EPTGonna say it in every thread. Maps need to be bigger and more open. Mech is terrible on those kinds of maps in both BW and SC2.
Z v T: Current situation and comparison to BW - Page 4
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
Gonna say it in every thread. Maps need to be bigger and more open. Mech is terrible on those kinds of maps in both BW and SC2. | ||
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
 But I still feel there are way too many threads about this issue. Hopefully Blizzard realizes that something needs to be done. | ||
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FuryX
Australia495 Posts
it just seems a little bit easier for p/t (especially t) to tech up and have a lot of options/upgrades. and it kinda shows when t can rush to a t3 unit like thor very easily. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On August 15 2010 11:59 jalstar wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137820 Gonna say it in every thread. Maps need to be bigger and more open. Mech is terrible on those kinds of maps in both BW and SC2. Now that I think about it, not a single ladder map has much open space... someone make Python for SCII already... :0 | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
i agree with 1-2-4 the most, and point 3 i don't mind too much except nerf damn concussive shells somehow, longer time more cost. it's quite ridiculous atm considering the cost and research time | ||
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
On August 15 2010 11:38 Colts-500 wrote: i dont think you mentioned what terrans could do against zerg in BW wat could the terrans do?? almost nothing i think, but im also noob at sc1 so dont take my word but they were stuck with in the confines of one build mech. and nothing else im just saying it seems kindave fair that that happens and terrans never whined bout it either so just wait for a while and if things dont get better in a few months or till next year then complain just not now because all of u coming from bw are not used to having to deal with terrans winning so just wait and learn to play Please refrain from making such an incredible ingorant statement. | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
On August 15 2010 09:55 iEchoic wrote: Wow, this list is just... atrocious. Ghosts/nukes is not a viable opening strategy against zerg. Half of those aren't even openings. Viking opening is terrible and is rarely used anymore. Hellion and pure mech are usually the same. Dropships aren't an opening, they come out of the starport and you need things to drop out of them. And yet with such broad criteria, you say the only Z opening is speedlings/roaches. neans has abused me many times with vikings as has hincram im pretty sure its his standard tvz | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On August 15 2010 11:03 Saracen wrote: This guy is a good player. Even if you don't like what he's saying or disagree with it, at least respect him because he's significantly better than anyone else who's posted in this thread so far. The problem is exactly what MasterAsia stated in the OP: at lower levels, he can still win ZvT no problem. But once he players better and better players, it becomes harder and harder to win. At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." People like Sheth can hardly take any games off of their Terran teammates in practice, even versus ghost/hellion/marauder strategies. Do you really think that's because Qxc/drewbie/CauthonLuck are just so much better than Sheth? You can argue all you like about the matchup in your mid-level 500 point Diamond ranks, but the truth is it's really different at the top. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On August 15 2010 12:03 synapse wrote: Now that I think about it, not a single ladder map has much open space... someone make Python for SCII already... :0 Wouldn't really help ladder though, only blizz maps are on rotation. | ||
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shrinkmaster
Germany947 Posts
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
Like 7 game ago i took a personal policy of no spine crawlers. | ||
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Huntsman
New Zealand36 Posts
On a side note on balance, I don't think that a lot of people are taking into account how delicate balance actually is, and Blizzard I'm sure knows this. They are not going to release a patch that fixes one thing but majorly fucks up another, no matter how small the change is. Plus I really do think that we need to wait for at least heart of the swarm to be released as I'm sure that a new unit or two will pop up that could fix it. Or ruin it. What really annoys me is that people completely misunderstand how the tank ai works. It doesn't decide the optimal way to kill an army and distribute its shots as such. What they do is focus down the closest unit and then change, but the way the tank ai works is pointed out here is that they do not fire simultaneously. Instead they fire one at a time, but they do it so fast that no one notices it. And, like is stated, because their shot's hit instantly, they cannot target a unit that just died, so they switch to another one. While it doesn't overkill (you can't shot dead things), it is not god like as people point out. Changing that ai means that Blizzard will have to redo their entire ai, which will not happen. | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
On August 15 2010 09:55 iEchoic wrote: Wow, this list is just... atrocious. Ghosts/nukes is not a viable opening strategy against zerg. Half of those aren't even openings. Viking opening is terrible and is rarely used anymore. Hellion and pure mech are usually the same. Dropships aren't an opening, they come out of the starport and you need things to drop out of them. And yet with such broad criteria, you say the only Z opening is speedlings/roaches. U sir, are an idiot. All of thos are fast openings. Thors are supposed to be T3, but come out by the 6 minute mark, which is ridiculous and can do thor drops and stuff. Zerg takes at least 18 minutes, more like 25, but if u straight tech i guess, u can get ultras. I agree with everything the OP said User was warned for this post | ||
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MasterAsia
United States170 Posts
