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firstoff im a ~600+ diamond random player(only played ~100 ladder games so far) and played/followed bw for years. while im not great i think i understand the game pretty well.
I dont say maps solve evrything. i dont say the game is perfectly balanced in anyway.
With all the huge balance threads and the masses of raging guys that will tell you how pretty much evrything is super OP/UP/unfair i think the biggest issue totally gets ignored. i keep saying it almost evry balance thread i post in and i opened a thread about it somewhere in phase 1.
the biggest and most influential issue sc2 has right now are the maps.
maps change evrything in starcraft. its widely accepted that the only remaining imbalance in bw was map imbalance.
for the new guys,it becomes very obvious when we look at maps like blood bath + Show Spoiler + , gorky park + Show Spoiler + or python + Show Spoiler +how both gameplay and balance change entirely depending on the map.
even slight adjustment can be the difference between a crappy map and a decent one ( blizzards lost temple and the later iterations)
now if we look at the fairly balanced to balanced maps that were/are used in the pro leagues/on icc and at the maps blizzard gave us for sc2 there is a huge difference.
blizzard focused on small maps, on gimmicks and abusable terrain. while the pro maps focus on big maps with none or small gimmicks(and only cause only standart would be boring) and terrain that is important from a strategic point of view and not the "oh cliffs evrywhere. guess ill abuse that with tanks/colloxen!" way.
there is a reason why metalopolis is considered the best map, it is kinda big, has many "normal" expos (not blocked,nonisland) and has no weird gimmicks or terrain. it is the most similar to what we had in bw. its the most balanced map and produces the "biggest" games.
this also is the reason why we see so many games that end up in cheesy/allin play. games that end after one fight. games where mass+ 1a wins the game. pretty much the majority of the complains we have/had with sc2 in the early beta are largely related to the maps blizzard provided us with.
but thats not the point of this thread.
cause more important right now is that most balance talk is going in the wrong direction
i dont think anyone can disagree that maps are one of the biggest reasons for Zs early game problems. with maps like kulas,blistering or the caverns its no wonder that Z is having problems. other way round Terran is the race which has the smallest problems adapting cause of the nature of the race. the safe early game, the defensive power and units that are happy about cliffs and narrow spaces.
but instead of complaining about the maps like we did in broodwar (lol@the old wcg maps) people come up with absolutely ridiculous claims how evrything is OP/UP and needs to be changed.fact is the game is in a very great shape balance wise. sure far from perfect but also far from how bad all the QQ makes it out to be. the maps tho are terrible all around and almost evryone agrees on that.
also the other problem:
if blizzard balances the game for the maps we have now we will never have balance on "good" maps that produce good/bw like matches.if we want the game to be more like broodwar the maps should be the target
when balance is achieved for those small gimmicky maps we wont be able to just transfer on "real" maps cause we will again have balance issues . and i doubt we want to play "which allin is the strongest" for years instead of epic macro and strategy battles we know and love from bw.
kinda forgot what i wanted to add. its 5am here and beer doesnt help typing . might edit it in but my basic points are made.
tl,dr:
1. maps are the root of most "balance problems" right now
2. if people keep complaining about "stupid stuff" they work against the good of the game
3. if the game gets balanced for the current set of maps we turn away more and more from bw the best and most entertaining rts ever made
/edited so balance crusaders dont feel offended.
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I can't bring any other news to the thread, other than i really think you are very wrong.
Yes map balance is an important thing, but ... No.. Just no!
User was warned for this post
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I think it's a widely accepted fact that the current ladder maps are not tournament quality, and it's hard to gauge where the balance is at with the current map pool. That's not to say that Zerg doesn't need to be looked at as well, however, but let's look more at solving the problem of maps first...
So the community makes better, more balanced, more fun maps and everyone plays them, just like SC. Easy. Problem solved, right? Nope. There's another problem: Blizzard have made it incredibly difficult for new, community melee maps to hit the mainstream and become standard.
Blizzard need to take community maps, preferably frequently -- like weekly, and implement them into the ladder map pool. They should also consider redesigning the map preference option so that we never, ever have to play on shitty maps, and can more frequently and reliably play on the maps we like to play on and need to practice on.
