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On May 06 2011 18:41 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 18:36 Tryxtira wrote:
I don't get why InControl and Tyler had this huge discussion in this show. I believe JP should have interupted them. The thing is, the argument should be held by the organisations and not by players in them. That's just wrong in my opinion. I agree, although it more seemed like tyler was talking about his oppinion on the matter , and that the EG players were trying to defend their organization
yeah. tyler was looking at it from a different pov and got nailed on his posts out of a mood.
whole thing didnt need to blow up like that. but gotta say i agree with some of the stuff tyler said in the end about evryone changing and only talking PR nowadays.
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On May 06 2011 19:00 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 18:55 Jakkerr wrote:On May 06 2011 17:08 DND_Enkil wrote:
I usually zones out when Idra starts ventiong about zerg imbalance and has been a great follower of the Day9 model but i was really impressed by Idra in the last show. He put forward real arguments and issues and Day9 could not really give any coherent answer.
IdrA boiled down the zergs weakness really well, lack of scouting early game and no all-around defense build always leaves you weak to all-ins. Sean was showing his absolute unwillingness to discuss balance and criticize Blizzard. Constantly saying he disagreed but not being able to repsond to the arguments made his case look really weak.
Interesting to see someone challenging Sean for once, he prefers to preach alone in his dailies and i got the feeling in this show he was mostly concerned with being politicly correct rather than discussing balance. No race has an all-around defense build if you ask me, an all around defense build without scouting is something like: drop 5+ spinecrawlers at ur natural and get a quick Evo chamber + 2 spore crawlers, obviously Idra doesn't want to do that but then he also shouldn't complain there isn't such a build :p. Although I do agree zerg has a hard time scouting terran. but I don't really see how zerg has a hard time scouting protoss. If you flie in an overlord at the right time the protoss has a zealot and a sentry, around this time the protoss is gonna drop down his next buildings, 1 sentry does like nothing to an overlord. Even if you don't trust the situation and drop down a bunch of spine crawlers because you aren't feeling safe ur still infront since ur opponent didn't expand at all yet. Too quote MC: he drone, drone,drone > me all in > he drone,drone,drone > me win There are units / mechanics in the terran and protoss arsenal that give them a edge on defense. Tanks / sentries are units that are most cost efficient in defense than in attack. (well on most maps for force field) For zerg, there are no defensive units. All units you have are as good attacking than defensive units. That is a fact, not to mention we have no wall in. You can arguably defend anything with a 3 gate expand. For the zerg to survive any kind of early all in, we need to scout it and react to it by producing enough units to crush our opponent, but not too much because counter attack is not an option in most of the games. That's why I think buffing zerg is such a bad idea: they would become just overpower. The problem is not zerg being underpower, but zerg lacking a defensive unit.
Dear WhiteDog,
I ask you as the poster child of an Idra fan, but other Zergs can join:
What is the safe build for Terran? Idra demands either perfect scouting or a build that is safe against every all-in and won't fall behind in economy. As a Terran, I want that, too. Please note, that scanning is not a feasable scouting method, as it won't give you all the details you need, because the radius is too small and my worker is killed faster by 2 lings than your drone. That means my early game scouting is comparable to the Zergs, so I feel I'm also entitled to the 'safe build that lets me enter the mid game on even terms'.
Please tell me how to be safe against 6 pool, 7RR, baneling bust and fast mutas while keeping up with the Zerg economy of a spanishiwa style opening.
I thank you for your time in advance.
'Sincerely'
Thrombozyt
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On May 06 2011 21:01 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 19:00 WhiteDog wrote:On May 06 2011 18:55 Jakkerr wrote:On May 06 2011 17:08 DND_Enkil wrote:
I usually zones out when Idra starts ventiong about zerg imbalance and has been a great follower of the Day9 model but i was really impressed by Idra in the last show. He put forward real arguments and issues and Day9 could not really give any coherent answer.
IdrA boiled down the zergs weakness really well, lack of scouting early game and no all-around defense build always leaves you weak to all-ins. Sean was showing his absolute unwillingness to discuss balance and criticize Blizzard. Constantly saying he disagreed but not being able to repsond to the arguments made his case look really weak.
