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On May 06 2011 22:40 Koshi wrote:
I can only keep repeating that I don't think the game is broken. But I think zerg is a weaker race. Sadly enough this game is played for many € and $.
I'd guess so too, and the evidence does support that (or that it's way harder to achieve success with anyway), but going into the *why* of it is much much more murky. I'd like nothing more than some actual evidence on the whole scouting thing (because it could end all the moaning), but I haven't seen it.
Do you think somebody would care if a Diablo III character is weaker than another character? Probably people will play the weaker character more to prove how good they are...
You must not have played D2 :D Imba hammerdins...
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On May 06 2011 22:46 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 22:30 Yaotzin wrote:
What is the evidence that it's harder for Zerg to win 20 games in a row?
Actually let me amend that: what is the evidence that Zerg can't win 20 games in a row? Because really, it doesn't matter if it's merely harder for them. No one really expects each race to be equally easy/difficult to play. What? If you don't care about racial balance, why are you even posting? Of course it matters whether it's harder for them. That's all that the balance discussion is about. (Hint: If they can't win, that's also a case of it being harder for them.)
Uh, no. Terran is widely regarded as the hardest race to play in BW, but that doesn't mean it's UP. If anything it's the strongest race. Zerg's difficulties only matter if they literally cannot be overcome.
You are asking for proof that is by definition impossible to provide -- if you don't care about harder, you can always claim that it's possible, all zergs are just too bad.
Didn't say proof, said evidence. Yes proof is impossible, evidence isn't though.
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Day9 did a pretty bad job defending his position and replying to the complaints of Idra. I agree with day9s point of view but Idra made him look kinda speachless. It would be fun to discuss it with Idra myself if I could, I'm sure I could get the point through :p
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On May 06 2011 22:21 ffadicted wrote:
I dont understand how idra complains about terran all-ins, when protoss have been dealing with them since the dawn of time. Honestly, zerg early game scouting is BETTER then protoss. We both rely on poking up the ramp with probe/lings, but at least zerg can choose to fly an overlord in. And have fun killing that drone early with a sentry unless you want to get a stalker out first and reveal your build... meanwhile zerg easily disposes of the probe with their first 2 lings. And zerg is much better at holding all-ins then protoss. Idra wants to play completely economically and skip most precautions and still be able to hold an all-in. That is a ridiculous demand. He basically wants zerg to be able to be ahead both economically, in army and in tech and hold anything. Ok idra, that's balanced lol
Protoss early game scouting is so bad and the all-ins are so good against them that a STANDARD protoss PvT build is actually RUSHING FOR OBSERVERS. You literaly get a single gate, and get the earliest robo/observer possible out in order to not die. Give me a break idra. And you can't react in time? How about protoss, sitting on 1 or 2 gateways, maybe even without warp gate tech, seeing marines/marauders/banshees/line of SCVs/etc coming towards you? Zerg can get out the units they need much faster because of spawn larva, and already have the building to make spines, when we can't even make cannons because no one gets forge that early unless it's a FE. Spine crawler build time? Try forge + cannon build time. All your units also have lower build time then ours and you can get them out in higher numbers quicker.
And it's not even just terran. Zerg all-ins are SOO good against protoss (I'm looking at you losira vs. alicia, or all the things july has done), they're actually better then PvZ all-ins, or at least just as good. And what matchup is 4 gate so ridiculously good and hard to hold in that blizzard had to patch it? That's right, PvP, not PvZ. And this isn't even just in early game. You zergs think you have trouble dealing with colossi without over making corruptors? Try playing PvP past the 4 gate....
And I hate how he talked about "I'm supposed to beat these players". Right, that's why you were complaining about race imbalance when you were making it to the round of 8 in the GSL Code S, the tournament with the best players in the world lol Fact of the matter is, Idra is a good player, but he's not as good as he thinks he is. He thinks that he's so good that a balanced game = he never loses unless he makes a huge mistake. Grow up please.
