EPTCompletely agree with OP, completely agree with Saracen.
Z v T: Current situation and comparison to BW - Page 5
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21247 Posts
Completely agree with OP, completely agree with Saracen. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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Elite00fm
United States548 Posts
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Neverhood
United States5388 Posts
As a zerg player i feel like most of the time i'm just like a machine doing the nearly the same thing every game until lair tech. I've noticed that in ZvT its the T that is always the aggressive one early on and even when zerg decides to muta harass it doesn't catch the terran nearly as off guard as some of the terran options catch zerg players off guard. Finally, the other noticeable thing I feel like zerg is missing from BW is the mobility. OP makes an excellent point in that zerg players can no longer be as selective about where to engage the terran army. A decent terran will be very diligent at clearing out creep once it reaches the center of the map and the only zerg ground unit thats actually good off creep are lings....which got significantly worse since BW. As a zerg player since july/savior days I REALLY hope blizzard addresses the balance issues soon so that ZvT can be fun again, which is probably the biggest contrast when you compare sc2 and sc1 ZvT. | ||
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dcberkeley
Canada844 Posts
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dranko
Sweden378 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 15 2010 12:32 kajeus wrote: Yeah, I'm with you. It was a hilarious post and clearly ironic. Oh well.  If it was soooo clearly ironic, why did it derail the thread? People need to think a little harder before they post sarcasm on the internet. | ||
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afiddy
Canada108 Posts
What zerg needs is new units. | ||
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Necrosjef
United Kingdom530 Posts
During the beta Blizzard seemed hell bent on buffing Terran and nerfing Zerg. Now TvZ is a broken match up. Seems like it is "working as intended" to quote Blizzard. Maybe when Lurker is added in the expansion then things will change but I don't see things changing in the short term for this match up unless Blizzard decide to undo some of the changes to Zerg. The problem lies not in TvZ though but in PvZ which isn't a bad match up. Buffing Zerg or Nerfing terran is simply going to make Protoss weaker or stronger. Although I think that making Roaches 1 food and putting the armour back to 2 and making Hydra +20% hp would possibly solve a bunch of the Zerg problems against Terran, without breaking ZvP. | ||
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voidis
5 Posts
Every match I find my self trying to out maneuver and survive early game and mid game until Tier 3 (15+ minutes) just to be even. If I miss control my speedlings/baneling, hydra or muta even just once I will not survive the early to mid game pushes. It's a up hill battle every game. | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 15 2010 11:26 kidcrash wrote: + Show Spoiler + Fixing map will solve a portion of the problem but i believe there is still a deeper issue. Larger maps are still needed for better flanks and maneuverability. But lets be honest with ourselves here, unless we are willing to wait until the first expansion, TvZ needs some serious balancing. Terran changes (1) 100/100 for stim is a complete joke. This ability is too powerful for such a cheap cost. Needs to be changed back to 150/150 asap. It gives TWO units the ability to increase their DPS for a 100/100 cost. This is just way to versatile for such a cheap price. (2) Missile turrets have ridiculous DPS and attack speed. I'd like so see either a 20% decrease in attack speed or a 35 - 40% decrease in attack speed with a 25 mineral cost decrease as well. At this point muta harass is just a joke, turrets should be a deterrence to muta harass not a 100% nullification. (3) Viking range needs to be decreased by 1-2 range with an upgrade to add the range back for 150/150. This should be a mid/late game upgrade, no earlier than 2.5 tier. Terran has too much range on the ground and in the air. This would make muta harass a stronger option, giving zerg players better map control. Terran needs to make a commitment for air superiority. (4) Bunkers should not offer a full 100% return of cost. Bottom line is, nothing in starcraft should be free. Whether it costs energy, minerals or gas, free costing things do not belong in the SC universe. (Yes, I know it's an up-front investment. In the long term however, it is free.) (5) Tank AI is absolutely ridiculous. You are giving one of the strongest units in the game 100% efficiency on the accuracy of it's target acquisition. Sending in your cannon fodder before your main army should be a viable tactic for dispersing tank lines. Zerg changes (1) Burrow needs to be changed back to 50/50 cost. If your gonna give protoss a 50/50 upgrade (warp gate, not 100% if I'm remembering the cost correctly) and terran a 50/50 upgrade (concussive shells) then there is nothing wrong with giving zerg a cheap upgrade as well. (2) Neural parasite should be at LEAST 20 seconds if not 24-28 seconds long in duration. This is one of the few counters to thor play and needs to be made a viable option again. Without it thor has too few counters. (3) Ultralisk size reduction in the vain of the thor size reduction made during beta. This should possibly be in combination with an AI reworking to allow for better attacks when attacking with lings. Basically the ultralisk needs to stop bumbling