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On August 15 2010 10:43 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 10:39 andeh wrote:
fix the maps = fixes the game
this is how broodwar was balanced, sc2 will become solved the same way This. In fact, it seems pretty difficult for an RTS to be imbalanced at all with the map factor. Zerg weak, make 'zerg-favored' maps; it'll balance out. You think Brood War is balanced? Maybe, but on the original Blizzard maps things change.
That might ensure that the game is not biased when players with equal skill play, but it does nothing to make Zerg more interesting to play and watch.
MORE OPTIONS!
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This will make the zerg very difficult to survive after a big battle. In BW, if after a big battle, there are 5 marines left on the battle field, the newly-made zerg units will crash them + the newly-made terran units because in small number zerg dominates (also tanks are not in good position, medics and marines are not perfectly matched, etc). Now in SC2, if after a big battle, there are 5 marines left, with both side has the similar volume of reinforcement coming, Zerg dies.
I gotta say i find this to be a really interesting point. The matthew effect is absurd on ZvT once you lose a battle its pretty much all over. It has happened to me in a lot of game latetly that when i can fight the Terran ball but dont beat it the reamining units still beat the shit out of me and i just have to make an ENTIRELY NEW unit group to fight it back.
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get rid of the queens heal spell and replace it with a spell similar to eye of kilrogg in warcraft II
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This guy is a good player. Even if you don't like what he's saying or disagree with it, at least respect him because he's significantly better than anyone else who's posted in this thread so far. The problem is exactly what MasterAsia stated in the OP: at lower levels, he can still win ZvT no problem. But once he players better and better players, it becomes harder and harder to win. At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." People like Sheth can hardly take any games off of their Terran teammates in practice, even versus ghost/hellion/marauder strategies. Do you really think that's because Qxc/drewbie/CauthonLuck are just so much better than Sheth? You can argue all you like about the matchup in your mid-level 500 point Diamond ranks, but the truth is it's really different at the top.
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On August 15 2010 10:44 Grimjim wrote:
Holy shit. This guy is the 5th best Zerg in the USA and he still gets flamed by Platinum level Terrans on TeamLiquid.
Have you no shame, Terran players? You're the Night Elves of Starcraft ll.
Not all Terran players are just blindly denying imbalance. I play Terran at mid diamond level and I have to agree with a lot of the points raised by the OP.
While I'm not really good enough to judge how the game is balanced at high level I will say that TvT is by far the hardest matchup for me, and once I figured out how to counter the baneling bust the Zerg have been by far the easiest to beat.
I've also played quite a few games as random and found Zerg to be by far the hardest race to play for whatever that's worth.
Having said that, I do think that the imbalance is a bit exaggerated by certain prominent members of the community and it's nowhere near as bad as the Night Elf were in some of the earlier Wc3 builds or the Zerg were when SC1 first came out.
Blizzard have showed in the past that they're willing to work hard to balance their games, and Sc2 will almost certainly eventually be better balanced than Wc3 simply because there's only 3 disparate matchups and 3 mirror matchups to worry about versus 6 and 4
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OP is noob. I hope all you godlike Terran players challenge him and expose the nobody that MasterAsia is!
User was warned for this post
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Great post OP. Very well put and outlines the issues perfectly.
I really hope things can get fixed to make everyone happy. Hopefully the fixes happen sooner than later. The map pool needs to evolve as well, but it is unlikely that we will see more balanced maps any time soon, and if we do it might only be a few out of the pool.
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thor vs muta needs to nerfed so badly. thor/tank/hellion is essentially a hard counter army.
all three of those units do splash/aoe damage, and only muta can do AOE damage, and mutas melt like butter to thors ... 
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I agree with everything except your opening part, please fix that part of your post.
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Fixing map will solve a portion of the problem but i believe there is still a deeper issue. Larger maps are still needed for better flanks and maneuverability.
But lets be honest with ourselves here, unless we are willing to wait until the first expansion, TvZ needs some serious balancing.
Terran changes
(1) 100/100 for stim is a complete joke. This ability is too powerful for such a cheap cost. Needs to be changed back to 150/150 asap. It gives TWO units the ability to increase their DPS for a 100/100 cost. This is just way to versatile for such a cheap price.
(2) Missile turrets have ridiculous DPS and attack speed. I'd like so see either a 20% decrease in attack speed or a 35 - 40% decrease in attack speed with a 25 mineral cost decrease as well. At this point muta harass is just a joke, turrets should be a deterrence to muta harass not a 100% nullification.
(3) Viking range needs to be decreased by 1-2 range with an upgrade to add the range back for 150/150. This should be a mid/late game upgrade, no earlier than 2.5 tier. Terran has too much range on the ground and in the air. This would make muta harass a stronger option, giving zerg players better map control. Terran needs to make a commitment for air superiority.
(4) Bunkers should not offer a full 100% return of cost. Bottom line is, nothing in starcraft should be free. Whether it costs energy, minerals or gas, free costing things do not belong in the SC universe. (Yes, I know it's an up-front investment. In the long term however, it is free.)
