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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
On August 27 2010 05:41 cascades wrote: This is a good post that deserves more attention. Wonder about the warning. I agree with this, so I'll copy it yet again. Also, going to see if I can make red text (= Ooh, and the top of a page, no less. | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
On August 27 2010 07:37 Klive5ive wrote: Surely you see the difference. It's not that people aren't "used" to recognising builds, it's that you literally can't recognise them. Hm but when you can't recognise the builds i don't think it's a problem with scouting rather with game design? | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
If we don't want all the maps to look the same and we still want balance we need to balance it from both ends. If we don't have a wide variety of different possible maps then the game will get boring. If none of the maps are balanced it will also get boring. I think a good idea is to first try to balance it through balance changes and then try to balance through maps and only add very slight balance changes after that point. I'm not sure we have reached that point yet. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On August 27 2010 07:42 wiesel wrote: Hm but when you can't recognise the builds i don't think it's a problem with scouting rather with game design? Yes we mean the same thing. Scouting in the wider sense. For instance if you had to build a merc haven to make reapers again I would say that would make scouting easier but it's game design too. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
 .Blizzards ironfisted control on the mappool can only hurt the game in the long run. The current issues in the ZvT MU are incredibly minute in the grand scheme of "online game imbalances", and this should be evident towards anyone with even the slightest bit of experience playing any online game besides SC2 and its predecessor. Of course, this thread is going to be get swamped by a bunch of new players with poor understanding of game balance or the game itself crying for DRASTIC CHANGES TO CORE GAMEPLAY MECHANICS. Like flying building. As many people have said it's the number of viable options that T has that's imbalanced. Any one specific build can be countered but there's so many builds that all require different responses. Morrow vs Idra game 4 is a perfect example of this. Which is why Terran have been overpowered versus zerg throughout the Beta, despite many changes to address the problem. Oh Wait. No they fucking haven't :o. Now I'm not saying that the game is 100% fine and only map tweaks are all it needs. But even in game tweaks, all zerg needs would be a few minor buffs and T a few minor tweaks and that could potentially fix it. Big fixes are generally unwarranted unless there is a big "big problem". | ||
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Alexstrasas
302 Posts
Wouldn't be really cool if someone did a tournament were they would just thrown in random unkown maps and the players would just have to adapt on the spot ? First it would open up the map pool ALOT. Second it would be a nice test to see if the players have that something extra to cook something on the spot. | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
On August 18 2010 12:21 Qzy wrote: And why was i warned for that post? He comes with his opinion, and i come with mine? How can that offend anyone? There was no name calling? I was saying he was wrong... So if i make a thread about something 90% disagrees, every nay-sayers in my thread will be warned? wtf? No i didn't bring an argument or replay to support my claim... If he asked for it, I would bring it? You are chasing people away from TL.net with that kind of warnings. User was warned for this post Edit: This post was also warned, cos I question my warning - I'll stop posting. Gl hf. My edit accidently removed the red warning text. despite agreeing with the OP, more so than yourself, i wholly agree with you on the warning/ban/opinion thing here. that's why i just lurk mostly now. mods here are way too harsh. and often times there will be huge difference in one mods opinion from another and their actions. it ends up being a pretty inconsistent standard. but of course they never get reprimanded or punished for anything. Appearances and not showing "weakness" to the public or admit anything comes before being fair, or whatnot. ban me for this? like i care | ||
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Augury
United States758 Posts
On August 27 2010 07:49 DrainX wrote: It is important to balance the game both through maps and through balance changes of the races. The goal of balance changes are to make the game balanced on as many different maps as possible. If we only balance the game through maps we might end up in a situation where a lot of features are needed in a map and a lot of other features are impossible to implement in maps while still keeping the game balanced. Another way you can see it is if there is an obvious imbalance between the races and you force the imbalance away by using very specific maps then the total set of maps that can be used shrinks. If we don't want all the maps to look the same and we still want balance we need to balance it from both ends. If we don't have a wide variety of different possible maps then the game will get boring. If none of the maps are balanced it will also get boring. I think a good idea is to first try to balance it through balance changes and then try to balance through maps and only add very slight balance changes after that point. I'm not sure we have reached that point yet. It will take careful balancing on both sides, but I think it would be a lot easier to get to that initial balance point on maps that are easier to balance for. I think it would be a nightmare to find a perfect balance on these maps. I also think it's easier to balance maps than actual gameplay. | ||
