EPTZergs have after all complete early map control with just a few lings.
Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 1011
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kardinal
Sweden154 Posts
Zergs have after all complete early map control with just a few lings. | ||
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Sylverin
United States480 Posts
On May 06 2011 07:44 Kich wrote: But that's objectively untrue, unless you can give a better description of what the early game means? You can drone scout in the early game, estimate their build, and then later confirm it with an overseer. Zerg's can (you can go try this) get an overseer around the 6:30 mark rather easily and even morph their closest overlord into one to make the travel time ~0 seconds. Most good pushes happen around 7 minutes, so you have a 30 second head start to build the proper defenses. So I guess I'm just confused then, is this not early enough? Because Protoss can't scout earlier than that and Terran's can but it would cripple themselves to do so. Why is this such a big deal for zerg, but not a big deal for any of the other races who are equally as prone to flat out dying from cheese? Someone made the claim earlier that, for instance against Terran, there were X Y Z many different cheeses and early aggressive builds to worry about and all of them needed such drastically different reactions that not knowing exactly, precisely which attack was coming you would flat out lose--I hate to use the same emphatic word twice, but this is also objectively untrue. You have queens, spine crawlers, zerglings, and roaches available to you at the beginning of the game. There aren't actually that many combination of these units. I would propose also that if you worked towards getting an "early" overseer (a unit you should desire anyways for it's utility in...scouting...) you could then dump excess gas into upgrades or tech. Notice then that if you were to get upgrades with your new found gas, you would have the option to get spore crawlers rather early in response to virtually any air opening to aid your queens.. Or hey, maybe you don't actually need to get zergling speed the moment the pool finishes, Spanishiwa operates fine without it up towards 40+ supply. So instead of making a ton of queens to defend, you can tech up to overseers with the extra gas and then start getting roaches? Maybe zergling centric-openings aren't all that great in the grand scheme of things--in a similar fashion to Protoss not relying solely on Zealots for the first 8 minutes of the game.. QFT The issue at hand with zerg in comparison with protoss and terran is that they either drone or they make units and the point they are attempting to make is that if they don't make the exact amount of drones to units ratio based on your movements they lose. I believe that each race has a specific problem early game but zerg are the most vocal about it. Protoss: Cannot move away from ramp or they die period. Also requires excellent sentry control. I know what your saying protoss is op but if you don't believe me go play protoss  Zerg: Cannot scout easily without killing overlords etc. Terran: Very difficult to fast expand safely without good SCV control(bunker repair) Are these issues imbalance? nope, here is why; on certain maps each of these issues is able to be abused quite harshly. Any map with a wider than one force field ramp is EXTREMELY hard for protoss to avoid cheese. Any map with a easy to take natural is very difficult for terran to expand quickly. And most maps are very hard for zerg to scout effectively. Protoss and terran have figured out solutions to their "imbalances in the early game" by dying a lot to stupid bullshit and are now able to do decent with a few openings. Zerg has not, instead of having overlords sitting outside the opponents main ready to see anything that comes out or sac'ing one to see what is exactly happening they do something else. Something Idra said that bothered me was that there was no map where it takes 50 seconds to get from main to main. I'm almost positive thats not true, I remember a few months ago a day9 daily was speaking of Zel'naga caverns one of the few remaining smaller maps in the map pools being played. it took 50-60 seconds or so plenty of time to get spine crawlers up in time( i do think they need to build faster maybe 40-45 seconds) the only race(early game say before 6-7 minutes) with units that reduce that time limit below 50-60 seconds on that map are speedlings and we all know mirrors may not be perfect but they are balanced just by being what they are. Edit: the problem with speaking on balance is its 90% venting with no statistical basis and 10% attempting to make the game better. Sadly its also 100% useless, Constantly including myself reading this very post make outrageous claims of this person will always do this AKA marines stalkers waiting in the EXACT right position to start firing or that protoss cannot leave its ramp etc. etc. The problem with that is they dont always do that occasionally if they do you still get by blah blah blah... I believe Day9 was attempting to make this point but seemed to falter to idra's anger or maybe just being tired and didn't want to argue. | ||