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Sure maps are a big part of ZvT balance issues ... Did you really have to make a new thread in order to state the obvious? I mean there are already dozens of threads talking about balance.
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On August 18 2010 11:59 Qzy wrote:
I can't bring any other news to the thread, other than i really think you are very wrong.
Yes map balance is an important thing, but ... No.. Just no!
SC2 forum at its best.
Honestly any pretty much any imbalance can be fixed by different maps, and it's the one that the community has any control over.
I mean, think about BW. Let's say that you have a 'balanced' and a 'Terran-favored' map. But that's assuming that the core game is 'balanced'. It could be that the game is inherently skewed towards Terran. The 'Terran-favored' map is in fact a balanced map, and the 'balanced' map is in fact a Zerg-favored map. No one would be able to tell the difference. And, to be honest, it does not matter. Any core imbalance (if such a thing exists) can be hidden by maps; that's what happened in Brood War.
Read the Brood War forums, and you'll see that no one really blames the game for any perceived imbalances any more. It's all about the maps. We don't know that that's the truth. Maybe it's actually the game that's imbalanced. But no one cares because it doesn't matter, since any problems can be fixed by a new map pool.
Sure maps are a big part of ZvT balance issues ... Did you really have to make a new thread for stating the obvious? I mean there are already dozens of threads talking about balance.
I would assume that the point is that changes to the game (as so many are clamoring for) are not necessarily needed, as long as suitable maps are made.
TLDR: All the races are fine, I'm going to dismiss all evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to the contrary. The top players are wrong, the random diamonds are wrong, most people on this forum are wrong, the races are FINE.
TLDR: I didn't read the post but I think that I should type some stuff anyway
User was warned for this post
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map is an issue and important. but ur still wrong. the balance issues go deeper then the maps. all of the maps arnt even that bad seeing as how ZvP, ZvZ, PvP are perfectly fine on all of the current maps. yet when ever TvP or TvZ enters the fray everything gets stupid. yet TvT is fine aswell. and u rly think its a map issue? it goes much deeper then just the maps.
so to put it bluntly and shortly, the maps are only ONE part of the issue out of many. the maps are not the ultimate and main factor in it.
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TLDR: All the races are fine, I'm going to dismiss all evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to the contrary. The top players are wrong, the random diamonds are wrong, most people on this forum are wrong, the races are FINE.
edit: normally i wouldn't disagree so vehemently but you really need to acknowledge the general feeling that Z is UP. Completely dismissing others isn't the way to make people agree with you
User was warned for this post
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On August 18 2010 12:06 GenericTerranPlayer wrote:
TLDR: All the races are fine, I'm going to dismiss all evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to the contrary. The top players are wrong, the random diamonds are wrong, most people on this forum are wrong, the races are FINE.
i never said that in any way. dont put words in my mouth. i just think that the biggest issue by far are the maps that hugely affect balance and gamestyles in a negative way.
if you think the maps are good fine. if you think the game is so broken fine. but dont try to turn my post into something it isnt.
and btw, im one of those diamond randoms you speak of. also i said that the game is still far away from balance.
Sure maps are a big part of ZvT balance issues ... Did you really have to make a new thread in order to state the obvious? I mean there are already dozens of threads talking about balance.
im not talking about balance in the way all those others threads are doing it. and i dont want to.
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On August 18 2010 12:06 GenericTerranPlayer wrote:
edit: normally i wouldn't disagree so vehemently but you really need to acknowledge the general feeling that Z is UP. Completely dismissing others isn't the way to make people agree with you
He literally didn't say anything about whether or not Zerg was underpowered.
map is an issue and important. but ur still wrong. the balance issues go deeper then the maps. all of the maps arnt even that bad seeing as how ZvP, ZvZ, PvP are perfectly fine on all of the current maps. yet when ever TvP or TvZ enters the fray everything gets stupid. yet TvT is fine aswell. and u rly think its a map issue? it goes much deeper then just the maps.
