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On May 06 2011 09:37 yiodee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:41 randplaty wrote:
There is nothing fundamentally imbalanced about a guessing game. That's exactly what poker is. Starcraft 2 will always have some sort of element that will make it a guessing game. That's why the game has fog of war. Baseball is a guessing game to a certain extent. If you're sitting on a fastball and he throws a curve, you take a strike. Football is a guessing game. If you're running a nickel package and they run the ball, you're going to lose a lot of yards. The thing is that those games have structures around them that give multiple chances to guess it correctly.
Baseball has a 162 game season in order to average out the games. Starcraft 2 will adapt also, if it turns out that SC2 is much more of a guessing game than Chess is. Perhaps SC2 will develop a league that involves a LOT of games in order to determine the winner. Lack of scouting does NOT equal imbalance. There's nothing fundamentally broken or imbalanced about a guessing game. But let SC2 play out and let's see what happens. Even if blizzard doesn't fix it, the community and leagues will fix it. Balance WILL be achieved. It is inevitable. That again, was Day9's point. wut chess is not a guessing game bro. Actually chess is the perfect utopia that starcraft 2 could become. In chess, you always know what your opponent is up to, so there are no gimmicky all-ins. In chess the best player wins, period. The way the game works, is that I will have a game plan and attempt to play it out(white's mindset). I know that my opponent can respond with either a, b or c. So I will prepare 3 responses to his 3 possible moves. When I realize he is doing a, I will utilize my prepared response to a. Then he will respond again, then I will respond again, etc etc. But I didn't guess: with a 75% chance he will do a, so no matter what I will respond to that. NO, you wait and confirm that he is doing a. Protip: BW is the same way. Why? because a player can be punished if he over commits to a given strategy. But sc2 is not the same. You can't always punish mass unit-X. And I not only speak pro-zerg. Sure mass VR, mass collosi is retardedly strong. But from a terran poin of view, mass infestor is ridiculous. As Idra says, the game has fundamental things that are wrong. But Idra is too stubborn to help in a discussion, even when he proposed the brilliant solution: ovie speed before lair. Day9 is not asking him(Idra) to shut the hell up, he is asking Idra to be more open-minded. To first look at what he can try that nobody else has before, and after every option has been tried to then go and cry imbalance. Idra even said on stream today that day9 doesn't know what he is talking about because he doesn't play sc2. LOL. Day obviously knows more about the game than him, or at least he tries. Now if you excuse me, I will go back to pray that blizz reads this thread and notices that ovie speed before lair(requires pool) is a great option.
"Actually chess is the perfect utopia that starcraft 2 could become. In chess, you always know what your opponent is up to, so there are no gimmicky all-ins." So the ultimate solution in your opinion is to remove the fog of war? I guess you could try to run a custom map league using maps with shared vision. Or alternatively idra could ask EG to start a NR10 league.
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@yiodee
Starcraft is a game of limited information, chess is not. Brood War is objectively NOT like chess in this way, but the game was so refined that great players knew all the miniscule tells, they didn't need to see what was going on to know what was going on. And whether or not mass voids and colossi/mass infestors is really strong is completely irrelevant to the topic of early game scouting, it's also not broken, and I don't really know why you brought it up.
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After reading all these comments I am scared and curious of the latest episode.
Scared because I will lose my illusions about them people being bestest fwiends fowever.
Curious because I want to know what all the fuss is about.
Also I am a scumbag that likes arguments. On a factual level. When people get to a personal level I get turned off.
I am sure I will regret this...
Oh yes. I can see Geoffs bad mood right from minute 1. This can´t end well.
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On May 06 2011 09:37 yiodee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:41 randplaty wrote:
There is nothing fundamentally imbalanced about a guessing game. That's exactly what poker is. Starcraft 2 will always have some sort of element that will make it a guessing game. That's why the game has fog of war. Baseball is a guessing game to a certain extent. If you're sitting on a fastball and he throws a curve, you take a strike. Football is a guessing game. If you're running a nickel package and they run the ball, you're going to lose a lot of yards. The thing is that those games have structures around them that give multiple chances to guess it correctly.