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Valroth
New Zealand28 Posts
On May 06 2011 07:44 Kich wrote: But that's objectively untrue, unless you can give a better description of what the early game means? You can drone scout in the early game, estimate their build, and then later confirm it with an overseer. Zerg's can (you can go try this) get an overseer around the 6:30 mark rather easily and even morph their closest overlord into one to make the travel time ~0 seconds. Most good pushes happen around 7 minutes, so you have a 30 second head start to build the proper defenses. So I guess I'm just confused then, is this not early enough? Because Protoss can't scout earlier than that and Terran's can but it would cripple themselves to do so. Why is this such a big deal for zerg, but not a big deal for any of the other races who are equally as prone to flat out dying from cheese? Couple of things: 1. Both Protoss and Terran can wall in and viably stay on one base for longer than Zerg. 2. Both Protoss and Terran have a good tier 1 ranged unit that is viable vs both ground and air, and this unit remains viable throughout the game so it is never wasted - namely stalker and marine. Early game zerg has no wall, more area to defend, and no versatile anti-air and anti-ground unit to fall back on when caught off guard. Objectively, this is not a balanced situation. Also, an overseer is 100 gas = ling speed = +1 attack = 4 banelings = 4 roaches. Not saying its always a bad idea, but 100 gas before 7 minutes for scouting will weaken Zerg's defense further. | ||
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
On May 06 2011 08:02 MrCon wrote: Ok, I'll stop here. Care to explain how the zerg is "behind" ? Between you and the guy above you we have the caricature of why balance can't be discussed. not making anything for 100 seconds (nexus build time) and him cronoing probes ready to transfer? having supply ready for roaches / aka overlords? if he actually cancels? the attack has sentries with it (if he hides it good till last second) zerg depends on better economy to trade armies, you do the math! Why would so many zerg complain about that strategy if it was that easy to do what you say? do you think all zergs are stupid and cannot figure anything in this game? | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1403 Posts
On May 06 2011 08:08 Sylverin wrote: Zerg: Cannot scout easily without killing overlords etc. It's not the zerg is bad because you need to sac overlords to scout, it's that there is no way to get an overlord past 2+ stalkers/marines so that even if you're willing to sac overlords you still can't get into their base. | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
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Telebear
United Kingdom107 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 06 2011 08:14 TheButtonmen wrote: It's not the zerg is bad because you need to sac overlords to scout, it's that there is no way to get an overlord past 2+ stalkers/marines so that even if you're willing to sac overlords you still can't get into their base. Smaller mains. Cliffs. | ||
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Marcus420
Canada1923 Posts
On May 06 2011 08:04 MrSexington wrote: So, IdrA won't be streaming for the next 2 days. Does this mean that the bet is still on and JP will still have to buy him drinks? I heard the commentary was hilarious... but I missed out. (See his tweet for the reason why. I'm not going to repeat it here.) Yes. of course. | ||
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Maliris
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On May 06 2011 08:15 ch4ppi wrote: I just want to applaud Idra. I think his thought process about the fast buildtime of Spines would really improve the game, because ás a Zerg u could react to attacks. I dont think it would tip the balance in any way, because it would just make timing attacks easier to parry. And if Zealot build time was 5 seconds Protoss would be able to react to attacks better. Only seeing the proposed change from your side of things gets no one anywhere. | ||
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FighterHayabusa
United States90 Posts
On May 06 2011 08:20 Maliris wrote: The problem isn't the lack of scouting, the problem is the lack of scouting in combination with no safe build with very limited scouting info... Terran and Protoss have a safe build with very limited scouting info, even if it is slightly suboptimal (pvz 3gate expand - forge before nexus, 1-2 cannons before teching etc.) actually all races have pretty poor scouting in sc2 compared to BW despite how early aggression is much more powerful, but zerg is the only race that can lose outright because of this Exactly. There are builds you can choose blindly that can defend some, but none will defend all. On top of that, just by taking that route you put yourself behind if your opponent is playing a macro game. | ||
