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United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2010 13:50 Ballistixz wrote:
ok i think i see what your saying now. the impression i got from this thread is "make a map and done, solve everything. game is perfectly balanced". but your saying to let the community handle one of the issues (the maps since thats all we have control over) and let blizz handle the other stuff that we have no control over right?
Yes.
Maps do 2 things that balance patches can't:
1) They can change quickly, when Blizzard has to test and evaluate much more strongly for a balance patch because the changes are hard to revert. A bad map can just be removed from the map pool. Undoing a balance change in a patch invariably causes a shitstorm (read the beta responses to the removal of Frenzy/reversion of Infested Terran).
2) They can continue to work even after Blizzard has abandoned support for the game.
The first is relevant now, because Blizzard's balance patch is still in the works. The second one will be necessary if SC2 is to survive as an e-sport.
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On August 18 2010 13:50 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 13:44 TheYango wrote:On August 18 2010 13:41 Ballistixz wrote:On August 18 2010 13:28 TheYango wrote:On August 18 2010 13:26 Ballistixz wrote:
yes it does. but its not the sole factor. if it was then MANY of the balance changes like roaches being 2 supply and such should still be in the game since it could have been solved by the making of maps. but that is the wrong way about going about the issue. why make maps solely to depower a overpowered race? why make race specifically to solve balance issues in a match up when all the other match ups are fine? especially when with all the previous nerfs that happened yet no one yelled "change the maps then it would be fine"
so why now are ppl starting to blame maps now that terran are imba? Because map publishing wasn't available until the patch after the roach nerf? so you are saying that you didnt blame the maps because they were no publishing yet now you are going to say that making certain maps will balance out everything without even testing any of them? first of all map publishing was out for a pretty long time. there were even MANY discussions about maps since ppl were messing around with the editor before map publishing was available. yet nothing was brought up about balancing the current issues at the time with maps. only now is there any real discussion towards it. and its a blind discussion because people are ignoring the whole facts about why the match ups are how they are right now. basically what your saying is "make new maps and that will solve everything!" thats bull shit and u know it. like i said maps arnt going to solve all the issues that are in the match ups right now. Read my edit. Maps are not the only way to make changes. But there's no real point in differentiating map changes and racial changes. They're balance changes any way you slice it, and seeing as maps are the only way for us as the community to actually affect the balance, we may as well use it. ok i think i see what your saying now. the impression i got from this thread is "make a map and done, solve everything. game is perfectly balanced". but your saying to let the community handle one of the issues (the maps since thats all we have control over) and let blizz handle the other stuff that we have no control over right?
I completely agree with this. I think the problem is that there is no good way at the moment to get a lot of testing for maps.
WHY DID YOU MAKE SUCH A RETARDED CUSTOM MAP SYSTEM BLIZZARD!?!
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10387 Posts
Like I've said before, tournaments should start pushing their own maps or maps from the community into play, and force them into play by doing a fixed map order. This is the only way we're going to get to know what works and what doesn't work in terms of map design.. please let it not be like WC3 where map pool stagnates for multiple years.
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Pretty good points, but in the end no map is perfectly balanced, let's not forget that.
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On August 18 2010 14:06 ArvickHero wrote:
Like I've said before, tournaments should start pushing their own maps or maps from the community into play, and force them into play by doing a fixed map order. This is the only way we're going to get to know what works and what doesn't work in terms of map design.. please let it not be like WC3 where map pool stagnates for multiple years.
This is why the iccup map tournament is so good, we need more of this type of tournament.
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10387 Posts
On August 18 2010 14:07 zomgtossrush wrote:
Pretty good points, but in the end no map is perfectly balanced, let's not forget that.
so, lets keep making new maps with new concepts and variations on the ones already known, and have these played extensively so that map makers have good data to work with, and we can get damn close to that perfectly balanced map.
The perfect setting to do so is in a tournament, where something is actually on the line to make people care enough to practice the maps and abuse it.