Baseball has a 162 game season in order to average out the games. Starcraft 2 will adapt also, if it turns out that SC2 is much more of a guessing game than Chess is. Perhaps SC2 will develop a league that involves a LOT of games in order to determine the winner. Lack of scouting does NOT equal imbalance. There's nothing fundamentally broken or imbalanced about a guessing game. But let SC2 play out and let's see what happens. Even if blizzard doesn't fix it, the community and leagues will fix it. Balance WILL be achieved. It is inevitable. That again, was Day9's point. wut chess is not a guessing game bro. Actually chess is the perfect utopia that starcraft 2 could become. In chess, you always know what your opponent is up to, so there are no gimmicky all-ins. In chess the best player wins, period. The way the game works, is that I will have a game plan and attempt to play it out(white's mindset). I know that my opponent can respond with either a, b or c. So I will prepare 3 responses to his 3 possible moves. When I realize he is doing a, I will utilize my prepared response to a. Then he will respond again, then I will respond again, etc etc. But I didn't guess: with a 75% chance he will do a, so no matter what I will respond to that. NO, you wait and confirm that he is doing a. Protip: BW is the same way. Why? because a player can be punished if he over commits to a given strategy. But sc2 is not the same. You can't always punish mass unit-X. And I not only speak pro-zerg. Sure mass VR, mass collosi is retardedly strong. But from a terran poin of view, mass infestor is ridiculous. As Idra says, the game has fundamental things that are wrong. But Idra is too stubborn to help in a discussion, even when he proposed the brilliant solution: ovie speed before lair. Day9 is not asking him(Idra) to shut the hell up, he is asking Idra to be more open-minded. To first look at what he can try that nobody else has before, and after every option has been tried to then go and cry imbalance. Idra even said on stream today that day9 doesn't know what he is talking about because he doesn't play sc2. LOL. Day obviously knows more about the game than him, or at least he tries. Now if you excuse me, I will go back to pray that blizz reads this thread and notices that ovie speed before lair(requires pool) is a great option.
chess is a terribly boring game to watch though. And in BW people are punished for overcommiting to a single strat. All RTS games have that in common sc2 is no different.
Your option of utopia is basically removing the fog of war. It isn't hard to program into a custom game. Why not try it and tell us how fun it is.
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If Idra would stop speaking of balance like a whiny teenager, then maybe Day9 would take what he says about balance seriously. I completely agree with Day9 that it would take a lot of data, thorough analysis and time to determine absolutely what is or is not balanced. Idra just rages and name-calls lesser players. What why intelligent people don't take anything Idra says seriously...
Q-fucking-Q.
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IdrA was making statements based on anecdotal evidence and personal experience. Day9 was making neutral statements that led nowhere and refused to acknowledge an possibilities that IdrA threw out. I'm a huge Day9 fan, but I have to say that IdrA was making the better argument in his rage-wrapped delivery.
The only flaw in IdrA's argument is his basis that bad players should not be able to win against superiorly skilled opponents because of the race that they play. There is no metric in Starcraft 2 that allows the labeling of players based on their skill. It is frustrating to see a less accomplished or skilled player win even though you've been playing better. IdrA has made it clear that he hates seeing people pull off victories because of advantages that their race has. However, it is not a fair train of thought.
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TBH I found the end-ish of the podcast very bad to listen to. I hope its better next week. Some of the things that INControl said were quite offensive, and even though I understand some and agreed with some of his previous comments I found some of the things he said just to end up being a bit personal against tyler. It was a fairly pointless argument that eneded up making me dislike just general starcraft things a bit more instead of my normal enjoyment. Hopefully people can keep it together next week.
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On May 06 2011 11:21 ambientmf wrote:
If Idra would stop speaking of balance like a whiny teenager, then maybe Day9 would take what he says about balance seriously. I completely agree with Day9 that it would take a lot of data, thorough analysis and time to determine absolutely what is or is not balanced. Idra just rages and name-calls lesser players. What why intelligent people don't take anything Idra says seriously...
Q-fucking-Q.
Just another foreverbronze.
If you think the current state of SC2 is so balanced, so close to perfection that it would require that kind of process to further explore the balance of the game, then sorry you are an idiot. The game is new, and certain imbalances and over effective units/strategys are somewhat obvious. We can hold out on the grand committees and microscopes for another year... right now I think the endless amount of games we are watching shows us more then enough trends to have these discussions.