It's very simple to deny overlord scouting and the earlier the zerg decides to sac his OL the worse he'll be economically. It's not a challenge for a sentry to kill a drone and showing 1 stalker hardly reveals what the protoss build is.
It's absurd to say a race that can wall in and FF block the entrance is worse at defending all-ins than zerg, where they can easily have their own ramp FF blocked and effectively lose the game.
Getting an observer is far faster than a zerg getting OL speed or an overseer. The fact that anti-air units come later for zerg also means banshee all-ins are far more effective against zerg than protoss.
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I thought day9 was clear in his point "I'm not going to argue, you're just ranting."
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On May 06 2011 22:18 Yaotzin wrote:
No it's inefficient. They can though. If you don't have the experience to know when to make drones vs army, it could be a good idea.
No, it's a bad idea. You'll lose to a decent attack because you don't have enough units, and you'll lose to a macro player because you have too many units.
Did you even pay attention to any of the earlier posts?
The reason terran and protoss can get away well with building both is because they have a clear defender's advantage: They can both wall off and attack from behind the wall. Terran can repair buildings. Protoss can delay pushes with sentries.
This is the reason why a roach rush is risky even against a macro opening: They don't need to blind counter it, they just need to see it *early enough* to get defenses up.
If you as a Zerg start building half an army early on, "just in case", you'll lose most of your games even at high diamond or any level of masters: Zerg doesn't have a defender's advantage, so you'll lose horribly against an unscouted all-in (e.g. marine+SCV or 2-base timing push), and you'll be way behind against a fast expanding opponent who is greedy.
This is why Zerg is called a reactive race: You need to decide between building units/drones *in response to what your opponent does*.
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On May 06 2011 22:52 redux46 wrote:
It's very simple to deny overlord scouting and the earlier the zerg decides to sac his OL the worse he'll be economically. It's not a challenge for a sentry to kill a drone and showing 1 stalker hardly reveals what the protoss build is.
Almost all scouting is rooted in economic sacrifice.
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Excellent response Koshi, I agree with you 100% and infact I would go further and say that I find people follow Day9 and support him blindly, but infact like others say, in his dailys he states this and that, but never has anyone to counter point him. He's not used to having someone who has full knowledge of the game make a better point than him. Day9 was given ample opportunities to bring his points to the table but he did not.
For everyone supporting Day9 on this particular discussion, I would say this. There is a reason why he does not discuss balance until it is patched. Think about it for a moment. Now with this piece of information about him, is he as credible as many of you hold him to be? That is why I do not listen to much about his reasoning.
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On May 06 2011 22:42 Drteeth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 22:01 gnutz wrote:
It's funny how you all ride on the small detail-mistakes he made, but no one of you gets the real message, the message which is actually very very true. which is ...?
OK.. I wasn't clear enough it seems. Idra in his "discussion" with day[9] complained that Zergs cannot scout in a fashion that tells them 100% what their opponent is doing. He claimed that this is an ability needed for Zerg to be played properly. Alternatively, he demanded a build, that keeps him safe from all the allins a Terran can do, while still being economic enough to keep up with a potential terran FE.
Personally I think that the existence of such a build (no matter the race) would be detrimental to the game and thank god noone has found such a build so far. Yet the Idra fanclub here in the thread acts as if such a build existed for Terran and Protoss, but not for Zerg. So I asked them to enlighten me by giving me a build that keeps me safe from every potential bullshit Zerg might throw at me while still keeping me up economically with the most greedy Zerg eco opening there is.
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"And I hate how he talked about "I'm supposed to beat these players". Right, that's why you were complaining about race imbalance when you were making it to the round of 8 in the GSL Code S, the tournament with the best players in the world lol Fact of the matter is, Idra is a good player, but he's not as good as he thinks he is. He thinks that he's so good that a balanced game = he never loses unless he makes a huge mistake. Grow up please."
Based on the matchup against Jinro, his complaints were validated. Even blizzard has acknowledged Jungle Basin was an unfair map. Close spawn positions on a map like metalopolis has also been disabled by every serious tournament.