around like a drunken asshole when it's trying to attack. (4) Adrenaline glands needs to give zerglings a 25% increase in attack speed instead of 20%. This is more or less to give zerg players more of an incentive to tech to hive in addition to increased zergling effectiveness in late game situations. (5) Hydralisks move too slow off of creep and yes I know we should be spreading creep everywhere on the map to increase mobility. The problem is, the hydras offensive role is severely hampered because odds are, if you are engaging in enemy territory, there won't be creep near your opponents army on that side of the map. It's good for reinforcing and it's good for defensive situations but they become absolute slugs in enemy territory. I do agree that this issue is sensitive due to having a direct consequence on PvZ as well. If there is a way to fix the issue without messing with the balance in PvZ I'd like to see this issue addressed. (6) Roaches got overnerfed in beta and making them 2 supply was just the nail in the coffin. The problem with the roach is, being 1 supply was a bit too powerful in ZvP. I believe a compromise needs to be made. I've seen a few suggestions to make them 1.5 supply for this just seems like a sloppy fix. I believe making them 1 supply with a slight Hp reduction would be a better fix. This is a pretty well done post, I don't agree with everything, but I think it's all reasonable at least. I'd suggest some of the following stuff Roaches - I don't know what I'd do with this unit. 2 Armor would probably turn ZvZ back into roach fest, and I actually like ZvZ right now the way it is (it's really opening up as of late). Right now though Roaches end up feeling more like a drain on your economy or 'make them because you need to blow through minerals' than a unit I actually want. NP - Too short. 20-24 minimum in my opinion. Burrow / Overlord speed / Overlord carry - One of these needs a price reduction, there's a huge influx of stuff zerg needs to spend gas on at lair. These upgrades become less of a benefit and more of another drain. Their prices right now really limit zerg's use of tactics Overlord carry - Training time. The training time on this ability is also a problem. At 130s it comes out too slow, much slower than the other race's dropships. By reducing the training time on this you'd make maps like Kulas and LT at least bearable as zerg. Plus it'd give Zerg some earlier aggression where they can drop before Terran can really get setup. Ultralisks - I think these should be a little different in damage. Maybe 20 +20 Armored instead of 15 + 25. This way they'd kill marines with shields in 3 hits instead of 4. While bio is generally manageable for Zerg I feel like it's not a good situation for the zerg. They really have nowhere to go from ling/bling/infestor in that match-up given that mutas can be so easily accounted for. Biomech (or bio transitioning to biomech) is really awkward for Zerg. So much larva goes to lings/blings and after each battle the zerg is often in no better position to push on the Terran because 1/2 of their army just suicided itself. So while Bio is quite manageable for Zerg, my experience is that zerg lacks a way to really transition from winning fights vs bio to actually winning the game. Especially on smaller maps where bio can keep the zerg on a lower # of bases for longer. On the Terran side... Thor train time - It's absurd right now, 60s for 6 pop unit that works reasonable vs any unit (especially now with NP nerf). Thors aren't the 'problem' unit, but they're a threat that Zerg basically has to account to. I don't feel like their combat prowess is really a problem, but it also feels like my opponent is just able to squeeze out the thor just fast enough to really make a big impact. +5 or +10 training time would really help to keep thor pushes manageable. Blue flame - The other Terran upgrades aren't that big of a deal to me, but blue flame seems like it comes out just a little too fast at a bit too little of a cost. I don't know what I'd change about it, but it seems like it needs to be slowed down. Especially because the Zerg has to be proper teched up to deal with hellions + any unit that requires a tech lab. Maybe there's more that's needed, maybe there's less. But these are the biggest areas I've identified. Even solving this wouldn't resolve some issues with how quickly Terran can react or how cheaply terran can keep up good aggressive, but I think it'd at least give zerg a better shot. | ||
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SiN]
United States540 Posts
On August 15 2010 12:19 MasterAsia wrote: I did the test again. 1 thor kill 5 roaches, both side without upgrade. 6 Thors can kill 72 zerglings, usually you don't have that many. With 12 scvs 6 Thors kill 144 zerglings like a joke. (to me zergling is a slight counter to thors, not hard, and have you ever seen thors pushing out without helions when zerg has like 144 zerglings?) Zerglings are slightly faster than reapers and hellions, but they are countered by those two terran units, which gives terran the control of map when they push out. Huh, I never thought that 5 roaches would kill 1 thor, especially after watching TLO vs Madfrog =P. I don't think that these things that you listed are the problems with ZvT, but there is indeed a problem with TvZ. However, when a Terran player completely rolls a Zerg player, it's because the zerg player was outplayed. If it's an even match and the Terran player wins, it will most likely have something to do with Terran having an advantage over Zerg. I think it's more because of how difficult it is for Zerg to tech(both cost-wise and time-wise). Either the Lair or Hive production time needs to be decreased, maybe both. Also, to the other guy who replied to me, zerglings cost the same as they did in BW, and roaches cost the same as Hydralisks did in BW, although they cost 2 pop instead of 1. Since Hydralisks haven't really replaced any units that were in BW, there isn't anything to compare there. Units are produced far quicker than in BW. Any weakness they have is made up for their decreased production rate. Comparing cost is invalid because Drones are produced quicker in SC2. | ||
