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On May 06 2011 16:47 MattTBK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:35 WillyReturnStroke wrote:
I think Tyler had reason to be upset. IdrA said that both sides weren't explained, not just Team Liquid. This is true, EG's side wasn't explained either, but it should have be obvious that the statement made Team Liquid look bad. I think that Tyler may have gotten a little to heated but I'd be upset as well. Leaving out information is as bad as lying when it negatively portrays one side. How is Colbi saying, TL was invited but they declined trying to make TL look bad? That is about as neutral as you can be. That was like 15 minutes of the argument was that Tyler was saying he shouldn't be neutral. Now what Tyler says actually has a negative approach to it, Saying that TL showed interest but EG wouldn't accommodate them. I don't see how anyone could interpret what Colbi said as an attempt to make TL look bad.
I don't think you understand the point tyler was trying to make.
Think about it like if you were at a birthday party, and you don't see your friend John there. You ask the host "John isn't coming?". He responds "Oh i invited John but he decided not to come."
Wouldn't it be better if host said "John can't make it because his car broke down" if he knew the information why he wasn't coming?
It makes TL seem like dicks when you just say "we invited them but theyre not coming" without explaining why when you know the reason.
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On May 06 2011 16:02 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 15:55 SirKibbleX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 15:40 DoomsVille wrote:
Bad day for esports. Lost a ton of respect for day9, tyler and incontrol. Sad face. I think I lost some respect for iNcontrol for not trying to move away from the issue when he was obviously ahead. Tyler's argument could use work but he showed some incredible restraint in not becoming noticably heated even through iNc's apparent aggression and slightly better articulation. I think I gained some respect for IdrA though. If someone really, truly, believes something, even if it is unpopular, and tries to support it with clear, logical evidence through others' arguments to the contrary, it always impresses me. Whether or not IdrA is correct, he still makes some good arguments for racial imbalance. One has to wonder whether he plays Zerg because he actually likes the race or if he wishes to feign possessing more skill than he actually has. + Show Spoiler +
Maybe iNcontrol's debate skill has been rubbing off on IdrA but either way I was still impressed that he managed to baffle Day9 and force him to admit his lack of experience in actual top-level SC2 gameplay. Day9 has been too busy casting and studying to bring the full force of his overwhelming knowledge and experience to bear in his gameplay. No loss of respect there.
Interesting point. I wonder what idra would do if he started winning everything? I mean the guy clearly enjoys claiming underdog status, I wonder what would he would do if he were playing a race that is clearly superior. He always seems to argue from a defensive standpoint regardless on whether it makes sense or not. I'm not saying his points aren't valid, just that his attitude is way too defensive.
Idra always seems to claim the victim status in situations. If he's beaten, it's often by players worse than him (I'm paraphrasing things I've heard him say). I think his recent banning is another classic example of this: He doesn't seem to be capable of acknowledging that he could be wrong with his personal attack on another player, but instead incites people to PM mods on his behalf. Then turns his stream off in a huff. How mature.
It's generally a poor show all round by him, and seriously unprofessional. He's abut the worst ambassador for Esports I can think of, you just have to look at the wave of unrest he creates in his wake. Sure, some personality from players is a good thing, in fact, a great thing, and should be welcomed. But petulance, passive aggressive excuses and ad hominem attacks should be dealt with before they become the norm. If it were any other sport, he would probably be fined thousands of dollars.
I also think that's why Day9 didn't stand a chance in their balance 'debate': Idra was being too emotive, and even if a valid alternative to the problem was presented to him, he would have dismissed it out of hand, so firmly entrenched is he in his underdog/victim status.