When zergs were complaining about these issues most simply deemed it as whining, yet here we are and the fact is they were right.
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On May 06 2011 22:56 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 22:42 Drteeth wrote:On May 06 2011 22:01 gnutz wrote:
It's funny how you all ride on the small detail-mistakes he made, but no one of you gets the real message, the message which is actually very very true. which is ...? OK.. I wasn't clear enough it seems. Idra in his "discussion" with day[9] complained that Zergs cannot scout in a fashion that tells them 100% what their opponent is doing. He claimed that this is an ability needed for Zerg to be played properly. Alternatively, he demanded a build, that keeps him safe from all the allins a Terran can do, while still being economic enough to keep up with a potential terran FE. Personally I think that the existence of such a build (no matter the race) would be detrimental to the game and thank god noone has found such a build so far. Yet the Idra fanclub here in the thread acts as if such a build existed for Terran and Protoss, but not for Zerg. So I asked them to enlighten me by giving me a build that keeps me safe from every potential bullshit Zerg might throw at me while still keeping me up economically with the most greedy Zerg eco opening there is.
You're misrepresenting his argument.
There is no one build that is safe vs every cheese and as economic as the most greedy one. Nobody asks for that, nobody thinks that would be a good idea.
The question is whether you can choose a safe opening which allows you to react in time to *roughly keep up with* a greedy build, or whether you have to blindly guess early on and the outcome of this guess will either mean that you
- most likely lose outright if he went for early offense and you guessed wrong. (either you guessed he was macroing, or you simply had no way to anticipate which form of defense you need, and you can't afford defending against everything)
- most likely lose if he went for a macro game and you guessed wrong, as in: either you have to get lucky with an all-in, which he can hold reliably if he plays it decently; or you go for a catch-up macro game, which he will reliably win, if he plays it decently.
If you don't see a zerg expanding well after ~20 food, you *know* he's not going for a greedy macro build. If you see a very early pool, you *know* he's not going for a greedy macro build; if you see a pool first and early gas, you *know* he's not going for a greedy macro build.
Zerg can't build a hatchery in-base and float it, so you can always scout hatch first or even 13p15h.
Protoss FE can also always be scouted easily, but the question then is whether you can actually punish him for it.
You can punish him with a 7pool, but that's not what anyone is asking for -- it's a blind counter, so you're playing the luck game (which all races can do, and it's always risky, e.g. proxy rax/gateways).
The question is: Can you open in a way that makes you safe against cheese/early aggression (if you defend decently) and that lets you react to a greedy opening in time to at least roughly keep up -- nobody says you must be exactly equal. Blindly going nexus/hatch first is a risk, and it should pay off if it works, just like blind early aggression.
On the other hand, forge FE is a very economic opening, but it can still attempt to punish a hatch first (ramp block, cannon behind mineral lines) opportunistically. Yes, cannoning the nat is a risk, but protoss doesn't commit to doing this until after scouting the zerg (if he sees a safer opening, he can go for the macro build safely).
If you think 14g14p is enough to compete in a macro game with nexus first or forge FE protoss, that would be an answer to Idra's question. But from what I've heard, most pros do not believe that this is the case -- 14g14p is safe, but you're *really* behind against nexus first if you can't do immediate early damage.
Against Terran, the problem is often not so much whether he is being greedy or not, but simply that you don't know what he's up to: Is it a fast 2rax all-in, or just a 2rax prod into 4rax all-in, or 2rax into expand, or BF hellions into {banshee, mech}, etc.
I don't really care whether Idra is right or not, but you are not doing the discussion a service by misrepresenting the arguments.
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On May 06 2011 22:52 redux46 wrote:
Getting an observer is far faster than a zerg getting OL speed or an overseer. The fact that anti-air units come later for zerg also means banshee all-ins are far more effective against zerg than protoss.
Lair after speed & queen is a similar timing to Protoss rushing straight to obs. That may or may not be viable, but it's certainly not far slower than obs rushing.
