade with a total cost of the original spine crawler. And maybe the ability to spread creep if its still a "creep colony".
Then again, this isn't a balance suggestion thread; but I don't think reduced crawler build-time would help the game that much in ZvZ.
Also, I believe Day[9] didn't exactly say its pointless to discuss balance when you're on the same "playing field". His point seemed to regard more around his desire to listen to the opinions of pros and to build up a friendlier approach to finding out "imbalances" rather than launching tirades and "venting"; which is probably why he stated Idra being somewhat unapproachable. I can't see how anyone can approach someone when they're complaining about imbalance, as did Idra in the Vod. Nothing against Idra of course, he's a player deeply embedded in the competition aspect so it's obvious he knows more.
In any case, InControl, your post was funny as hell
On May 06 2011 04:03 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 03:59 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
God Incontrol used to be in the debate club? He's so ridiculous when he's arguing with tyler. Blowing stuff out of proportion, ridiculous sarcastic mocking and false analogies. I just lost a lot of respect for him...
Fortunately you had SO much respect for me there is still a LOT remaining. HA! I WIN! VICTORY FOR INCONTROL IN 2011
An extreme idea for overlord scouting could be a temp-upgrade that gives the overlord "upgraded speed" for 10 seconds for DPS to health or death at the end of it. But I dunno, that was just a garbage thought out of the top of my head. Whatevvs.
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On May 06 2011 08:54 fusihunter wrote:
Overlord Speed at Hatchery tech. ( needs spawning pool)
Problem solved.
I wonder if there will be a more in depth version of this debate on another Sotg. I'd actually like to hear a solid argument rather than an interruption fest, where the nicer person just sits there and tries to get the podcast back on track :s.
Would be good to get a Terran player on too i think, i feel like i learn alot from listening to Tyler and iNcontrol ( being a zerg player it's a different insight),
I'd prefer having slow Overseers at Hatchery tech or with an evo chamber. They're faster than an overlord, and you have the option to contaminate a building to slow down or mitigate a rush.
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I just want to give some constructive criticism regarding the handling of the EG Masters Cup discussion. This isn't a criticism of anyone involved; I simply feel like a moderator for the discussion was missing who could have steered things a bit smoother. So rather than harping on anyone, I just want to point out a few things I think could have helped.
1. Framing the issue.
Going into the discussion it was unclear how it would pan out, but clear that it could potentially get ugly. A good course of action would have been to first discuss what happened, and then break from the incident and tease out the wider implications. For example:
Initially I believed the wider issue was regarding how tournament organisers and teams would deal with cross region matches. However after Tyler spoke first, it became clear there was another issue regarding the way spokespeople deal with the public.
Without proper framing, everything can become a bit of a jumble. When Tyler was speaking more generally, it could have been misconstrued that he was talking about Colbi specifically. Or when tournament logistics were being discussed, it wasn't clear whether that was referring specifically to EG, or just in general. Talking about the incident, getting that out off the table, then framing the discussion into only one of the issues the incident raised at a time lets people focus their thoughts more, and leads to less confusion.
2. Asking questions to clarify speakers' points
A good way to help ease tense discussion, especially when it's not crystal clear what issue is being spoken to, is to re-iterate to the speaker what you think their point is. Geoff's debate experience showed in his ability to try to clarify Tyler's point, but being that Geoff was on the other side of the discussion it's difficult for that not to feel like a trap. I think Tyler showed immense chill; many people would have blown up feeling like they were being handed a bunch of straw man arguments, particularly given he was alone in a room with Geoff, Greg and Bryce from EG, with JP and Nick staying out of the discussion (although Bryce didn't say anything either). An impartial 3rd party can ask probing questions to get the speaker to hone in on the point they're trying to make, or to agree on what the point is, so further definitions/clarifications are unnecessary.
3. Play the Devil's Advocate
It's a real shame Day9 had to leave before this got underway because he is amazing at this. This again speaks to having an impartial 3rd party to help keep the discussion running smoothly, because when two speakers just can't reach an agreement, the Devil's advocate can usually find points of compromise or at least understanding from one or both sides of the argument.