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On May 06 2011 04:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 03:45 MorroW wrote:
what idra said about scouting and responding makes perfect sense to me that's just a succinct description of how zergs generally lose games. idra did that well. but the issue is balance. how do you go from describing how zergs lose games to saying the game is imbalanced? it's not a discussion fit for the podcast. there are some parallels in academia. in science, you haven't proven something until you've proven something through rigid scientific method that has been peer-reviewed. in math, you haven't proven something until you've done the numbers. even in lit/phil/hist etc, you have to do tons of research and write a comprehensive paper. an academic would never get too invested in a discussion that isn't referring to work that hasn't already been done. if it's all about work that needs to be done, then either do the work or stop talking about it. now, idra has certainly done a lot of great work, and gathered some good evidence, that could be used for a discussion on balance. but it's a drop in the bucket. i guess he feels it's enough to make any future work irrelevant and sean doesnt. ---- the excessively argumentative nature of some of these discussions is really hurting the show and im going to purposely try to avoid it. debates that aren't seen through to the very end are worthless (and we can never do that unless it's an incredibly simple issue). they accomplish nothing. one goal of the show is to extract as much useful knowledge as possible out of our pillars and guests. argument and debate are absolutely horrible formats for doing that. especially when debaters get more concerned with winning a debate than understanding their opponent's position. that's inimical to spreading information. it truly encourages one guy on the show to stop someone else on the show from getting their thoughts out so for example, every single one of idra's insights about zerg could be shared without throwing him in a debate against someone who thinks that we can't presently conclude that the game is imbalanced. and i think they can be shared much more efficiently and pleasantly without debate. any time the pillars and guests on the show talk about anything, that's all we have to do is make good points, provide good insights. and then people listening can decide whatever they want. of course, we should be able to engage with each other and criticize each other's points, but debate is a useless extra dimension, that can only detract from constructive discourse
Right on spot imo, all these balance discussion are just goign in circle since a few month now, nobody wants to consider the point of view of others.
On the other side, I think IdrA's behavior toward Day9 was more a way to defend himself from previous show, where he presented the very same arguments and got rolled other by you, incontrol, and Day, who argued that he would troll anyone who talk about balance.
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I usually zones out when Idra starts ventiong about zerg imbalance and has been a great follower of the Day9 model but i was really impressed by Idra in the last show. He put forward real arguments and issues and Day9 could not really give any coherent answer.
IdrA boiled down the zergs weakness really well, lack of scouting early game and no all-around defense build always leaves you weak to all-ins. Sean was showing his absolute unwillingness to discuss balance and criticize Blizzard. Constantly saying he disagreed but not being able to repsond to the arguments made his case look really weak.
Interesting to see someone challenging Sean for once, he prefers to preach alone in his dailies and i got the feeling in this show he was mostly concerned with being politicly correct rather than discussing balance.
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On May 06 2011 17:05 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:47 MattTBK wrote:On May 06 2011 16:35 WillyReturnStroke wrote:
I think Tyler had reason to be upset. IdrA said that both sides weren't explained, not just Team Liquid. This is true, EG's side wasn't explained either, but it should have be obvious that the statement made Team Liquid look bad. I think that Tyler may have gotten a little to heated but I'd be upset as well. Leaving out information is as bad as lying when it negatively portrays one side. How is Colbi saying, TL was invited but they declined trying to make TL look bad? That is about as neutral as you can be. That was like 15 minutes of the argument was that Tyler was saying he shouldn't be neutral. Now what Tyler says actually has a negative approach to it, Saying that TL showed interest but EG wouldn't accommodate them. I don't see how anyone could interpret what Colbi said as an attempt to make TL look bad. I don't think you understand the point tyler was trying to make. Think about it like if you were at a birthday party, and you don't see your friend John there. You ask the host "John isn't coming?". He responds "Oh i invited John but he decided not to come." Wouldn't it be better if host said "John can't make it because his car broke down" if he knew the information why he wasn't coming? It makes TL seem like dicks when you just say "we invited them but theyre not coming" without explaining why when you know the reason.
I agree with this. For those that don't understand our point, read this. Good analogy.
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On May 06 2011 15:40 DoomsVille wrote:
Bad day for esports. Lost a ton of respect for day9, tyler and incontrol.
People don't seem to realize how much easier it is to criticize and see whats wrong with the game, than to think of ways to circumvent those problems. Do people really expect Day9 to come up with a solid argument to IdrA? Day9 was trying to explain that there may be ways of indirectly dealing with these "imbalances." How can you force Day9 to come up with a strategy on the spot like that. It's so easy to say whats wrong with the game. The game is still changing and people just need to look at things differently and think outside of the box, and has always been a theme in Day9's dailies.