When zergs were complaining about these issues most simply deemed it as whining, yet here we are and the fact is they were right.
Uh, no. People have been calling Terran on steppes and close positions bullshit since forever. They're just as bullshit there for Protoss FYI.
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Personally I find it interesting that on ladder only Z are complaining about imba stuff (I play random) but clearly on the level I am playing on (mid master) the mistakes that are made ingame are so obvious.
In SC:BW i also found it a bit unfair that Z could spend all his overmins on ultras and just win from a deficit, but that was not the races or players fault. It was just me being too bad to spend all my cash on M&M.
SC 2 doesn't have to be balanced on all level of play and like somebody mentioned before, maybe the Zerg players are just not good enough and the overall skilllevel (of all players) has to rise a bit more for Z to shine.
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On May 06 2011 23:09 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 22:52 redux46 wrote:
Getting an observer is far faster than a zerg getting OL speed or an overseer. The fact that anti-air units come later for zerg also means banshee all-ins are far more effective against zerg than protoss. Lair after speed & queen is a similar timing to Protoss rushing straight to obs. That may or may not be viable, but it's certainly not far slower than obs rushing. Show nested quote +
When zergs were complaining about these issues most simply deemed it as whining, yet here we are and the fact is they were right.
Uh, no. People have been calling Terran on steppes and close positions bullshit since forever. They're just as bullshit there for Protoss FYI.
Are you factoring in research time for the OL speed? In any case, investing that much minerals and gas to simply scout means you cut back on drones, and you will be way behind.
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On May 06 2011 22:52 redux46 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 22:21 ffadicted wrote:
I dont understand how idra complains about terran all-ins, when protoss have been dealing with them since the dawn of time. Honestly, zerg early game scouting is BETTER then protoss. We both rely on poking up the ramp with probe/lings, but at least zerg can choose to fly an overlord in. And have fun killing that drone early with a sentry unless you want to get a stalker out first and reveal your build... meanwhile zerg easily disposes of the probe with their first 2 lings. And zerg is much better at holding all-ins then protoss. Idra wants to play completely economically and skip most precautions and still be able to hold an all-in. That is a ridiculous demand. He basically wants zerg to be able to be ahead both economically, in army and in tech and hold anything. Ok idra, that's balanced lol
Protoss early game scouting is so bad and the all-ins are so good against them that a STANDARD protoss PvT build is actually RUSHING FOR OBSERVERS. You literaly get a single gate, and get the earliest robo/observer possible out in order to not die. Give me a break idra. And you can't react in time? How about protoss, sitting on 1 or 2 gateways, maybe even without warp gate tech, seeing marines/marauders/banshees/line of SCVs/etc coming towards you? Zerg can get out the units they need much faster because of spawn larva, and already have the building to make spines, when we can't even make cannons because no one gets forge that early unless it's a FE. Spine crawler build time? Try forge + cannon build time. All your units also have lower build time then ours and you can get them out in higher numbers quicker.
And it's not even just terran. Zerg all-ins are SOO good against protoss (I'm looking at you losira vs. alicia, or all the things july has done), they're actually better then PvZ all-ins, or at least just as good. And what matchup is 4 gate so ridiculously good and hard to hold in that blizzard had to patch it? That's right, PvP, not PvZ. And this isn't even just in early game. You zergs think you have trouble dealing with colossi without over making corruptors? Try playing PvP past the 4 gate....
And I hate how he talked about "I'm supposed to beat these players". Right, that's why you were complaining about race imbalance when you were making it to the round of 8 in the GSL Code S, the tournament with the best players in the world lol Fact of the matter is, Idra is a good player, but he's not as good as he thinks he is. He thinks that he's so good that a balanced game = he never loses unless he makes a huge mistake. Grow up please. It's very simple to deny overlord scouting and the earlier the zerg decides to sac his OL the worse he'll be economically. It's not a challenge for a sentry to kill a drone and showing 1 stalker hardly reveals what the protoss build is. It's absurd to say a race that can wall in and FF block the entrance is worse at defending all-ins than zerg, where they can easily have their own ramp FF blocked and effectively lose the game. Getting an observer is far faster than a zerg getting OL speed or an overseer. The fact that anti-air units come later for zerg also means banshee all-ins are far more effective against zerg than protoss.