It's probably worth mentioning that Day9 could not play Devils advocate in the Zerg balance discussion given he was clearly representing the counterpoint to Greg and as a result Tyler actually stepped in to play the role to a certain extent, at least in terms of finding a compromise between Day9 and Greg's disagreement. This is why I say this isn't a criticism of anybody; no one person can do all of these things at all times. But if nobody picks up the ball, these situations can arise.
And finally, this is of course assuming that is the way the pillars want to run the show. This can all come down to the pillars' view as to whether it's better that SOTG is a place where they're free to hash things out unmoderated, or whether they want to be responding on issues in a more organised format.
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Ever since the BW days I've had a hard time listening to Idra talk about balance cause he always made it sound that the reason he was stuck on CJs B-team for 2 years was Terran imbalance rather then his own shortcomings as a player.
Which is why it annoys me that for once I think he's actually right ^^
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On May 06 2011 09:15 Popss wrote:
Ever since the BW days I've had a hard time listening to Idra talk about balance cause he always made it sound that the reason he was stuck on CJs B-team for 2 years was Terran imbalance rather then his own shortcomings as a player.
Which is why it annoys me that for once I think he's actually right ^^
This is so true. Normally what Idra says is has no merit because he is just complaining and he gives no or he is playing poorly, but what he said during sotg was completely true.
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How does wall help Zerg in any way?
There is a reason nobody walls off except against Zerg. And its not like you can scout anything interesting before Zerglings are out >_>
I do agree in that Zergs have a terrible time scouting, especially against T
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On May 06 2011 08:41 randplaty wrote:
There is nothing fundamentally imbalanced about a guessing game. That's exactly what poker is. Starcraft 2 will always have some sort of element that will make it a guessing game. That's why the game has fog of war. Baseball is a guessing game to a certain extent. If you're sitting on a fastball and he throws a curve, you take a strike. Football is a guessing game. If you're running a nickel package and they run the ball, you're going to lose a lot of yards. The thing is that those games have structures around them that give multiple chances to guess it correctly.
Baseball has a 162 game season in order to average out the games. Starcraft 2 will adapt also, if it turns out that SC2 is much more of a guessing game than Chess is. Perhaps SC2 will develop a league that involves a LOT of games in order to determine the winner. Lack of scouting does NOT equal imbalance. There's nothing fundamentally broken or imbalanced about a guessing game. But let SC2 play out and let's see what happens. Even if blizzard doesn't fix it, the community and leagues will fix it. Balance WILL be achieved. It is inevitable. That again, was Day9's point.
wut
chess is not a guessing game bro. Actually chess is the perfect utopia that starcraft 2 could become. In chess, you always know what your opponent is up to, so there are no gimmicky all-ins. In chess the best player wins, period. The way the game works, is that I will have a game plan and attempt to play it out(white's mindset). I know that my opponent can respond with either a, b or c. So I will prepare 3 responses to his 3 possible moves. When I realize he is doing a, I will utilize my prepared response to a. Then he will respond again, then I will respond again, etc etc. But I didn't guess: with a 75% chance he will do a, so no matter what I will respond to that. NO, you wait and confirm that he is doing a.
Protip: BW is the same way. Why? because a player can be punished if he over commits to a given strategy. But sc2 is not the same. You can't always punish mass unit-X. And I not only speak pro-zerg. Sure mass VR, mass collosi is retardedly strong. But from a terran poin of view, mass infestor is ridiculous. As Idra says, the game has fundamental things that are wrong. But Idra is too stubborn to help in a discussion, even when he proposed the brilliant solution: ovie speed before lair.
Day9 is not asking him(Idra) to shut the hell up, he is asking Idra to be more open-minded. To first look at what he can try that nobody else has before, and after every option has been tried to then go and cry imbalance. Idra even said on stream today that day9 doesn't know what he is talking about because he doesn't play sc2. LOL. Day obviously knows more about the game than him, or at least he tries.
Now if you excuse me, I will go back to pray that blizz reads this thread and notices that ovie speed before lair(requires pool) is a great option.