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Leeoku
1617 Posts
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MasterAsia
United States170 Posts
On August 15 2010 12:36 Elite00fm wrote: OP your point 5 needs revision, zerg is stronger at low unit counts because of how T armies become exponentially stronger as they get larger, and since the majority of z units are melee/close range, T units standing in a ball protect each other from being attacked individually by z units, greatly diminishing the dps of a zerg army. I added your comments to the OP. Thanks. | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
I would also like to mention that missile turrets are obscenely strong, and completely prevent any mutalisk harassment once they have been constructed. Mutalisks have identical stats as BW, and missile turrets have gained 240%dps and +50hp for only 25 more minerals. When you also consider how marines now have more HP and combat shields, not to mention thor AOE, you notice the once mighty mutalisk is now quite useless, and unable to directly engage enemy forces (nor can you muta micro the same way). Earlier in the beta there were pushes that terrans actually had to react to, namely roaches and mutalisks. Then after the roach was nerfed into the ground and the missile turret and thor was buffed, it became pointless to attempt an attack on a terran base until you have ultralisks or brood lords. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Huh, I never thought that 5 roaches would kill 1 thor, especially after watching TLO vs Madfrog =P. I don't think that these things that you listed are the problems with ZvT, but there is indeed a problem with TvZ. However, when a Terran player completely rolls a Zerg player, it's because the zerg player was outplayed. If it's an even match and the Terran player wins, it will most likely have something to do with Terran having an advantage over Zerg. I think it's more because of how difficult it is for Zerg to tech(both cost-wise and time-wise). Either the Lair or Hive production time needs to be decreased, maybe both. Also, to the other guy who replied to me, zerglings cost the same as they did in BW, and roaches cost the same as Hydralisks did in BW, although they cost 2 pop instead of 1. Since Hydralisks haven't really replaced any units that were in BW, there isn't anything to compare there. Units are produced far quicker than in BW. Any weakness they have is made up for their decreased production rate. Comparing cost is invalid because Drones are produced quicker in SC2. A tricky thing about the Thor/Roach thing is you have to look at range and other factors. 5 roaches only beat 1 thor if they get a good initial arc, and the same applies as you scale up the numbers. Roaches that have to move into position are likely to draw even or slightly lose to a thor on a 1:5 ratio (not to mention the presence of other units which may impede the roaches ability to move up or scvs repairing). The other thing is time & larvae... 5 roaches require 6 larvae (with overlord) which is ~40s of larvae production. So each base (hatch) can support enough roaches to kill 1.5 Thors which is just about the amount of gas you get off 1 base to make thors (you get 223-250 gas/min on 1 base). So time wise you're not really coming out ahead (actually you're behind unless you get an excellent arc and the Terran doesn't invest their remaining minerals into other units) unless you're really able to run off 2 bases. To put it shortly, given that Thors train so fast, roaches aren't really all that great against them. They can kill off thors, but they start at the disadvantage and require better positioning and micro to do so (compared to the thor's ball+a-move). | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
Also, to the other guy who replied to me, zerglings cost the same as they did in BW, and roaches cost the same as Hydralisks did in BW, although they cost 2 pop instead of 1. Since Hydralisks haven't really replaced any units that were in BW, there isn't anything to compare there. Units are produced far quicker than in BW. Any weakness they have is made up for their decreased production rate. Comparing cost is invalid because Drones are produced quicker in SC2. What you're saying is that a 200 food Zerg army is weaker in SC2 than in SC1. This would only be fine if a 200 food Terran army were also weaker in SC2. It is not. By a longshot. Marines have 45 Hp, 55 with an upgrade. There's nothing in SC1 like the Marauder. Thors are very food-efficient, even when you count repairing SCVs. And while Siege Tanks are less food-efficient, the rest of the Terran army has only gotten better. This is not good. The Zerg army got weaker while the Terran army got stronger, food-for-food. Even worse, certain Terran units got a production boost from Reactors: you can get Marines or Vikings very fast (or for less infrastructure, however you want to measure it). So even if the Zerg stockpiles scores of larva and food, the Terran can still rebuild reasonably quickly after a fight. I agree that the Lair/Hive needs to be faster. But there need to be a few other changes to rebalance things. | ||
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Rakasha
Canada71 Posts
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