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On August 18 2010 14:01 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 13:50 Ballistixz wrote:
ok i think i see what your saying now. the impression i got from this thread is "make a map and done, solve everything. game is perfectly balanced". but your saying to let the community handle one of the issues (the maps since thats all we have control over) and let blizz handle the other stuff that we have no control over right? Yes. Maps do 2 things that balance patches can't: 1) They can change quickly, when Blizzard has to test and evaluate much more strongly for a balance patch because the changes are hard to revert. A bad map can just be removed from the map pool. Undoing a balance change in a patch invariably causes a shitstorm (read the beta responses to the removal of Frenzy/reversion of Infested Terran). 2) They can continue to work even after Blizzard has abandoned support for the game. The first is relevant now, because Blizzard's balance patch is still in the works. The second one will be necessary if SC2 is to survive as an e-sport.
ok then, i agree with in that regard.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2010 14:14 ArvickHero wrote:
The perfect setting to do so is in a tournament, where something is actually on the line to make people care enough to practice the maps and abuse it.
It's unfortunate--I think the best tournament style to actually test a map is in Proleague. First, you get balance ideas not just based on results, but also on race selections. Second, maps don't become overly disruptive to the tournament--they're relevant enough for people to practice and abuse the maps, but not enough that they might overly skew the end results.
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I hope that blizzard will start filtering out unbalanced maps and adding new ones to the ladder.
P.S. I love the admins on T.L, they really keep this community clean.
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The question is whether Blizzard is willing to significantly change the map pool in order to examine balance. I remember that during one of the dev chats in beta someone brought up the question of balance through map pool changes like it was done by the community in BW. Dustin Browder responded that he felt the community had to resort to such measures because they could not change the core game and that for SC2 Blizzard would rather patch the game itself on the current map pool instead of changing the maps to create balance.
So far, all the major tournaments seem to be sticking to the Blizzard ladder maps, and if GOM TV decides to continue that for their 2011 league then the game will have to be balanced on these maps, however bad they may be.
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I completely agree, the official laddermaps are made for quick and fast games that don't go past 20 minutes.
It caters more to your average casual gamer who wants quick fun and which is the big majority.
I can understand that from a business point but it also does make sense, the tournament scene shouldn't ladder anyway that much, they should practices with partners and stuff, so I think it's okay that the ladder consists of faster smaller maps.
I do hope that the tournaments will all start using new custom made maps especially made for competitive gaming.
Maybe, if blizzard ever adds the proleague division, they will be smart enough to include popular tournaments maps there.
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I think blizzard does need to change the map pool, and see if that helps anything, while either slightly buffing zerg or slightly nerfing terran mech, and I mean very slightly. there's not a huge problem with the racial balance, although everyone probably wants terran to be severely nerfed, but the major problem imo is that playing tvz while turtling is both really strong, and not all that much fun for either player.
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Imo, maps in BW(And maybe in SC2 soon) seem to fight the imbalance by making imbalance.
Basically, I think the races are imbalances(Say, ZvT for an example), and the maps make new imbalances to counter this, and make it balance out.(Say the map is super good for Z vs T).
Now, I actually like this method, but it feels more like a bandaid. I'd prefer it over balancing from Blizz which can't be changed as quickly like maps can.
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im sure we will see new maps when actiblizz figures out how to charge for them.
the maps dont help the balance situation, they probably make it worse, but they are just one part of the problem, not the whole solution.
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It is really difficult to actually read a discussion on these forums because it ends up being a lot of the same arguments over and over again. So sorry if I'm posting stuff that has already been said, thereby making the next person who reads this read the same argument one more time.
Personally, I actually like the maps we have at the moment. I don't think they're perfect, and I don't think they couldn't use some tweaking. But I do like them.
One key thing that I think people should realize is that it's important for maps to be different, because that is how you end up with different games. Take Scrap Station when compared with Metalopolis or Blistering Sands. All 3 of these maps are different, and different playstyles on them are good, for all 3 races.
I do think that we could use more maps in the ladder pool though, and I do agree that the maps we have often focus on confined areas and lots of narrow chokes and cliffs, and one or two more wide open maps may do the game some good. I also see how that may or may not be heavily Zerg favored, but I'd like to watch or play a few games on said maps before forming an actual opinion of the sort. I can see how some of the current maps seem Terran favored.
The current ladder pool has 9 maps. As a Terran player, I can play 3 different kinds of game, TvT, TvP, or TvZ. That means there's essentially 27 different base matches I can play, each of the 3 matchups on each of the 9 ladder maps. If I veto my 3 least favorite maps, that's actually down to 18.
Even adding 3 maps to the pool, would give me 9 different matchups I can play. If I'm vetoing my 3 least favorite maps, that brings me from 18 up to 27. That's a 50% increase in how many types of game I can play, just from adding 3 maps to the ladder pool. That goes a huge way into making the game more diverse, more interesting, and more fun.
