EPTThe true balance problem - the maps - Page 9
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Augury
United States758 Posts
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
On August 18 2010 12:05 Redmark wrote: SC2 forum at its best. Honestly any pretty much any imbalance can be fixed by different maps, and it's the one that the community has any control over. I mean, think about BW. Let's say that you have a 'balanced' and a 'Terran-favored' map. But that's assuming that the core game is 'balanced'. It could be that the game is inherently skewed towards Terran. The 'Terran-favored' map is in fact a balanced map, and the 'balanced' map is in fact a Zerg-favored map. No one would be able to tell the difference. And, to be honest, it does not matter. Any core imbalance (if such a thing exists) can be hidden by maps; that's what happened in Brood War. Read the Brood War forums, and you'll see that no one really blames the game for any perceived imbalances any more. It's all about the maps. We don't know that that's the truth. Maybe it's actually the game that's imbalanced. But no one cares because it doesn't matter, since any problems can be fixed by a new map pool. User was warned for this post This is a good post that deserves more attention. Wonder about the warning. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On August 27 2010 05:41 cascades wrote: This is a good post that deserves more attention. Wonder about the warning. Some admins are really throwing some weird warnings around today. | ||
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Kishkumen
United States650 Posts
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
too lazy to find the other threads this is nothing new is it? Yeah blizz maps are terrible we need new maps but getting players to play the new maps is not easy as they tend to bitch and moan when you put a map in play that isnt on the ladder pool. So yes we need to improve the maps but the real problem is the players not playing on the maps edit: Don't mean to discount the OP seeing as I agree with it jsut the problem is the maps when it comes to balance but the problem with that problem is that players dont want to fix that problem until Blizzard incorporates the new maps into the Ladder pool so they can practice on them easier. | ||
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
As many people have said it's the number of viable options that T has that's imbalanced. Any one specific build can be countered but there's so many builds that all require different responses. Morrow vs Idra game 4 is a perfect example of this. I guess you could try Xel'naga towers right outside every base, that might work for a while. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32157 Posts
On August 27 2010 05:07 GhostFall wrote: There is something inherently wrong about balancing the game using maps. It is fundamentally better to balance the races first. I mean take a completely symmetrical map. Add in a main and a natural for each side. That map, should be considered 100% balanced. Do not consider the races, do not even consider the game of starcraft, just looking at a perfectly symmetrical world, you should take one look at it and say, that is balanced. How could you say it is not? Then add the races, add the differences between them all, and they should be balanced in this symmetrical map. If there are any inbalances in the matchups, it is not due to the map, IT IS DUE to the race. But all the races operate differently in each match up Z: Needs open maps for flanking in all MU P: Needs flanking vs T and is better on tight maps vs Z T: More chokes the merrier On that same note though, I don't want all boring ass macro maps like what was all over BW in the later years. FUCK LUNA and all those boring clones. There's got to be some with short distances and different stuff too. On August 27 2010 05:51 Klive5ive wrote: I thought it was the maps at first and they certainly would help BUT they won't fix the inherent scouting problems that the game has. As many people have said it's the number of viable options that T has that's imbalanced. Any one specific build can be countered but there's so many builds that all require different responses. Morrow vs Idra game 4 is a perfect example of this. I guess you could try Xel'naga towers right outside every base, that might work for a while. Ive never found an issue with scouting, but I admit I play little competitive zerg in SC2. Scouting is essentially the same from BW. You always had to sac ovies in BW ZvT. I think the difference is that it's not as easy to recognize what is coming anymore because people aren't used to recognizing a build just based on the units you see. Why is that any different here?? | ||
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Adron
Netherlands839 Posts
Seriously scrap station has a ridiculous flight rush distance, smoke right down your ramp, 1 island, rocks to backdoor the nat, a huge space to hide tech/get highground advantage near the nat, a short rush distance blocked by 2 rocks, and 2 semi-islands blocked with rocks... That is a mind boggling amount of features in map, and only tests a persons quirkiness and ability to fend off quirkiness than anything else. | ||
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kariido
Saudi Arabia179 Posts
Ever since the beginning I've disliked the maps in SC2 since they were so off-base in relation to the maps that I've grown accustomed to in BW. I've attributed this to nostalgia and that the new maps would better serve SC2's playstyle. This is SC2 after all, not BW. Well, as time passed the maps on the ladder just didn't make the game flow as it should and I grew weary of them. I found myself searching online for custom melee remakes of the ICCUP maps for SC2. After downloading a few (and publishing them) low and behold everything just clicked, I love everything there is to the game now. The awkward small narrow pathways in the middle of the map were non-existant and the choke points at the naturals really added another layer of depth and planning to the game that was, to my analysis, was purposefully avoided in SC2 since Blizzard wanted to thwart any accusation that SC2's playstyle was slow and cumbersome in comparison to BW. This however promoted one base all-ins due to the inherent dangerous nature of expanding into an open and vulnerable position. I've played around 90 ladder games and I've more than tripled that number since then in custom (melee) games using remakes of the ICCUP BW maps. If you're somehow dissatisfied with the way games are played on the ladder try playing some remakes and you'll notice an immediate difference in planning, tactics and even the power level of units. Until Blizzard incorporates such maps in the ladder or an ICCUPesque ladder shows up with ICCUPesque maps; I'll stick to the remakes  . | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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SARgeant47