Interesting to see someone challenging Sean for once, he prefers to preach alone in his dailies and i got the feeling in this show he was mostly concerned with being politicly correct rather than discussing balance. No race has an all-around defense build if you ask me, an all around defense build without scouting is something like: drop 5+ spinecrawlers at ur natural and get a quick Evo chamber + 2 spore crawlers, obviously Idra doesn't want to do that but then he also shouldn't complain there isn't such a build :p. Although I do agree zerg has a hard time scouting terran. but I don't really see how zerg has a hard time scouting protoss. If you flie in an overlord at the right time the protoss has a zealot and a sentry, around this time the protoss is gonna drop down his next buildings, 1 sentry does like nothing to an overlord. Even if you don't trust the situation and drop down a bunch of spine crawlers because you aren't feeling safe ur still infront since ur opponent didn't expand at all yet. Too quote MC: he drone, drone,drone > me all in > he drone,drone,drone > me win There are units / mechanics in the terran and protoss arsenal that give them a edge on defense. Tanks / sentries are units that are most cost efficient in defense than in attack. (well on most maps for force field) For zerg, there are no defensive units. All units you have are as good attacking than defensive units. That is a fact, not to mention we have no wall in. You can arguably defend anything with a 3 gate expand. For the zerg to survive any kind of early all in, we need to scout it and react to it by producing enough units to crush our opponent, but not too much because counter attack is not an option in most of the games. That's why I think buffing zerg is such a bad idea: they would become just overpower. The problem is not zerg being underpower, but zerg lacking a defensive unit. Dear WhiteDog, I ask you as the poster child of an Idra fan, but other Zergs can join: What is the safe build for Terran? Idra demands either perfect scouting or a build that is safe against every all-in and won't fall behind in economy. As a Terran, I want that, too. Please note, that scanning is not a feasable scouting method, as it won't give you all the details you need, because the radius is too small and my worker is killed faster by 2 lings than your drone. That means my early game scouting is comparable to the Zergs, so I feel I'm also entitled to the 'safe build that lets me enter the mid game on even terms'. Please tell me how to be safe against 6 pool, 7RR, baneling bust and fast mutas while keeping up with the Zerg economy of a spanishiwa style opening. I thank you for your time in advance. 'Sincerely' Thrombozyt
I stopped reading when you said the radius of the scan was too small...
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Worst sotg ever. You called Tasteless and asked him some generic GSL predictions questions then made him witness e-sports politics petty drama and idra's imbalance "discussion" lol
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Never take up law again Tyler, your soul would be crushed by the things people say and do.
You can't trust people anymore 
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On May 06 2011 21:01 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 19:00 WhiteDog wrote:On May 06 2011 18:55 Jakkerr wrote:On May 06 2011 17:08 DND_Enkil wrote:
I usually zones out when Idra starts ventiong about zerg imbalance and has been a great follower of the Day9 model but i was really impressed by Idra in the last show. He put forward real arguments and issues and Day9 could not really give any coherent answer.
IdrA boiled down the zergs weakness really well, lack of scouting early game and no all-around defense build always leaves you weak to all-ins. Sean was showing his absolute unwillingness to discuss balance and criticize Blizzard. Constantly saying he disagreed but not being able to repsond to the arguments made his case look really weak.