Forcefield works if you want to stay on 1base for 10mins, at that point you are in no better situation than the Zerg, the Terran just sees you haven't expanded and expands himself knowing he isn't behind.
The few Terran all-ins that people try against a 1basing toss are the 2rax all-in that hits when you barely even have a sentry completed or marine / Siege Tank semi-allin/contain, which if you are caught up the ramp when they get to your base, you are screwed.
On big maps, Terran usually reveal their banshee tech before the Observer even gets to their base.
Killing a overlord is no different than lings killing a scouting probe. Protoss play completely in the blind till the 7-7:30~ mark if they 3gate expand, which is too late to scout roach-ling all-ins. A probe is no better than getting over a Terran wall than a Zergling.
Grass is no greener for Protoss with Banshee all-ins, almost all of them come with a Raven which negates our anti air. Not only that, but there are probably 5-6 different kinds of Banshee All-ins against Protoss. Protoss anti-air is so bad that Mass Banshee play actually works.
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On May 06 2011 23:18 redux46 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 23:09 Yaotzin wrote:On May 06 2011 22:52 redux46 wrote:
Getting an observer is far faster than a zerg getting OL speed or an overseer. The fact that anti-air units come later for zerg also means banshee all-ins are far more effective against zerg than protoss. Lair after speed & queen is a similar timing to Protoss rushing straight to obs. That may or may not be viable, but it's certainly not far slower than obs rushing.
When zergs were complaining about these issues most simply deemed it as whining, yet here we are and the fact is they were right.
Uh, no. People have been calling Terran on steppes and close positions bullshit since forever. They're just as bullshit there for Protoss FYI. Are you factoring in research time for the OL speed?
Yeah, but subtracting travel time. Assuming the ovie is at their base already vs obs having to fly all the way over. (losing to cloakshees cos your obs is midmap is so fucking annoying)
In any case, investing that much minerals and gas to simply scout means you cut back on drones, and you will be way behind.
Way behind for getting a 150/100 research (that you want at some point anyways) + overseer? Really? That is not a huge cost. What do you think a reasonable cost for gaining that information should be? I assume you agree it should come at a cost - rushing obs/getting hallu is hardly free either!
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The ability to scout an opponent's base costs 275/200 + 1 larva, for Zerg, which nets you an Extractor, a Lair, and an Overseer (in place of an Overlord). It takes 30 seconds to build the Extractor, 60 seconds to mine the gas, 80 seconds to build the Lair, 17 seconds to morph the Overseer, and 8 seconds to fly the Overseer into the opposing base. That's a total of 195 seconds, or 3 minutes and 15 seconds, from starting gas to scouting the opponent's main. (Zergling Speed takes essentially the same amount of time to get from scratch, although it only costs 175/100 + 1 larva.) Protoss pays a similar fee for aerial scouting, via Hallucination or Obs or Phoenix. Terran gets earlier scouting (floating building, or comscan) but has to spend deeper for a real air unit.
This raises a question - how much is it worth to Zergs to scout the opposing main, when playing against a one-baser? Most Zerg seem to prioritize 2 Hatcheries + 2 Queens injecting + Zergling Speed; Spanishiwa's opening prefers Queen/Drone/Spine, which is safer and higher econ but suffers reduced map presence and threat. Both have roaring production, but late Lair.
A two-hatch no-queen Zerg opening, or a one-base one-queen Zerg opening, can get very fast Overseer (in the opponent's main by 5:15, before Warp Tech, with Contaminate up at ~5:50). But your production (and therefore economy) will be smaller. If you're comfortable scouting later, around 6:00, there's a lot more wiggle room. A two-hatchery build with only one Queen injecting might offer a decent mix of production versus scouting.
