The true balance problem - the maps - Page 3

On August 18 2010 13:12 Kigari wrote:
Now blaming maps and the entire physics of the game for imbalance ?

My god are you people for real ?

On August 18 2010 13:18 Gedrah wrote:
I have not read this thread, and I know I'm unlikely to find any sympathy for my complaint as I'm a Terran player, but back-door rocks (to me) are the silliest kludge ever. I get 80% of my losses because I lapse for a second and there's suddenly 30 speedlings in my base. You can't wall that shit off due to the enormous half-circle of magical eternity grass which occludes vision and is Indestructible, immune to fire and explosions and bullets and certainly immune to the cutting tools of an SCV (yet completely passable to all forms of matter, including giant mechs like the Thor).

If it requires something like a giant gaping goatse hole in the back of my base to give P and Z an occasional win, there might be a deeper underlying balance problem. But I definitely feel like maps with back-door rocks are plain silly. It's just about a guarantee that there will be 10-12 Zealots showing up to cut them down, and once they're in, it's pretty much just one big battle and then game over. I either had Hellions and turned them into 100-mineral ash piles, or I didn't, and I gg'ed.

The reason I post all of this in response to the OP is that I don't think putting gimmicks in the maps is the right way to improve balance. Think of the neutral CC on Holy World, who has forgotten Zero v. Bisu with infested terrans? When the map contributes a change to gameplay that large, it's almost like you're not playing "Starcraft: Brood War" at that time. It's more like "Starcraft: Brood War: Holy World Edition" where you can get Infested Terrans in ZvP. Well, to me, Blistering Sands and Scrap Station are not the same game as the other SC2 maps which don't have back door rocks. And there are not many such maps :[

like i mentioned the maps remained the same all through beta, yet the balance of each race fluctuated when balance changes hit. the maps didnt play to much of a part in that. but now that terran has became over powered its automatically the maps fault now? what happened to the maps when zerg was over powered and toss over powered and terran was weakest race? nothing, they just get hit with the nerf bat. and now its terrans turn to be overpowered. but its now the maps fault there over powered? thats BS imo.

On August 18 2010 13:20 Ryuu314 wrote:

Clearly you have never played/followed the BW scene. Maps and the balance issues they create play a HUGE role in whether or not a certain matchup is balanced. For example, large, macro maps with tons of expos are better (usually) for Zerg, while maps with tons of choke points everywhere along with ledges are better (usually) for Terran.

Maps have a very big role in determining how the game plays out.

On August 18 2010 13:26 ghettohobbit2 wrote:


I really need to massively disagree with this assessment. Clearly maps are capable of favoring one race or the other.

For example, if a map has a natural expansion whose entrance is blocked by a rock, is on a cliff, has at tower that overlooks its only entrance, and has... say... four geysers, that map will clearly favor Terran, since they can simply load their SCVs into the CC, turtle in, and make tanks.

Or, if a map has a natural expansion that is ONLY accessible through the main, that map will favor Zerg, because they'll only have to worry about being rushed from one direction, and therefore will have fewer spine crawlers to place.

Obviously these are hyperbolic examples, but they are still quite capable of manifesting themselves in smaller ways.

maps should not play THAT much of a role when determining balance.

On August 18 2010 13:26 Ballistixz wrote:
yes it does. but its not the sole factor. if it was then MANY of the balance changes like roaches being 2 supply and such should still be in the game since it could have been solved by the making of maps. but that is the wrong way about going about the issue. why make maps solely to depower a overpowered race? why make race specifically to solve balance issues in a match up when all the other match ups are fine? especially when with all the previous nerfs that happened yet no one yelled "change the maps then it would be fine"

so why now are ppl starting to blame maps now that terran are imba?

On August 18 2010 12:49 Ballistixz wrote:
thats not what im saying. look at the current maps right now. are u really trying to say that every single one of those maps are in favor of terran and that is the reason terran are winning games? alot of the blizz maps are pretty good with the exception of kulas ravine and dessert oasis. as a result ZvP, PvP, and ZvZ and TvT are all good on the maps and pretty balanced. yet when it comes to TvZ and TvP everything gets diffrent. u cant blame all blizz maps for that.

On August 18 2010 12:49 Ballistixz wrote:
the beta lasted for months. many balance changes were made. first protoss was imba, then zerg was imba, then protoss was imba again, and towards the end of beta terran became imba and remained imba for release. so no u cant blame just solely the maps. like i said before the maps are not the only issue right now. infact i dont think its the issue at all. if anything maps should be the last factor in it seeing as balance fluctuated between the 3 races for months on the very same maps. the maps were not the cause of the balance issue since the maps remained the same all thru beta.

On August 18 2010 13:09 Ballistixz wrote:
i dont think u guys get my point. if ur going to make maps specifically to try and weaken terran so they can be on par with zerg and toss then dont u think something is wrong with that? cuz i personally do. i think maps should be the last factor in determining balance of a race not the first and main reason.

like i mentioned the maps remained the same all through beta, yet the balance of each race fluctuated when balance changes hit. the maps didnt play to much of a part in that. but now that terran has became over powered its automatically the maps fault now? what happened to the maps when zerg was over powered and toss over powered and terran was weakest race? nothing, they just get hit with the nerf bat. and now its terrans turn to be overpowered. but its now the maps fault there over powered? thats BS imo.

if what ppl in this thread are saying is true then the should still be how it was since week 1 of beta and just change the maps to make it balanced. thats what it seems like ppl are saying in this thread. maps should not play THAT much of a role when determining balance.

On August 18 2010 12:54 andeh wrote:
Maps need to be fixed. They need to be bigger, and the number of minerals should be played around with so you cant as easily go 200/200 on two base.

On August 18 2010 13:28 TheYango wrote:

Because map publishing wasn't available until the patch after the roach nerf?

On August 18 2010 13:41 Ballistixz wrote:



so you are saying that you didnt blame the maps because they were no publishing yet now you are going to say that making certain maps will balance out everything without even testing any of them?

first of all map publishing was out for a pretty long time. there were even MANY discussions about maps since ppl were messing around with the editor before map publishing was available. yet nothing was brought up about balancing the current issues at the time with maps. only now is there any real discussion towards it. and its a blind discussion because people are ignoring the whole facts about why the match ups are how they are right now.

basically what your saying is "make new maps and that will solve everything!"

thats bull shit and u know it. like i said maps arnt going to solve all the issues that are in the match ups right now.

On August 18 2010 13:26 Ballistixz wrote:



yes it does. but its not the sole factor. if it was then MANY of the balance changes like roaches being 2 supply and such should still be in the game since it could have been solved by the making of maps. but that is the wrong way about going about the issue. why make maps solely to depower a overpowered race? why make race specifically to solve balance issues in a match up when all the other match ups are fine? especially when with all the previous nerfs that happened yet no one yelled "change the maps then it would be fine"

so why now are ppl starting to blame maps now that terran are imba?

On August 18 2010 13:44 TheYango wrote:

Read my edit.

Maps are not the only way to make changes. But there's no real point in differentiating map changes and racial changes. They're balance changes any way you slice it, and seeing as maps are the only way for us as the community to actually affect the balance, we may as well use it.