Interesting to see someone challenging Sean for once, he prefers to preach alone in his dailies and i got the feeling in this show he was mostly concerned with being politicly correct rather than discussing balance. No race has an all-around defense build if you ask me, an all around defense build without scouting is something like: drop 5+ spinecrawlers at ur natural and get a quick Evo chamber + 2 spore crawlers, obviously Idra doesn't want to do that but then he also shouldn't complain there isn't such a build :p. Although I do agree zerg has a hard time scouting terran. but I don't really see how zerg has a hard time scouting protoss. If you flie in an overlord at the right time the protoss has a zealot and a sentry, around this time the protoss is gonna drop down his next buildings, 1 sentry does like nothing to an overlord. Even if you don't trust the situation and drop down a bunch of spine crawlers because you aren't feeling safe ur still infront since ur opponent didn't expand at all yet. Too quote MC: he drone, drone,drone > me all in > he drone,drone,drone > me win There are units / mechanics in the terran and protoss arsenal that give them a edge on defense. Tanks / sentries are units that are most cost efficient in defense than in attack. (well on most maps for force field) For zerg, there are no defensive units. All units you have are as good attacking than defensive units. That is a fact, not to mention we have no wall in. You can arguably defend anything with a 3 gate expand. For the zerg to survive any kind of early all in, we need to scout it and react to it by producing enough units to crush our opponent, but not too much because counter attack is not an option in most of the games. That's why I think buffing zerg is such a bad idea: they would become just overpower. The problem is not zerg being underpower, but zerg lacking a defensive unit. Dear WhiteDog, I ask you as the poster child of an Idra fan, but other Zergs can join: What is the safe build for Terran? Idra demands either perfect scouting or a build that is safe against every all-in and won't fall behind in economy. As a Terran, I want that, too. Please note, that scanning is not a feasable scouting method, as it won't give you all the details you need, because the radius is too small and my worker is killed faster by 2 lings than your drone. That means my early game scouting is comparable to the Zergs, so I feel I'm also entitled to the 'safe build that lets me enter the mid game on even terms'. Please tell me how to be safe against 6 pool, 7RR, baneling bust and fast mutas while keeping up with the Zerg economy of a spanishiwa style opening. I thank you for your time in advance. 'Sincerely' Thrombozyt
You do realize that we can create SCVs AND units at the same time while zergs can't. Even if we are worried about zerg cheeses, are our economies affected? No. So I have no idea how you would say that we are unable to keep up with spanishiwa's style opening.(we can even build a bloody CC in base if u want to catch up with that kind of opening to get more SCVs out faster)
scan radius too small...... Did you know that the scan radius is actually as large as the creep that is laid down by the initial hatchery?
They do mean early game as in AFTER the initial drone scout, when the terran has actually walled off.
6 pool- scout after supply depot finished. If it's a four player map, u can easily wall off with ur first two supply depots and barracks, I don't see a problem there.
7RR and fast mutas- I assume u mean the fast mutas as in one base mutas. You can leave ur initial scouting SCV at their natural and if they dont take it early then you would know something is up right?.
Baneling bust- If you are so scared of their baneling bust... u can just place every single building u have at the ramp and I think you would be just fine.
I don't have any idea why you are so worried about those openings...
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On May 06 2011 21:01 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 19:00 WhiteDog wrote:On May 06 2011 18:55 Jakkerr wrote:On May 06 2011 17:08 DND_Enkil wrote:
I usually zones out when Idra starts ventiong about zerg imbalance and has been a great follower of the Day9 model but i was really impressed by Idra in the last show. He put forward real arguments and issues and Day9 could not really give any coherent answer.
IdrA boiled down the zergs weakness really well, lack of scouting early game and no all-around defense build always leaves you weak to all-ins. Sean was showing his absolute unwillingness to discuss balance and criticize Blizzard. Constantly saying he disagreed but not being able to repsond to the arguments made his case look really weak.
Interesting to see someone challenging Sean for once, he prefers to preach alone in his dailies and i got the feeling in this show he was mostly concerned with being politicly correct rather than discussing balance. No race has an all-around defense build if you ask me, an all around defense build without scouting is something like: drop 5+ spinecrawlers at ur natural and get a quick Evo chamber + 2 spore crawlers, obviously Idra doesn't want to do that but then he also shouldn't complain there isn't such a build :p. Although I do agree zerg has a hard time scouting terran. but I don't really see how zerg has a hard time scouting protoss. If you flie in an overlord at the right time the protoss has a zealot and a sentry, around this time the protoss is gonna drop down his next buildings, 1 sentry does like nothing to an overlord. Even if you don't trust the situation and drop down a bunch of spine crawlers because you aren't feeling safe ur still infront since ur opponent didn't expand at all yet. Too quote MC: he drone, drone,drone > me all in > he drone,drone,drone > me win There are units / mechanics in the terran and protoss arsenal that give them a edge on defense. Tanks / sentries are units that are most cost efficient in defense than in attack. (well on most maps for force field) For zerg, there are no defensive units. All units you have are as good attacking than defensive units. That is a fact, not to mention we have no wall in. You can arguably defend anything with a 3 gate expand. For the zerg to survive any kind of early all in, we need to scout it and react to it by producing enough units to crush our opponent, but not too much because counter attack is not an option in most of the games. That's why I think buffing zerg is such a bad idea: they would become just overpower. The problem is not zerg being underpower, but zerg lacking a defensive unit. Dear WhiteDog, I ask you as the poster child of an Idra fan, but other Zergs can join: What is the safe build for Terran? Idra demands either perfect scouting or a build that is safe against every all-in and won't fall behind in economy. As a Terran, I want that, too. Please note, that scanning is not a feasable scouting method, as it won't give you all the details you need, because the radius is too small and my worker is killed faster by 2 lings than your drone. That means my early game scouting is comparable to the Zergs, so I feel I'm also entitled to the 'safe build that lets me enter the mid game on even terms'. Please tell me how to be safe against 6 pool, 7RR, baneling bust and fast mutas while keeping up with the Zerg economy of a spanishiwa style opening. I thank you for your time in advance. 'Sincerely' Thrombozyt
Bringing up 6 pool as a terran... come on, mate.