I would love to see more maps in the ladder pool, and I'd love for some of those maps to be big, wide open maps like the BW ones listed above. I wouldn't like EVERY map to be like that, because to me, that would be boring. Maps should be different.
I also want to stress something that has been pointed out before, that this is the one avenue the community really can alter if they so choose. Rather than be making dozens of threads on Terran and Zerg balance all the time, us Team Liquid denizens should be going into the map editor, and making maps. There should be some sort of a committee of pro-nerds here that is making maps, and then distributing them on B.net for people to try out.
I'm willing to bet that if a lot of the top rated players endorse a user-made map as better or as good as the Blizzard maps, that Blizzard would be willing to add it to the pool, or at the very least make a map of their own that is extremely similar.
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On August 18 2010 13:31 DeCoup wrote:
I know that maps are a major influence on balance, but setting the goal to balance each class to be balanced on a variety of terrain types should also be taken into consideration. If the balance in based purely or mostly on maps then the diversity of maps available in the future will be effected. Continuing to attempt to balance the races as well to allow equality on a larger pool of terrain types should also be a goal.
I agree competly.
Especially when it comes to distance, the races ought to be balanced. If the distance on steppes favors terran over zerg (and steppes isn't blood-bath short) then that means there's a problem with balance between the races.
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blizzard is still making balance changes on different units. so its not quite yet correct to say that the maps are what makes the game imbalanced. sure it has some imbalances, but all of the units would have to be balanced first.
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lol@the people saying the game should be balanced for bad maps... that is just silly.
Speaking from a spec perspective, another problem with the maps is that they produce incredibly boring games to watch. Games are on brood war map translations are 10 times as likely to be entertaining.
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On August 18 2010 12:54 Ighox wrote:
Bigger maps would be better for zerg regardless though, most of the terran army is pretty immobile, flanking as zerg is great, expanding on large maps would be more safe.
Most of the Terran army is immobile? Sorry, but I'm getting tired of this myth.
Only the tanks are immobile, and that's not even all that true. With Medivacs, Banshees, and Hellions, Terran can easily out harass a Zerg player. Watch the Korean KOTH videos of the Terran who goes on repeated 10+ win streaks. Back at the Terran base, it only takes one Thor to shut down mutalisk harassment.
Off of creep, the Terran army is more mobile than the Zerg army. Every Terran player needs to repeat this to himself.
Because of this, large maps are not going to favor Zerg in SC2. Zerg needs to build a creep highway, and that takes longer on the large open maps that supposedly favor them.
The Terran immobility is a myth. If there is ever to be balance, map-based or otherwise, people need to stop talking about it.
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On August 18 2010 11:53 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
the biggest and most influential issue sc2 has right now are the maps.
maps change evrything in starcraft. its widely accepted that the only remaining imbalance in bw was map imbalance.
blizzard focused on small maps, on gimmicks and abusable terrain. while the pro maps focus on big maps with none or small gimmicks(and only cause only standart would be boring) and terrain that is important from a strategic point of view and not the "oh cliffs evrywhere. guess ill abuse that with tanks/colloxen!" way.
there is a reason why metalopolis is considered the best map, it is kinda big, has many "normal" expos (not blocked,nonisland) and has no weird gimmicks or terrain. it is the most similar to what we had in bw. its the most balanced map and produces the "biggest" games.
this also is the reason why we see so many games that end up in cheesy/allin play. games that end after one fight. games where mass+ 1a wins the game. pretty much the majority of the complains we have/had with sc2 in the early beta are largely related to the maps blizzard provided us with.
Sooo true. The size of the maps is too small and because of this Terran (and Protoss if you use Immortals / Colossi) immobility doesnt matter that much, you get back to your bases to defend fast enough. Zerg do not get to use their mobility to outflank or go around enemies to harrass in the back and obviously small maps are much easier to cheese on as big ones.
On August 18 2010 11:53 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
cause more important right now is that most balance talk is going in the wrong direction
also the other problem:
if blizzard balances the game for the maps we have now we will never have balance on "good" maps that produce good/bw like matches.if we want the game to be more like broodwar the maps should be the target
Sooo true, but it would be hard for Blizzard to admit the fact that they screw up maps IMO.
I am just adding my voice to this in an attempt to make this whining louder than the usual Terran is IMBA shit. Maybe Blizzard will then start to listen. The balance of units is fine IMO, because there is no clear one unit for any race which will guarantee you a victory in a regular fight, so the issues come from "outside the units".
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