Why do you think so? You're putting unit strengths and race mechanics on a higher pedestal than map design without any real reason for it. They are all parts of the overall balance, and changing any part will change the balance. If it's only stupid with TvP and TvZ, then the map is Terran-favored. It doesn't matter whether it's 'actually the map' or 'actually the game', change the maps and things will balance out. The reason maps are what we should focus on are that 1) if you screw it up all you need is a new map and 2) we don't need Blizzard (as much).
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On August 18 2010 12:05 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 11:59 Qzy wrote:
I can't bring any other news to the thread, other than i really think you are very wrong.
Yes map balance is an important thing, but ... No.. Just no! SC2 forum at its best. Honestly any pretty much any imbalance can be fixed by different maps, and it's the one that the community has any control over. I mean, think about BW. Let's say that you have a 'balanced' and a 'Terran-favored' map. But that's assuming that the core game is 'balanced'. It could be that the game is inherently skewed towards Terran. The 'Terran-favored' map is in fact a balanced map, and the 'balanced' map is in fact a Zerg-favored map. No one would be able to tell the difference. And, to be honest, it does not matter. Any core imbalance (if such a thing exists) can be hidden by maps; that's what happened in Brood War. Read the Brood War forums, and you'll see that no one really blames the game for any perceived imbalances any more. It's all about the maps. We don't know that that's the truth. Maybe it's actually the game that's imbalanced. But no one cares because it doesn't matter, since any problems can be fixed by a new map pool. Show nested quote +Sure maps are a big part of ZvT balance issues ... Did you really have to make a new thread for stating the obvious? I mean there are already dozens of threads talking about balance. I would assume that the point is that changes to the game (as so many are clamoring for) are not necessarily needed, as long as suitable maps are made. Show nested quote +TLDR: All the races are fine, I'm going to dismiss all evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to the contrary. The top players are wrong, the random diamonds are wrong, most people on this forum are wrong, the races are FINE. TLDR: I didn't read the post but I think that I should type some stuff anyway
seriously? so ur going to make a bunch of zerg favored maps just to help TvZ and thus screw up the ZvP match up? no, ur doing it wrong. like i said the issues go much deeper then just the maps themselves.
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I think his argument is more that the races don't need to be changed, more that the maps need to be... As I see some people in this thread saying the opposite. I agree with the assessment that the maps DO indeed need to be changed... There are a lot of "gimmicks" regarding most of the maps on the ladder (excluding the gold mineral gimmick). I really REALLY hate the backdoor rocks on blistering sands... I know Neo Medusa wasn't the most balanced map ever, but at least they had like 12 temples blocking the backdoor @_@
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You guys need to stop using your point rating as credibility. Almost everybody who says their rating as a point of credibility is basically saying they are not very good, but that aside alot of the maps do give terran a huge advantage. like the choke points and cliffs on maps like lost temple... and reapers on kulas..... Not to mention these rush distances. If zerg mis calculates when the other guy is going to push out and they do a wave of drones and they move out, it's over no matter who the zerg is. Not to mention half the maps have towers in perfect spot for tanks to just chill and they dont even need to 1 a to win they just need to stare at the screen
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On August 18 2010 12:13 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 12:05 Redmark wrote:On August 18 2010 11:59 Qzy wrote:
I can't bring any other news to the thread, other than i really think you are very wrong.
Yes map balance is an important thing, but ... No.. Just no! SC2 forum at its best. Honestly any pretty much any imbalance can be fixed by different maps, and it's the one that the community has any control over. I mean, think about BW. Let's say that you have a 'balanced' and a 'Terran-favored' map. But that's assuming that the core game is 'balanced'. It could be that the game is inherently skewed towards Terran. The 'Terran-favored' map is in fact a balanced map, and the 'balanced' map is in fact a Zerg-favored map. No one would be able to tell the difference. And, to be honest, it does not matter. Any core imbalance (if such a thing exists) can be hidden by maps; that's what happened in Brood War. Read the Brood War forums, and you'll see that no one really blames the game for any perceived imbalances any more. It's all about the maps. We don't know that that's the truth. Maybe it's actually the game that's imbalanced. But no one cares because it doesn't matter, since any problems can be fixed by a new map pool. Sure maps are a big part of ZvT balance issues ... Did you really have to make a new thread for stating the obvious? I mean there are already dozens of threads talking about balance. I would assume that the point is that changes to the game (as so many are clamoring for) are not necessarily needed, as long as suitable maps are made. TLDR: All the races are fine, I'm going to dismiss all evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to the contrary. The top players are wrong, the random diamonds are wrong, most people on this forum are wrong, the races are FINE. TLDR: I didn't read the post but I think that I should type some stuff anyway seriously? so ur going to make a bunch of zerg favored maps just to help TvZ and thus screw up the ZvP match up? no, ur doing it wrong. like i said the issues go much deeper then just the maps themselves.