United States24 Posts
Yes I also believe that scouting is very hard to do cuz terrans ability to make several different units out of just one building with a tech lab is a bit...dare I say...'OP'. But instead of takn away the terrans ability to surprise his opponents (cuz I actually kinda like to guess what t might get out his rax with tech lab so I dont consider it op but Im probably 1 out of 15% that agree) but to fix the scouting for both protoss and zergs to help scout in early and mid game is to make obs speed upgradable in the cyber core ( well nvm cuz if protoss feels he needs to scout research hullicination instead of rushing for warp gates) But for zerg its to difficult and to sac an ovie and is just a waste of time most of the time cuz the overlord is just too slow. Rushing to lair tech to get overlord speed or overseers takes alot of time and terran might b rushing with a huge marauder ball. Instead mayb overlord speed should b able to b researched in tier 1. Then the zerg has to decide whether to get overlord speed and delay a queen/lair, get ling speed, or roaches. Mayb even make ovie speed require evo chamber but still b tier 1. These r just my thoughts on the maps and scouting issues. Thx for reading. | ||
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kariido
Saudi Arabia179 Posts
On August 27 2010 05:48 Kishkumen wrote: Day[9] agrees, as confirmed in his daily last night. Link please? | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On August 27 2010 05:50 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140754 too lazy to find the other threads this is nothing new is it? Yeah blizz maps are terrible we need new maps but getting players to play the new maps is not easy as they tend to bitch and moan when you put a map in play that isnt on the ladder pool. So yes we need to improve the maps but the real problem is the players not playing on the maps edit: Don't mean to discount the OP seeing as I agree with it jsut the problem is the maps when it comes to balance but the problem with that problem is that players dont want to fix that problem until Blizzard incorporates the new maps into the Ladder pool so they can practice on them easier. Have you guys actually formally contacted Blizzard about inclusion of a competitive map pool or at least having them take a look at your maps? I've been playing through them, some are meh but most are awesome. I think of course they're pretty basic right now and there's a lot more you can do given the power of the editor, but compared to ladder maps they're amazing. | ||
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Kishkumen
United States650 Posts
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4049854/ @44:30 I asked the question to the Thought Hammer himself, after hearing it discussed in several threads on TL and on the JP's State of the Game podcasts. While he didn't respond to any particular threads on TL, he confirmed that he thinks the maps need to be bigger and more like BW. | ||
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Grummy
Sweden70 Posts
And i know mirror =/= balance. But its part of the balance. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
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Coil
Argentina119 Posts
 On August 27 2010 05:50 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140754 too lazy to find the other threads this is nothing new is it? Yeah blizz maps are terrible we need new maps but getting players to play the new maps is not easy as they tend to bitch and moan when you put a map in play that isnt on the ladder pool. So yes we need to improve the maps but the real problem is the players not playing on the maps edit: Don't mean to discount the OP seeing as I agree with it jsut the problem is the maps when it comes to balance but the problem with that problem is that players dont want to fix that problem until Blizzard incorporates the new maps into the Ladder pool so they can practice on them easier. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On August 27 2010 06:10 Hawk wrote: Ive never found an issue with scouting, but I admit I play little competitive zerg in SC2. Scouting is essentially the same from BW. You always had to sac ovies in BW ZvT. I think the difference is that it's not as easy to recognize what is coming anymore because people aren't used to recognizing a build just based on the units you see. Why is that any different here?? Surely you see the difference. It's not that people aren't "used" to recognising builds, it's that you literally can't recognise them. What does it mean if you see a Terran with early gas and no barracks? It could be a proxy reaper, or he could be getting gas for an early factory. What does it mean if you see a wall with a factory with addon and 1rax? It could be marines+tank into expand or it could be marines+igniter hellions into all-in attack. What does it mean if you see just a barracks and marines? There could be hellions hidden, there could be marines/marauders hidden, there could be banshees hidden, there could be Thors coming, he could just be expanding. Plus the hard-counter system of the game means if you get it wrong the consequences are far worse. If you get mass lings against hellions or mass reapers you will lose. If you get roaches against marauders or marines you will lose. Reapers and marauders are exactly the same tech yet require two different counter. Plus of course there is no chance for Zerg to be aggressive. Most of Terran aggression can be backed out of. You just sit behind your wall. Hydras are far too slow to counter you and mutas are nothing like as strong as they were. In BroodWar it was either mech or bio and the responses were reasonably strong against the wrong thing anyway. Hydras work against any high tech play, wraiths, vulture runbys, or standard mech. Sunkens into mutas work reasonably well against both too. The only thing that could catch you out is a sunken bust. | ||
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Fadetowhite
Korea (South)302 Posts
wtb for sc2 laddering | ||
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