I admire IdrA and think he's very clear and straightforward. I actually quite like his personality, but it really shocks me to see that people can be so swayed by how people say things, instead of the content.
Just like Tyler and iNcontroL. I'm a big fan of both, and could see both sides to the argument. iNcontroL is clear and quick witted with his arguments as usual and Tyler's arguments during SotG did sound a bit forced. But if someone actually thought about where Tyler is coming from and the core of his statement, it's actually quite reasonable. I'm sure what Tyler said would be better understood if we were in his shoes.
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On May 06 2011 16:02 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 15:55 SirKibbleX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 15:40 DoomsVille wrote:
Bad day for esports. Lost a ton of respect for day9, tyler and incontrol. Sad face. I think I lost some respect for iNcontrol for not trying to move away from the issue when he was obviously ahead. Tyler's argument could use work but he showed some incredible restraint in not becoming noticably heated even through iNc's apparent aggression and slightly better articulation. I think I gained some respect for IdrA though. If someone really, truly, believes something, even if it is unpopular, and tries to support it with clear, logical evidence through others' arguments to the contrary, it always impresses me. Whether or not IdrA is correct, he still makes some good arguments for racial imbalance. One has to wonder whether he plays Zerg because he actually likes the race or if he wishes to feign possessing more skill than he actually has. + Show Spoiler +
Maybe iNcontrol's debate skill has been rubbing off on IdrA but either way I was still impressed that he managed to baffle Day9 and force him to admit his lack of experience in actual top-level SC2 gameplay. Day9 has been too busy casting and studying to bring the full force of his overwhelming knowledge and experience to bear in his gameplay. No loss of respect there.
Interesting point. I wonder what idra would do if he started winning everything? I mean the guy clearly enjoys claiming underdog status, I wonder what would he would do if he were playing a race that is clearly superior. He always seems to argue from a defensive standpoint regardless on whether it makes sense or not. I'm not saying his points aren't valid, just that his attitude is way too defensive.
Idra comes from such a defensive standpoint its almost like he knows hes wrong (or other people will perceive it as being wrong at least)
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On May 06 2011 16:56 Inky87 wrote:
Seriously can't believe people think Idra was right for that balance discussion with Day9. It was like 45 minutes of "It's this way. Tell me I'm wrong, Day9." And the thing is, Day9 actually cares about being explaining himself clearly. All Idra did was make blanket statements. You can't have a useful discussion with that.
I agree idra uses absolutes in his arguments, you cant have a good discussion by using absolutes there arent really many absolutes in the world of starcraft in terms of balance discussion and strategies. saying zerg CANT scout early game, or zerg CANT all in, or zerg Cant be aggressive.
Zerg doesnt have a build that counters everything. The argument got really pathetic when idra stated, that zerg either has to have a build thats safe against everything or needs to beable to see constantly what their opponent is doing to counter it. That is not true for any race and thats just not how the game works, as much as he says its true for terran and protoss it just isnt there are always weakness's in every strategy, we have seen how the 3 gate sentry expand is weak against roach ling aggression as of recent as well as early hydra play. Its really disheartening to see that so many people agree with him
Its because most people would prefer to just beleive that their race is imbalanced and there is nothign they can do about it then try and work something out to fix it. Its so much easier to blame external factors then your own mistakes.
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Honestly when i read the statement that Teamliquid declined the tourney, i didn't think anything more of it than that they probably had a good reason not to participate.
Why is this such a big deal.
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OMG IdrA is such a little B. "I play harder so I must be better" LOLZ First of all how does he know how much others practice? He doesn't. Didn't he quit the pro house scene because they practice too much? Seems like he doesn't. Not to mention practice is a small fraction of success - mind and ability are far more important and IdrA mind is weak like a baby's not a winners and his ability may not be the best. Much mistakes from what I've seen, not to mention quiting in matches. I like how Inncontrol asked him weakest race in SC1, picked not only race he played, of course, but race generally regarded as OP was weakest is his mind. Pathetic, I'll never be a fan.
mod edit: stop the useless unrelated whining please
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On May 06 2011 17:50 DAVEsc2 wrote:
Honestly when i read the statement that Teamliquid declined the tourney, i didn't think anything more of it than that they probably had a good reason not to participate.