its not about making maps that give Z an advantage but about making maps that give no one a disadvantage. and at the same time promote more bw-esque gameplay.
changed "all" to "most" so the balance crusaders dont feel offended.
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On August 18 2010 11:59 Qzy wrote:
I can't bring any other news to the thread, other than i really think you are very wrong.
Yes map balance is an important thing, but ... No.. Just no!
User was warned for this post
And why was i warned for that post? He comes with his opinion, and i come with mine?
How can that offend anyone? There was no name calling? I was saying he was wrong...
So if i make a thread about something 90% disagrees, every nay-sayers in my thread will be warned? wtf?
No i didn't bring an argument or replay to support my claim... If he asked for it, I would bring it?
You are chasing people away from TL.net with that kind of warnings.
User was warned for this post
Edit: This post was also warned, cos I question my warning - I'll stop posting. Gl hf. My edit accidently removed the red warning text.
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On August 18 2010 12:09 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
im not talking about balance in the way all those others threads are doing it. and i dont want to.
Well I think these are all part of the bigger picture so in my humble opinion matchup balance and map balance are inseparable. I think that even a better map pool would not resolve all the issues.
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On August 18 2010 12:21 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 12:09 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
im not talking about balance in the way all those others threads are doing it. and i dont want to. Well I think these are all part of the bigger picture so in my humble opinion matchup balance and map balance are inseparable. I think that even a better map pool would not resolve all the issues.
fully agree. i never said maps solve evrything. i also said the game is far from balanced outside of the maps.
still the biggest and most obvious issue are the maps which doesnt get enough attention.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2010 12:13 Ballistixz wrote:
seriously? so ur going to make a bunch of zerg favored maps just to help TvZ and thus screw up the ZvP match up? no, ur doing it wrong. like i said the issues go much deeper then just the maps themselves.
You can't disentangle map balance and racial balance from each other like that. They are one and the same.
If they weren't then you could say that SC1 is imbalanced against P--because the current balance in PvZ is centered around the ability of Protoss to forge-expand, and the "default" maps for SC1 don't all allow that.
On August 18 2010 12:21 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 11:59 Qzy wrote:
I can't bring any other news to the thread, other than i really think you are very wrong.
Yes map balance is an important thing, but ... No.. Just no!
User was warned for this post
And why was i warned for that post? He comes with his opinion, and i come with mine? How can that offend anyone? There was no name calling? I was saying he was wrong... So if i make a thread about something 90% disagrees, every nay-sayers in my thread will be warned? wtf?
You come in just to say "no, you're wrong" without any reasoning as to why. You're not contributing anything to the discussion.
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OK, I'm not really a good player, so I really don't know what makes a "good map" a good map and the same with a bad map.
I hear talk of this all the time of how horrible the maps are but without any specific examples. Take steppes of war, for example. There really isn't that much abusable terrain. The distance is short, but that shouldn't make much of a difference if the game is balanced, right?
And I would also like to see some freelance maps that would be considered "balanced". Because I really don't see how a map could be perfectly balanced without being boring.
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I completely agree and have been saying this since beta phase 2 =[.
literally almost every problem the masses are complaining about can be fixed by maps. have larger traveling distances and more wide-open maps would help zerg drastically in ZvT, giving them more time to react to 1-base T shenanigans and helping them out late game drastically, as well as helping protoss a little in PvT, and helping zerg in ZvP.
I really hope blizz just rotates the entire map pool really soon =[.
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On August 18 2010 12:24 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
[...] are the maps which doesnt get enough attention.
This seems true indeed.
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