On August 15 2010 11:49 GoSu] wrote: I think that if smart ai was removed for tanks, infested terran would be overpowered. Terran flexibility is the same it was in BW. It's one of the race's perks and strong points. Half of these opening strategies you mentioned are not viable. Ghosts/nukes, for instance, doesn't work because 95% of the time Zerg will make an overseer. FE gets destroyed by zerglings and banelings, as does tank rushing. Zerg also has a good number of openings. Openings aren't even important, as in BW, most players did variations of 3 openings: one for each race. Zerg mobility is fine the way it is. Zerglings are faster than both reapers and hellions. Hydralisks MIGHT need a slight movement boost off creep, but that's about it. Creep is easy to spread around anyhow. Although I haven't tested it, I'm pretty sure 1 Thor doesn't kill 5 roaches. Zerg units are weaker than they were in BW because larva spawns a lot faster. During lategame, Zerg has the advantage. Not only can they pump units out quicker than anyone else, but they also have Ultralisks and Broodlords, which are the two strongest units in the game. Saying that Terran has hard counters to Zerg while Zerg has soft counters to Terran is wrong. Zerglings hard counter Thors, Marauders, and unsieged Tanks. Banelings hard counter infantry. Ultralisks hard counter infantry and soft counter Tanks. Broodlords hard counter Thors. Corruptors hard counter Battlecruisers. This list goes on and on, and doesn't help anybody. Nearly every unit has a hard counter and a soft counter. Zerglings/banelings counter Marine/marauder regardless of control if you have the speed upgrades. Saying that Idra is in the pro scene and Terrans are amateurs is ignorant and incorrect. There is no proof backing this up, and Terran players such as qxc, murder, silver, and intotherainbow are deserving of their place. They do just as well against Protoss as they do against Zerg, just as Idra does just as well against Protoss as he does against Terran. I did the test again. 1 thor kill 5 roaches, both side without upgrade. 6 Thors can kill 72 zerglings, usually you don't have that many. With 12 scvs 6 Thors kill 144 zerglings like a joke. (to me zergling is a slight counter to thors, not hard, and have you ever seen thors pushing out without helions when zerg has like 144 zerglings?) Zerglings are slightly faster than reapers and hellions, but they are countered by those two terran units, which gives terran the control of map when they push out. | ||
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sacrificetheory
United States98 Posts
On August 15 2010 10:05 Perkins1752 wrote: Dude it has been said so many times no: 1.Zerg players are worse then the average Terran player 2. Zerg is fine l2p 3. If you are still losing, just use nydus 4. It's the player, not the race 5. Just mass Mutas/Roaches and it's gg 6. Broodlords are awesome just quicktech to Blords and it's gg 7. Just sac an Overlord Others than that, Zerg has superior early-midgame strategies themselves: 1. Banelingbust! 2. Roaches! 3. Alot of other strategies, i don't remember exactly but they are completely awesome 4. Nydus! (It has not been mentioned often, but nydus totally owns) Others than that, Zerg is fine l2p User was temp banned for this post. Obvious sarcasm ( read his sig). I thought it was funny and very true. this is what every nonZerg player is trying to cram in our faces when they dont know anything about playing Zerg. other than that. I think tank AI is ok.. Why punish an improved system? I think the fire rate is just too damn high.. Same with all other high damage units. Thors, and even collosus. I dont know why they changed the fire rate in that patch. Stupidity.. Remember reavers how you could time against their shots? because super high damage but slow fire rate? thats how it should be. Lair is too slow. Considering its our only shot at detection and real units/ anti air. The speed that protoss and Terran can choose to tech is ridiculous compared to zerg... We could try it.. but we have no wall or even mildly efffective defense options. As someone mentioned queens starting with 50 energy would be just a godsend as well. Seeing as how important our creep and spawn larva are. And that our 50 overlord speed upgrade was taken away. Overseers are gargabe and way too expensive and slow/ easy to abuse. should be an upgrade at hive to make all overlords detectors. NP needs to be reverted to permanent. or if it stays 12 secs, castable while burrowed. I would also like to see a burrowed energy regeneration speed upgrade for infestors. maybe come with the +50 starting energy upgrade. but bump the cost a little. | ||
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techtron
74 Posts
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
On August 15 2010 10:05 Perkins1752 wrote: Dude it has been said so many times no: 1.Zerg players are worse then the average Terran player 2. Zerg is fine l2p 3. If you are still losing, just use nydus 4. It's the player, not the race 5. Just mass Mutas/Roaches and it's gg 6. Broodlords are awesome just quicktech to Blords and it's gg 7. Just sac an Overlord Others than that, Zerg has superior early-midgame strategies themselves: 1. Banelingbust! 2. Roaches! 3. Alot of other strategies, i don't remember exactly but they are completely awesome 4. Nydus! (It has not been mentioned often, but nydus totally owns) Others than that, Zerg is fine l2p User was temp banned for this post. damn such an epic post sorry to see him banned, it basically perfectly satirizes the typical terran poster trying to teach top zerg players how to play "abuse immobility...! " "sac an overlord" "..techswitch..duh..ezgame" im getting a little tired of hearing these pseudo pros telling the top level zerg players these ridiculously simple ideas as if they've gone unexplored | ||
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kajeus
United States679 Posts
On August 15 2010 12:28 billyX333 wrote: damn such an epic post sorry to see him banned, it basically perfectly satirizes the typical terran poster trying to teach top zerg players how to play "abuse immobility...! " "sac an overlord" "..techswitch..duh..ezgame" im getting a little tired of hearing these pseudo pros telling the top level zerg players these ridiculously simple ideas as if they've gone unexplored Yeah, I'm with you. It was a hilarious post and clearly ironic. Oh well.  | ||
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Veritassong
Canada393 Posts
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MasterAsia
United States170 Posts
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