Why is this such a big deal.
because liquid wanted to participate if the rules would be a bit fair for the players from korea. and eg did not want to chage their rules 
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On May 06 2011 15:40 DoomsVille wrote:
Bad day for esports. Lost a ton of respect for day9, tyler and incontrol.
Just addressing the loss of respect for day9 here, but if we exchanged this situation and said back in BW: Protoss are super weak against Zerg and the matchup is so imblanced. Would you have lost respect for someone who disagreed and said "I think there is a solution, we just need to figure it out though I don't have the answer at hand."
Then lo and behold, a year later someone comes along and changes the match-up after having figured out the solution.
You could have lost all the respect in the world for the person, but that didn't in the end make them any less correct. Sometimes, you just have to wait for the evolution of an idea. Just because an idea hasn't had its proof discovered doesn't make it incorrect.
As for Tyler and Geoff, they obviously could have approached their conversation in a much better way. I inherently agree with Tyler, when you come into someone's house, you should show them the utmost respect possible. That isn't to say EG should have accomodated TL, but they certainly could have disclosed the non-participation in a favorable way.
"We approached TL to participate. Though interested, logistical requirements resulted in their declining at this time."
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On May 06 2011 17:42 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:56 Inky87 wrote:
Seriously can't believe people think Idra was right for that balance discussion with Day9. It was like 45 minutes of "It's this way. Tell me I'm wrong, Day9." And the thing is, Day9 actually cares about being explaining himself clearly. All Idra did was make blanket statements. You can't have a useful discussion with that. I agree idra uses absolutes in his arguments, you cant have a good discussion by using absolutes there arent really many absolutes in the world of starcraft in terms of balance discussion and strategies. saying zerg CANT scout early game, or zerg CANT all in, or zerg Cant be aggressive. Zerg doesnt have a build that counters everything. The argument got really pathetic when idra stated, that zerg either has to have a build thats safe against everything or needs to beable to see constantly what their opponent is doing to counter it. That is not true for any race and thats just not how the game works, as much as he says its true for terran and protoss it just isnt there are always weakness's in every strategy, we have seen how the 3 gate sentry expand is weak against roach ling aggression as of recent as well as early hydra play. Its really disheartening to see that so many people agree with him Its because most people would prefer to just beleive that their race is imbalanced and there is nothign they can do about it then try and work something out to fix it. Its so much easier to blame external factors then your own mistakes.
IdrA never said that zergs need to constantly see what thier opponents is doing, he just said that there are to many potential all-ins able to kill zerg that zerg has no way to scout or prepare for, making it a pure guessing game. For IdrA this means the race is "imbalanced".
I actually found IdrA to present very valid arguments for once, and seeing how Sean was totally unable to even adress them beyond blankly diasagreeing (while claiming he did want to discuss balance) was refreshing for a chance. I think Tyler even agreed with IdrA (cant remember what he said exactly) but spinning it more like a game design flaw rather than balancing issue.
How big a weakness it is is more up for debate i guess, i mean we still see some zerg players performing well. But would have been nice of Sean to either admit to it being a weakness (imbalance if you will) of zerg or presenting arguments that it is not. I feel that Sean would agree to it being a weakness but would be unwilling to call it imbalance, if it proves to be to much of a weakness for zergs to overcome he might even call it a fatal weakness. But even then he would most likely not call it imbalanced, either because he just dislikes the term or because he wants to remain PC and on good terms with Blizzard.
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On May 06 2011 17:55 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 17:50 DAVEsc2 wrote:
Honestly when i read the statement that Teamliquid declined the tourney, i didn't think anything more of it than that they probably had a good reason not to participate.
Why is this such a big deal. because liquid wanted to participate if the rules would be a bit fair for the players from korea. and eg did not want to chage their rules
Yeah and that is a good reason, but in all honesty it's not really a bad statement. Atleast in my eyes i didn't see it as TL being rude and declining it. Even when everything i knew about it was that they declined it.