You are just angry at how Idra trounced on Day9 and made him look bad. Period.
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On May 06 2011 12:29 gregnog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 11:21 ambientmf wrote:
If Idra would stop speaking of balance like a whiny teenager, then maybe Day9 would take what he says about balance seriously. I completely agree with Day9 that it would take a lot of data, thorough analysis and time to determine absolutely what is or is not balanced. Idra just rages and name-calls lesser players. What why intelligent people don't take anything Idra says seriously...
Q-fucking-Q. Just another foreverbronze. If you think the current state of SC2 is so balanced, so close to perfection that it would require that kind of process to further explore the balance of the game, then sorry you are an idiot. The game is new, and certain imbalances and over effective units/strategys are somewhat obvious. We can hold out on the grand committees and microscopes for another year... right now I think the endless amount of games we are watching shows us more then enough trends to have these discussions. You are just angry at how Idra trounced on Day9 and made him look bad. Period.
Your name says it all.
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On May 06 2011 08:41 randplaty wrote:
There's nothing fundamentally broken or imbalanced about a guessing game.
Guessing games = less skill needed because it revolves around luck. It's unfair for a newbie to beat a pro but if you are playing a coin flip game (like sc2 is for higher level zergs right now) then it can happen...that's why it's not fair.
If sc players wanted to play a luck-based game then they'd play poker.
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hmm, quick question that i'd be interested in the responses of people. I noticed during the live stream the chat was really anti-tyler during him v incontrol, but the forum posts seem to be more pro-tyler overall (not completely just slightly favoring). Is that because of 1. the people in the chat are a completely different audience than those in the forums. or 2. have more people reflected on the argument and changed. I'm leaning towards both. I think tyler sounded bad when trying to explain it live, but when people thought of his argument they realized BOTH sides have good points.
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On May 06 2011 13:10 ronpaul012 wrote:
hmm, quick question that i'd be interested in the responses of people. I noticed during the live stream the chat was really anti-tyler during him v incontrol, but the forum posts seem to be more pro-tyler overall (not completely just slightly favoring). Is that because of 1. the people in the chat are a completely different audience than those in the forums. or 2. have more people reflected on the argument and changed. I'm leaning towards both. I think tyler sounded bad when trying to explain it live, but when people thought of his argument they realized BOTH sides have good points.
For me, it's probably the first time in the history of the show when Tyler and Inc have argued where I come down completely on Inc's side. I'm not 100% sure Tyler is on the wrong side...but the way he explained it on the podcast made me think he is.
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On May 06 2011 12:36 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 12:29 gregnog wrote:On May 06 2011 11:21 ambientmf wrote:
If Idra would stop speaking of balance like a whiny teenager, then maybe Day9 would take what he says about balance seriously. I completely agree with Day9 that it would take a lot of data, thorough analysis and time to determine absolutely what is or is not balanced. Idra just rages and name-calls lesser players. What why intelligent people don't take anything Idra says seriously...
Q-fucking-Q. Just another foreverbronze. If you think the current state of SC2 is so balanced, so close to perfection that it would require that kind of process to further explore the balance of the game, then sorry you are an idiot. The game is new, and certain imbalances and over effective units/strategys are somewhat obvious. We can hold out on the grand committees and microscopes for another year... right now I think the endless amount of games we are watching shows us more then enough trends to have these discussions. You are just angry at how Idra trounced on Day9 and made him look bad. Period. Your name says it all.
Is that good or bad? I'm confused 
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On May 06 2011 13:14 Corrupted wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 13:10 ronpaul012 wrote:
hmm, quick question that i'd be interested in the responses of people. I noticed during the live stream the chat was really anti-tyler during him v incontrol, but the forum posts seem to be more pro-tyler overall (not completely just slightly favoring). Is that because of 1. the people in the chat are a completely different audience than those in the forums. or 2. have more people reflected on the argument and changed. I'm leaning towards both. I think tyler sounded bad when trying to explain it live, but when people thought of his argument they realized BOTH sides have good points. For me, it's probably the first time in the history of the show when Tyler and Inc have argued where I come down completely on Inc's side. I'm not 100% sure Tyler is on the wrong side...but the way he explained it on the podcast made me think he is.
i dont think tyler was wrong, just he kind of went about it in the wrong way, then got flustered and couldnt argue. i know the feeling, you have a view and feel you are right, yet you cant explain it right, and someone you are arguing against is shutting down your points and proving your points wrong, even though your points dont quite say what you want them to and you cant put thoughts into words.