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
On May 06 2011 08:21 branflakes14 wrote: And if Zealot build time was 5 seconds Protoss would be able to react to attacks better. Only seeing the proposed change from your side of things gets no one anywhere. yes because zerg has such awesome all-ins that protoss cannot deny with FF right? | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1403 Posts
So what do we do until Blizzard completely changes the map pool? | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On May 06 2011 08:28 vojnik wrote: yes because zerg has such awesome all-ins that protoss cannot deny with FF right? Imagine if Photon Cannons only cost 100 minerals, didn't require a Pylon or a Forge, and Probes could fly. That is what a Drone being dropped out of an Overlord spewing creep would be if build time was reduced. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On May 06 2011 08:09 Valroth wrote: Couple of things: 1. Both Protoss and Terran can wall in and viably stay on one base for longer than Zerg. 2. Both Protoss and Terran have a good tier 1 ranged unit that is viable vs both ground and air, and this unit remains viable throughout the game so it is never wasted - namely stalker and marine. Early game zerg has no wall, more area to defend, and no versatile anti-air and anti-ground unit to fall back on when caught off guard. Objectively, this is not a balanced situation. Also, an overseer is 100 gas = ling speed = +1 attack = 4 banelings = 4 roaches. Not saying its always a bad idea, but 100 gas before 7 minutes for scouting will weaken Zerg's defense further. Queens. Spanishiwa build. Idra mentioned it himself. It's safe and defends most of anything. The counter to it is greed from the other player, because Queens can't go on the offensive. So it's not that Zerg can't defend. It's that Zerg can't defend while still putting on pressure, which both Terran and Protoss can do. Back in Beta, when Queens moved as fast off creep as they do now on creep, Zergs were rolling people with early Queen + Roach attacks that were virtually unbeatable. Zerg started off as the most powerful race in SC 2, with 2 armor 1 food Roaches and Queens that could push down an opponent's base within the first few minutes of the game. A lot of what you have now is the result of ridiculous all-ins developed by Zerg. It's what Blizzard's balance team focuses on. I bring this up because the design team foresaw the deficiencies in Zerg defense, and that's why they gave Zerg so many powerful early game units in the beginning. They did not, however, foresee the power of Zerg all-ins, and the knee-jerk reactions to those all-ins are what landed Zergs where they are today. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 06 2011 08:29 TheButtonmen wrote: So what do we do until Blizzard completely changes the map pool? Refrain from using words like "fundamentally broken" to start. I know you specifically didnt use those words but people need to take a second to relax and examine the situation from a more reserved and informative standpoint. Second, tournaments have historically lead the way in testing community voiced map changes. So if your looking for a place to start that would be one. | ||
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
On May 06 2011 08:30 branflakes14 wrote: Imagine if Photon Cannons only cost 100 minerals and didn't require a Pylon or a Forge. That is what a Drone being dropped out of an Overlord spewing creep would be if build time was reduced. thats a really hypothetical situation man, to have overlord speed + drop researched and drop in main or expo? I say far easier than dealing with terran drops if u want a comparison. | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On May 06 2011 07:05 FighterHayabusa wrote: You don't need an algorithm to prove that Zerg can't scout early game lol. That is a fact. What you seem to want to debate is whether or not that actually matters. Look, no one other the terran can have a good scout early game. Toss has less scouting than zerg when it comes to PvZ. At least you can have ling outside a toss bases's ramp. Until hallcuination, stargate tech, or robo. The only scout a toss has is the first probe. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1403 Posts
On May 06 2011 08:32 Archerofaiur wrote: Refrain from using words like "fundamentally broken". I know you didnt but people need to take a second to relax and examine the situation from a more reserved standpoint. Will this reserved standpoint let me see inside a terran base before the eight minute mark? This isn't a new complaint, it's not like people haven't sat back and examined it from a "more reserved standpoint", this has been an issue since release. | ||
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