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On May 06 2011 18:08 DND_Enkil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 17:42 cheesemaster wrote:On May 06 2011 16:56 Inky87 wrote:
Seriously can't believe people think Idra was right for that balance discussion with Day9. It was like 45 minutes of "It's this way. Tell me I'm wrong, Day9." And the thing is, Day9 actually cares about being explaining himself clearly. All Idra did was make blanket statements. You can't have a useful discussion with that. I agree idra uses absolutes in his arguments, you cant have a good discussion by using absolutes there arent really many absolutes in the world of starcraft in terms of balance discussion and strategies. saying zerg CANT scout early game, or zerg CANT all in, or zerg Cant be aggressive. Zerg doesnt have a build that counters everything. The argument got really pathetic when idra stated, that zerg either has to have a build thats safe against everything or needs to beable to see constantly what their opponent is doing to counter it. That is not true for any race and thats just not how the game works, as much as he says its true for terran and protoss it just isnt there are always weakness's in every strategy, we have seen how the 3 gate sentry expand is weak against roach ling aggression as of recent as well as early hydra play. Its really disheartening to see that so many people agree with him Its because most people would prefer to just beleive that their race is imbalanced and there is nothign they can do about it then try and work something out to fix it. Its so much easier to blame external factors then your own mistakes. IdrA never said that zergs need to constantly see what thier opponents is doing, he just said that there are to many potential all-ins able to kill zerg that zerg has no way to scout or prepare for, making it a pure guessing game. For IdrA this means the race is "imbalanced". I actually found IdrA to present very valid arguments for once, and seeing how Sean was totally unable to even adress them beyond blankly diasagreeing (while claiming he did want to discuss balance) was refreshing for a chance. I think Tyler even agreed with IdrA (cant remember what he said exactly) but spinning it more like a game design flaw rather than balancing issue. How big a weakness it is is more up for debate i guess, i mean we still see some zerg players performing well. But would have been nice of Sean to either admit to it being a weakness (imbalance if you will) of zerg or presenting arguments that it is not. I feel that Sean would agree to it being a weakness but would be unwilling to call it imbalance, if it proves to be to much of a weakness for zergs to overcome he might even call it a fatal weakness. But even then he would most likely not call it imbalanced, either because he just dislikes the term or because he wants to remain PC and on good terms with Blizzard.
i dont think that zerg could scout terran all game long in bw. they also had marines u know
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How do other race have perfect scouting and 100% immunity to all-ins?
Terrans can wall, yeah, but I remember clearly some zergs baneling-bursting terrans on this map where you can wall 3 expand on a single choke. With only barracks, not little supply depots. If this kind of wall cant survive a zerg all-in, I dont see what can. Maybe Protoss forcefields, assuming you like playing on 1-base all game long. Also, good luck to send a probe scouting a zerg with glings in front of your ramp, controlling towers and with creep spread.
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On May 06 2011 17:50 tdt wrote:
OMG IdrA is such a little B. "I play harder so I must be better" LOLZ First of all how does he know how much others practice? He doesn't. Didn't he quit the pro house scene because they practice too much? Seems like he doesn't. Not to mention practice is a small fraction of success - mind and ability are far more important and IdrA mind is weak like a baby's not a winners and his ability may not be the best. Much mistakes from what I've seen, not to mention quiting in matches. I like how Inncontrol asked him weakest race in SC1, picked not only race he played, of course, but race generally regarded as OP was weakest is his mind. Pathetic, I'll never be a fan.
Is there anybody that would be willing to go report this for me? I'm unfortunately not cool enough to have the ability.