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rockon1215
United States612 Posts
If every BW map were designed like Blue Storm, mutas would simply be imbalanced against Terran. When in reality, it was simply a feature of the map (the nat cliff that disallowed any good turret placement) | ||
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Gentlebite
United States132 Posts
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
But the old Blizzard managed to balance SC in time, even on shitty ladder maps. So give it more time and hopefully they don't pull a WC3 on SC2, where in its death throes it's still unbalanced. | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
On August 27 2010 11:21 .risingdragoon wrote: I said even before SC2 came out that these maps are gonna be considered crap once we learn how the game is really played, and that gimmicks like watchtower and the dumb expo rock are gonna fall by the wayside. But the old Blizzard managed to balance SC in time, even on shitty ladder maps. So give it more time and hopefully they don't pull a WC3 on SC2, where in its death throes it's still unbalanced. ... if you start removing things like watchtowers and LOS grass you begin to remove what makes sc2 sc2. i think the gameplay style of sc2 is faster and more aggressive and for the current map pool that is perfect. i mean playing on some of the bw remakes just feels out of place. some of them are just way to big. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
It may be faster, nobody can argue that, but it's less nuanced. You can blame player skill to a very small degree, but to me it's still the way the game is made to look right now, the amoeba-like group animation, etc. Tester also made the point that hard counters are too effective which is another good point. And without the nuances, you can't overcome small degree of imbalance with skills, much less large imbalances. | ||
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Buddhist
United States658 Posts
Can I get a list of examples from specific parts of specific maps and in what specific way they are imbalanced? | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
I'd be very angry if I have to pay 10$ or something for a map pack. | ||
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Buddhist
United States658 Posts
On August 27 2010 09:12 Alexstrasas wrote: This ideia might sound kinda crazy BUT Wouldn't be really cool if someone did a tournament were they would just thrown in random unkown maps and the players would just have to adapt on the spot ? First it would open up the map pool ALOT. Second it would be a nice test to see if the players have that something extra to cook something on the spot. This already happened. The first cyberneticpunks open tournament used some maps like Destination and Match point. I was seriously like, "wtf? I've never played on these maps before :/" And btw, I think the watch towers, grass, and destructible items make maps better in most cases. They just add more to what you have to consider when playing the map, and create more points of interested and more interesting nuances. | ||
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_Darwin_
United States2374 Posts
On August 27 2010 11:36 Buddhist wrote: At the risk of seeming ignorant, exactly what is imbalanced about the current maps in the pool? Can I get a list of examples from specific parts of specific maps and in what specific way they are imbalanced? Quoted from the OP: cliffs and narrow spaces Cliffs and narrow spaces are prevalent on most sc2 maps. Think thor drop on Lost Temple, drops on Kulas Ravine, and seige lines outside the natural on Steppes of War. This is coupled with narrow paths which do not allow the zerg to easily surround or swarm the opponent, and this is an issue for almost every zerg unit. I think a minor 5 second build time increase for either barracks or reapers and gateways would address a lot of the problem. Also adding more Metalopolis-esque maps would help a lot too. | ||
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TheAngelofDeath
United States2033 Posts
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Buddhist
United States658 Posts
On August 27 2010 11:45 _Darwin_ wrote: Quoted from the OP: Cliffs and narrow spaces are prevalent on most sc2 maps. Think thor drop on Lost Temple, drops on Kulas Ravine, and seige lines outside the natural on Steppes of War. This is coupled with narrow paths which do not allow the zerg to easily surround or swarm the opponent, and this is an issue for almost every zerg unit. I think a minor 5 second build time increase for either barracks or reapers and gateways would address a lot of the problem. Also adding more Metalopolis-esque maps would help a lot too. Most of these factors of map design just don't seem very... intuitively imbalanced. Narrow paths, of course, favor the unit with longer range, but cliffs themselves can be abused by all races. One subtle example: Zerg players use the cliffs by the naturals on LT every game to keep their overlord out of vision while still in range to see everything there, giving them safe and useful scouting information. | ||
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