While i think inc was right, i also think tyler had a good pov. colbi maybe should have said more, but by saying what he did he wasnt in the wrong at all
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Incholesterol is using Teamliquid forums to indirectly make TEAM LIQUID look bad. He said "We invited and they Didn't want to play. When he should have said that they invited and because of latency issues, didn't play. If you watch the vid again you hear Inc correct himself on this detail more than once.
User was warned for this post
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On May 06 2011 08:30 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:28 vojnik wrote:On May 06 2011 08:21 branflakes14 wrote:On May 06 2011 08:15 ch4ppi wrote:
I just want to applaud Idra. I think his thought process about the fast buildtime of Spines would really improve the game, because ás a Zerg u could react to attacks. I dont think it would tip the balance in any way, because it would just make timing attacks easier to parry. And if Zealot build time was 5 seconds Protoss would be able to react to attacks better. Only seeing the proposed change from your side of things gets no one anywhere. yes because zerg has such awesome all-ins that protoss cannot deny with FF right? Imagine if Photon Cannons only cost 100 minerals, didn't require a Pylon or a Forge, and Probes could fly. That is what a Drone being dropped out of an Overlord spewing creep would be if build time was reduced.
Imagine if Warp Prisms existed. Oh wait...
Though, to be honest, I think that Spine Crawler Drops becoming more of a legitimate strategy would probably be good for the metagame, while also making for a LOT better entertainment for the sake of eSports.
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It seems odd you'd type out his name as "Incholesterol" considering how insanely built Geoff is, he can bench something like 650lb. That's literally 5 of me.
So I guess I just don't really get it, are you jealous you aren't benching 600+ pounds with a bangin' hot girlfriend getting paid to play a video game, or are you genuinely concerned about Geoff's cholesterol levels (which I can only assume are relatively normal given how physically fit he is)?
I'm sure he appreciates the concern O.o?
In any event, what was said was a neutral response. It stated facts from both sides. It is fundamentally impossible for either side to look bad from it. It was only public outcry and rampant hysteria that made any party look bad.
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On May 06 2011 13:42 toolwerx wrote:
Incholesterol is using Teamliquid forums to indirectly make TEAM LIQUID look bad. He said "We invited and they Didn't want to play. When he should have said that they invited and because of latency issues, didn't play. If you watch the vid again you hear Inc correct himself on this detail more than once.
Huh? Then in your not so smart logic, Tyler indirectly made EG look bad when he said, "Liquid showed interest, but EG chose not to accommodate us.(Verbatim)" Not agreeing with what you said, so I don't think Tyler tried to make EG look bad.
Have you even read the EG MC thread?
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First off, I'm listening to SotG right now, and everyone blew this shit sooo far out of proportion it's insane. The argument wasn't that heated, sure Geoff called Teeler a "stupid motherfucker", but they're friends and friends can say shit like that and get away with it. It literally happens all. the. time...
Anyway, as much as I hate saying it (probably the first time I've disagreed with Tyler), I think Tyler is being silly. Colbi obviously didn't say what he did to make Team Liquid look bad (I did read the thread), and everyone who should matter to TL (I don't know, maybe sponsors read threads, tournament organizers, etc.) is probably smart enough to realize that. Bashing TL, even indirectly, helps no one, least of all EG. They need TL as a platform to present projects, just like every other organization involved in E-sports.
Saying he should have presented both sides is definitely a little weird, and I fail to see why thats a concern, unless, and I think this is Tyler's issue, the communities thoughts on this specific issue are really that important to him. It's not like we all read that and went "oh shit, TL sucks, time to rag on them and visit EG's website for all the SC news that's important to me" Lol wut? Besides, TL has it's own public relations ideas and people, they can handle something like this.
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I'm actually kind of shocked that people are supporting Tyler, and berating Incontrol on that discussion they had. Incontrol made valied points, shot down every point Tyler had, and Tyler spiraled further and further down and his rants where down right wrong and desperate. I'd like someone who supports Tyler on the stuff he said to actually break it down for me, so I can understand why some people back him in this.
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EPT