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On May 06 2011 18:13 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 18:08 DND_Enkil wrote:On May 06 2011 17:42 cheesemaster wrote:On May 06 2011 16:56 Inky87 wrote:
Seriously can't believe people think Idra was right for that balance discussion with Day9. It was like 45 minutes of "It's this way. Tell me I'm wrong, Day9." And the thing is, Day9 actually cares about being explaining himself clearly. All Idra did was make blanket statements. You can't have a useful discussion with that. I agree idra uses absolutes in his arguments, you cant have a good discussion by using absolutes there arent really many absolutes in the world of starcraft in terms of balance discussion and strategies. saying zerg CANT scout early game, or zerg CANT all in, or zerg Cant be aggressive. Zerg doesnt have a build that counters everything. The argument got really pathetic when idra stated, that zerg either has to have a build thats safe against everything or needs to beable to see constantly what their opponent is doing to counter it. That is not true for any race and thats just not how the game works, as much as he says its true for terran and protoss it just isnt there are always weakness's in every strategy, we have seen how the 3 gate sentry expand is weak against roach ling aggression as of recent as well as early hydra play. Its really disheartening to see that so many people agree with him Its because most people would prefer to just beleive that their race is imbalanced and there is nothign they can do about it then try and work something out to fix it. Its so much easier to blame external factors then your own mistakes. IdrA never said that zergs need to constantly see what thier opponents is doing, he just said that there are to many potential all-ins able to kill zerg that zerg has no way to scout or prepare for, making it a pure guessing game. For IdrA this means the race is "imbalanced". I actually found IdrA to present very valid arguments for once, and seeing how Sean was totally unable to even adress them beyond blankly diasagreeing (while claiming he did want to discuss balance) was refreshing for a chance. I think Tyler even agreed with IdrA (cant remember what he said exactly) but spinning it more like a game design flaw rather than balancing issue. How big a weakness it is is more up for debate i guess, i mean we still see some zerg players performing well. But would have been nice of Sean to either admit to it being a weakness (imbalance if you will) of zerg or presenting arguments that it is not. I feel that Sean would agree to it being a weakness but would be unwilling to call it imbalance, if it proves to be to much of a weakness for zergs to overcome he might even call it a fatal weakness. But even then he would most likely not call it imbalanced, either because he just dislikes the term or because he wants to remain PC and on good terms with Blizzard. i dont think that zerg could scout terran all game long in bw. they also had marines u know
The other part of the argument was that, in BW, Terran's way to kill a zerg were limited, and so the zerg could defend to it better, not to mention sunken colonies.
In SC2... well it's different.
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On May 06 2011 17:05 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:47 MattTBK wrote:On May 06 2011 16:35 WillyReturnStroke wrote:
I think Tyler had reason to be upset. IdrA said that both sides weren't explained, not just Team Liquid. This is true, EG's side wasn't explained either, but it should have be obvious that the statement made Team Liquid look bad. I think that Tyler may have gotten a little to heated but I'd be upset as well. Leaving out information is as bad as lying when it negatively portrays one side. How is Colbi saying, TL was invited but they declined trying to make TL look bad? That is about as neutral as you can be. That was like 15 minutes of the argument was that Tyler was saying he shouldn't be neutral. Now what Tyler says actually has a negative approach to it, Saying that TL showed interest but EG wouldn't accommodate them. I don't see how anyone could interpret what Colbi said as an attempt to make TL look bad. I don't think you understand the point tyler was trying to make. Think about it like if you were at a birthday party, and you don't see your friend John there. You ask the host "John isn't coming?". He responds "Oh i invited John but he decided not to come." Wouldn't it be better if host said "John can't make it because his car broke down" if he knew the information why he wasn't coming? It makes TL seem like dicks when you just say "we invited them but theyre not coming" without explaining why when you know the reason.
"John can't make it because he is in hospital being treated for an STI after his wife cheated on him"
Basically, its up to TL to share the reasons, not EG. If EG had given the reasons, and it had turned out that TL didn't want them shared then the shitstorm would have been much more massive than the current one.
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It was the first time i watched state of the game on the last episode. As a Zerg i thought the points Grack raised where completely valid. As much as I fucking <3 Day9, he just didn't seem to understand what Grack meant. The fundamental basic issue that he was pointing out is that Zerg is a guessing game against a competent opponent as hatchery scouting is easily denied by both Protoss and Terran, We don't have the ability to just "Hit CC hotkey, press c and aim at opponents base = profit" or make Hallucinations and Observers.
IdrA wasn't asking for Zerg to have a sweet buff like roach range 50 or something, he was just pointing out that scouting is near impossible against a competent opponent in the early game, and any Zerg that has played for even a short while knows this to be true.
Great episode and debate though, by no means am I hating on Day9, I still think he's awesome, he's just wrong about this one! 
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EPT