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On May 06 2011 05:51 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 05:27 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 06 2011 05:18 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 06 2011 05:10 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 06 2011 05:01 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 06 2011 04:33 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 06 2011 04:31 Leavzou wrote:On May 06 2011 04:28 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 06 2011 04:20 Leavzou wrote:On May 06 2011 04:19 TheTenthDoc wrote:
[quote]
Bullshit. If he makes bad decisions he deserves to lose. If his opponent finds weaknesses in his build he should lose. Did you read the post I quoted?
The fact is idra did not make bad descisions. He just could not read his opponent because of balance problems, and lost because of that. Here's the thing: players like Sheth and Catz play the exact same players IdrA does. I watch their streams a lot and they frequently comment while or after they play. I have never (that I can remember) heard them incorrectly predict what the opponent is doing. Their losses (and they frequently admit this) are entirely due to execution mistakes and poor decisions. Don't compare players like catz or sheth with idra... I heard them (especially sheth) miss read their opponents, many times. It's a really really bad argument. Okay. Give me examples. IdrA should be worlds beyond them and they play the same people. He should be better at prediction then them. IdrA's used to predicting people who make sense. Sheth and Catz are used to predicting people who don't. Also, IdrA is quite a bit beyond them. You can't really take ladder as a source for your view on a players skill. I know IdrA is beyond them, that's my point. IdrA's problem is that he apparently loses to people far below his skill (including those on ladder) because he can't predict what they're doing. He says this is a problem in balance, but Catz and Sheth don't (in my experience) have these same problems while laddering and play the exact same race. If more experience on NA with these nonsense players will make IdrA as good at predicting how is there an imbalance? He never said that having unpredictable players is an imbalance. And in my experience, IdrA speculates a lot whereas players like Sheth and Catz make predictions only when they're 90% sure. Sheth and Catz most likely have no clue most of the time, neither does IdrA because Zerg earlygame scouting is pretty terrible. The only difference is that IdrA speculates, sometimes not even based on anything that he's seen but rather on the player he's against. And obviously speculation off of minimal/no information is much more prone to being wrong than predictions off of solid information. Prediction is based off of scouting; it's making a conclusion by inference from all your knowledge, not just the knowledge you've directly observed. The problem with scouting is inherently a problem with unpredictability. If players weren't unpredictable you'd never need to scout anyway. Why do Catz and Sheth only seem to lose when they have poor execution? I have rarely (never that rises to mind) seen them go "well, I didn't scout that and so I lost." The exception is when the opponent is doing some wonky build that they've never seen before and scouting wouldn't have helped anyway (and those builds should be rewarded, by the way, if we want to see a developing scene). They both lay responsibility with their decision making and execution of their strategy. And Sheth and Catz frequently speculate off of who they're playing, even just in ladder games. Edit: The exception was a weird 2rax proxy in a tournament on Xel Naga Caverns that made even Sheth rage a little bit, but I've never seen that repeated anywhere. I don't know what you're trying to say, are you trying to say that IdrA doesn't scout enough? Because that's completely false. Are you saying that Sheth and Catz have better reactions? They can't make spine crawlers build any faster and they can't turn their Drone eggs into Zergling eggs... If Sheth and Catz and IdrA are all speculating on what a player will do based off no ingame knowledge, then that has nothing to do with skill nor the balance of the game. From my experience, Sheth and Catz don't have better predictions based off of ingame knowledge than IdrA, they just make fewer predictions because they want to be more sure before saying anything. But of course, we're both speaking from our personal experiences so who knows.
Someone else said that IdrA loses 20% of his games because the opponent either hits a weak spot or IdrA makes a wrong decision. I said that that seemed the fair number, then someone told me IdrA was only losing because he was making incorrect predictions.
I got the impression earlier in the thread that on his stream he didn't make incorrect predictions, but then someone told me he did all the time or straight up didn't know what his opponent was doing. I haven't watched his stream, so I took their word for it and asked why he isn't making good predictions if I see worse players making fairly accurate predictions.
Edit: I'm going to just stop arguing this because I'm arguing with two different people about two different things, it's not productive at all.
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EPT