Incidently, a scan, by happy coincidence, is exactly the radius of the creep given off by 1 hatchery.
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It's funny how you all ride on the small detail-mistakes he made, but no one of you gets the real message, the message which is actually very very true.
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On May 06 2011 21:01 Thrombozyt wrote:
Please tell me how to be safe against 6 pool, 7RR, baneling bust and fast mutas while keeping up with the Zerg economy of a spanishiwa style opening.
I thank you for your time in advance.
'Sincerely'
Thrombozyt
+ Show Spoiler +Are you kidding me? 6 pool and 7RR comes off 1 base. What does this has to do with Spanishiwa? Are you completely clueless????
complaining about 7RR? What league are you in? When you don't see a fast hatchery make a bunker + marauders + marines , make sure to have scvs pulled when they come. When they don't come with roaches then scout with your "3th mule" and confirm 1 base mutas.
Baneling bust is 1 midgame allin zerg has. Do I have to list all the allins Terran has that aren't scoutable?
Sincerely,
You dont know how this game is played.
Not going to delete this message but just spoiler it. I shouldn't have reacted to his "statement".
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On May 06 2011 21:36 LXenJin wrote:
You do realize that we can create SCVs AND units at the same time while zergs can't.
Make one drone per base every 17 seconds, use the rest of larvae for lings or whatever. Tadaaa, you're building identically to a T.
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On May 06 2011 22:06 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 21:36 LXenJin wrote:
You do realize that we can create SCVs AND units at the same time while zergs can't. Make one drone per base every 17 seconds, use the rest of larvae for lings or whatever. Tadaaa, you're building identically to a T.
And do zergs want to build identically to a T?
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No it's inefficient. They can though. If you don't have the experience to know when to make drones vs army, it could be a good idea.
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I dont understand how idra complains about terran all-ins, when protoss have been dealing with them since the dawn of time. Honestly, zerg early game scouting is BETTER then protoss. We both rely on poking up the ramp with probe/lings, but at least zerg can choose to fly an overlord in. And have fun killing that drone early with a sentry unless you want to get a stalker out first and reveal your build... meanwhile zerg easily disposes of the probe with their first 2 lings. And zerg is much better at holding all-ins then protoss. Idra wants to play completely economically and skip most precautions and still be able to hold an all-in. That is a ridiculous demand. He basically wants zerg to be able to be ahead both economically, in army and in tech and hold anything. Ok idra, that's balanced lol
Protoss early game scouting is so bad and the all-ins are so good against them that a STANDARD protoss PvT build is actually RUSHING FOR OBSERVERS. You literaly get a single gate, and get the earliest robo/observer possible out in order to not die. Give me a break idra. And you can't react in time? How about protoss, sitting on 1 or 2 gateways, maybe even without warp gate tech, seeing marines/marauders/banshees/line of SCVs/etc coming towards you? Zerg can get out the units they need much faster because of spawn larva, and already have the building to make spines, when we can't even make cannons because no one gets forge that early unless it's a FE. Spine crawler build time? Try forge + cannon build time. All your units also have lower build time then ours and you can get them out in higher numbers quicker.
And it's not even just terran. Zerg all-ins are SOO good against protoss (I'm looking at you losira vs. alicia, or all the things july has done), they're actually better then PvZ all-ins, or at least just as good. And what matchup is 4 gate so ridiculously good and hard to hold in that blizzard had to patch it? That's right, PvP, not PvZ. And this isn't even just in early game. You zergs think you have trouble dealing with colossi without over making corruptors? Try playing PvP past the 4 gate....