If you don't pony up the $$$ to scout the opponent's main, you'll have to use those saved resources to either prepare for every eventuality, OR to apply enough pressure to restrict the space of possibility. Bear in mind that the opponent has less information than you until his tech completes...
On May 06 2011 22:54 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 22:52 redux46 wrote:
It's very simple to deny overlord scouting and the earlier the zerg decides to sac his OL the worse he'll be economically. It's not a challenge for a sentry to kill a drone and showing 1 stalker hardly reveals what the protoss build is.
Almost all scouting is rooted in economic sacrifice.
Quite so. I used to structure my Broodwar PvX openings around delaying the probe scout as much as possible for those precious early minerals. Worker-scouting costs approximately one mineral per real-life second. The more you save money on gathering intelligence, the less you actually need the intelligence.
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Zergs really should get in the metagame of PvT (yes, that's right).
A matchup what was considered imbalanced in Terran favour because of the poor scouting of Protoss. A matchup that is called imbalanced by Terrans because they can't see everytime if Protoss is going for an all-in-attack, which crushes every greedy build, while they get far behind if they don't try to outmacro Protoss. A matchup what is called imbalanced by some people because Protoss army is so strong. A matchup what is called imbalanced because Terran drops and Banshees and Hellion Harrass require the Protoss to stand with half of his army in the base to defend it properly (if he is not lucky and scouts the harrass before, so he can place his stalkers pre-emptively). A matchup what is called imbalanced because Terran can do all kinds of ridicolous all-ins, for which Protoss needs to hold like 3 techpaths on 1 Base.
And still there are greedy FEs.
A matchup that was considered a huge coinflip - it is not anymore. A matchup that is considered fairly balanced.
If you compare the Zerg metagame evolution, they are now at the time where PvT stood - in novembre. Winning only through all-ins? Huge coinflips? Just compare it. It is the same.
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On May 06 2011 22:57 redux46 wrote:
"And I hate how he talked about "I'm supposed to beat these players". Right, that's why you were complaining about race imbalance when you were making it to the round of 8 in the GSL Code S, the tournament with the best players in the world lol Fact of the matter is, Idra is a good player, but he's not as good as he thinks he is. He thinks that he's so good that a balanced game = he never loses unless he makes a huge mistake. Grow up please."
Based on the matchup against Jinro, his complaints were validated. Even blizzard has acknowledged Jungle Basin was an unfair map. Close spawn positions on a map like metalopolis has also been disabled by every serious tournament.
When zergs were complaining about these issues most simply deemed it as whining, yet here we are and the fact is they were right.
His showmatch versus Jinro (if that's what you're discussing) also happened at a time when IdrA himself admitted that he wasn't actually practicing all that hard in general, and especially for that matchup, and hated the place the game was at. If your opponent practices more, then they deserve to win, don't they?
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On May 06 2011 23:09 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 22:52 redux46 wrote:
Getting an observer is far faster than a zerg getting OL speed or an overseer. The fact that anti-air units come later for zerg also means banshee all-ins are far more effective against zerg than protoss. Lair after speed & queen is a similar timing to Protoss rushing straight to obs. That may or may not be viable, but it's certainly not far slower than obs rushing. Show nested quote +
When zergs were complaining about these issues most simply deemed it as whining, yet here we are and the fact is they were right.
Uh, no. People have been calling Terran on steppes and close positions bullshit since forever. They're just as bullshit there for Protoss FYI.
Lair = 80 seconds + OL speed = 60 => 140 seconds
Robo = 65 seconds + Obs = 45 => 110 seconds + distance of map (cause overlords would probably already be in place)
So it seems pretty comparable I suppose. Though if you're rushing the robo I don't think you can reasonably get the lair that quickly. I'm not sure though.
I was also under the impression that Protoss can stall the Terran player with forcefields and the like. I dunno, it always seems like Protoss units are overall better while Zerg units are kind of shitty unless its the proper counter. I don't know, I'm not a Protoss player so I don't know PvT.
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