And I hate how he talked about "I'm supposed to beat these players". Right, that's why you were complaining about race imbalance when you were making it to the round of 8 in the GSL Code S, the tournament with the best players in the world lol Fact of the matter is, Idra is a good player, but he's not as good as he thinks he is. He thinks that he's so good that a balanced game = he never loses unless he makes a huge mistake. Grow up please.
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On May 06 2011 21:07 YourMom wrote:
Worst sotg ever. You called Tasteless and asked him some generic GSL predictions questions then made him witness e-sports politics petty drama and idra's imbalance "discussion" lol
They called him to talk about GSL then said bye and left. After they started the balance discussion, Tasteless wanted to come back into the call to agree with Idra.
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On May 06 2011 22:01 gnutz wrote:
It's funny how you all ride on the small detail-mistakes he made, but no one of you gets the real message, the message which is actually very very true.
What are you talking about? That Terran isn't safe from every allin zerg can do?
IdrA doesn't want a game were he is safe against every allin or strategy, dumb people who listen to 1 podcast think that. Idra would be fine with 5 (unscoutable) allins if he had a strategy were he can defend 3 allins with 1 strategy and remove 2 strategies by scouting. Thus, not really scout the allin but scout and see what allin there won't come.
AND even if the Terran has 4 allins that are not scoutable, then it is unfair that zerg as defensive race has no possibility to defend against it.
This combined with the possibility that Terran can choose to not allin but also do heavy macro and thus everything between heavy macro and super allin. And there isn't a way for zerg to scout this on time to react.
Stop trying to focus on 1 aspect of the game. Even the stuff I wrote in this post are only addressing 10% at most about this subject.
Remember that the game isn't broken. But IdrA and other zerg feel that it is harder for our race to win 20 games in a row than for another race. And we try to find reasons. And I think IdrA is closing in on why.
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What is the evidence that it's harder for Zerg to win 20 games in a row?
Actually let me amend that: what is the evidence that Zerg can't win 20 games in a row? Because really, it doesn't matter if it's merely harder for them. No one really expects each race to be equally easy/difficult to play.
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Why Terran always early game all in vs Zerg ?
owait... because it's the easy way to beat Zerg because of their lack of response due to scout problems ?
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On May 06 2011 22:30 Yaotzin wrote:
What is the evidence that it's harder for Zerg to win 20 games in a row?
I have none, therefore I typed: "zerg feels that it is harder to win 20 games in a row."
I am also not a big fan of imbalance. And even if there is imbalance, it is probably very small. I also say that we should not look at a single game and then say if there is imbalance.
You know just like me that if a race has 49% to win and another race 51% to win solely based on the game design, eventually the race with 49% will get this feeling that they are not as strong as the other race. However, this is very hard to prove because there are soooo many other factors than game design.
I have made 3-4 posts in this thread now. And I do not like to go really into long discussions on the internet, because there are a couple guys with a Starcraft IQ of 70 that make you angry. I think I have pointed out my points and will leave it at that.
I can only keep repeating that I don't think the game is broken. But I think zerg is a weaker race. Sadly enough this game is played for many € and $.
Do you think somebody would care if a Diablo III character is weaker than another character? Probably people will play the weaker character more to prove how good they are...
EDIT: So many typo's...
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On May 06 2011 22:01 gnutz wrote:
It's funny how you all ride on the small detail-mistakes he made, but no one of you gets the real message, the message which is actually very very true.
which is ...?
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On May 06 2011 22:30 Yaotzin wrote:
What is the evidence that it's harder for Zerg to win 20 games in a row?
Actually let me amend that: what is the evidence that Zerg can't win 20 games in a row? Because really, it doesn't matter if it's merely harder for them. No one really expects each race to be equally easy/difficult to play.
What? If you don't care about racial balance, why are you even posting?
Of course it matters whether it's harder for them. That's all that the balance discussion is about. (Hint: If they can't win, that's also a case of it being harder for them.)
You are asking for proof that is by definition impossible to provide -- if you don't care about harder, you can always claim that it's possible, all zergs are just too bad.
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EPT