(5) Tank AI is absolutely ridiculous. You are giving one of the strongest units in the game 100% efficiency on the accuracy of it's target acquisition. Sending in your cannon fodder before your main army should be a viable tactic for dispersing tank lines.
Zerg changes
(1) Burrow needs to be changed back to 50/50 cost. If your gonna give protoss a 50/50 upgrade (warp gate, not 100% if I'm remembering the cost correctly) and terran a 50/50 upgrade (concussive shells) then there is nothing wrong with giving zerg a cheap upgrade as well.
(2) Neural parasite should be at LEAST 20 seconds if not 24-28 seconds long in duration. This is one of the few counters to thor play and needs to be made a viable option again. Without it thor has too few counters.
(3) Ultralisk size reduction in the vain of the thor size reduction made during beta. This should possibly be in combination with an AI reworking to allow for better attacks when attacking with lings. Basically the ultralisk needs to stop bumbling around like a drunken asshole when it's trying to attack.
(4) Adrenaline glands needs to give zerglings a 25% increase in attack speed instead of 20%. This is more or less to give zerg players more of an incentive to tech to hive in addition to increased zergling effectiveness in late game situations.
(5) Hydralisks move too slow off of creep and yes I know we should be spreading creep everywhere on the map to increase mobility. The problem is, the hydras offensive role is severely hampered because odds are, if you are engaging in enemy territory, there won't be creep near your opponents army on that side of the map. It's good for reinforcing and it's good for defensive situations but they become absolute slugs in enemy territory. I do agree that this issue is sensitive due to having a direct consequence on PvZ as well. If there is a way to fix the issue without messing with the balance in PvZ I'd like to see this issue addressed.
(6) Roaches got overnerfed in beta and making them 2 supply was just the nail in the coffin. The problem with the roach is, being 1 supply was a bit too powerful in ZvP. I believe a compromise needs to be made. I've seen a few suggestions to make them 1.5 supply for this just seems like a sloppy fix. I believe making them 1 supply with a slight Hp reduction would be a better fix.
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i dont think you mentioned what terrans could do against zerg in BW wat could the terrans do?? almost nothing i think, but im also noob at sc1 so dont take my word but they were stuck with in the confines of one build mech. and nothing else
im just saying it seems kindave fair that that happens and terrans never whined bout it either
so just wait for a while and if things dont get better in a few months or till next year then complain
just not now
because all of u coming from bw are not used to having to deal with terrans winning so just wait and learn to play
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 15 2010 10:35 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
Another QQ thread? Shocking! There have been lots of these, go post in those instead of making another thread. People are gonna agree or disagree, but does there need to be 10+ threads about it? No. As I recall, this exact same reply came to the second thread made about ZvT being broken. How does this comment help? The thread has been made, mods will close it if they like.
My thoughts (I agree ZvT is in favor of Terran):
Protoss has been given 10 major additions: Chrono-boost, Warp-gate, 8 new units
Terran has been given 14 major additions: Orbital Command, Planetary Fortress, Reactors, Tech Labs, Lowering Supply depos, 9 new units
Zerg has been given 7 major additions: New queen, 6 new units
I feel that either Zerg needs something more, or needs to have some minor buffs. Terran has been given the most units, most structures, and most abilities. Protoss got warp gates (HUGE) and chrono boost, as well as 8 new units. Zerg however, has only been given 6 new units, along with a new macro mechanic and slight ease to spreading creep.
Some of the following are things removed from races:
Terran- firebat, goliath, medic, valkyrie (all been replaced by similar role units)
Protoss- shuttle, arbiter, corsair, dark archon, reaver, scout (all replaced except D. arch. and reaver)
Zerg- defiler, devourer, gaurdian, lurker, scourge (none replaced except gaurdian and devourer)
I know that Zerg is meant to have less, I just feel like zerg is undeveloped compared to the other races.
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I bet we're going to get some ridiculous fix. Like, spine crawlers now move 20% faster off creep or something stupid.
Anyway back on topic,
Perhaps reducing the amount of time required for Zerg to tech up to higher tiers is a viable solution? This would change the dynamic of PvZ to some degree (earlier hydras, quicker mutas?) but would more require a rethinking of composition and timings on the P's behalf rather than be straight up OP.
Against T it would give us --gasp-- options!
Just food for thought.
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On August 15 2010 11:26 kidcrash wrote:
Fixing map will solve a portion of the problem but i believe there is still a deeper issue. Larger maps are still needed for better flanks and maneuverability.
But lets be honest with ourselves here, unless we are willing to wait until the first expansion, TvZ needs some serious balancing.
Terran changes
(1) 100/100 for stim is a complete joke. This ability is too powerful for such a cheap cost. Needs to be changed back to 150/150 asap. It gives TWO units the ability to increase their DPS for a 100/100 cost. This is just way to versatile for such a cheap price.
(2) Missile turrets have ridiculous DPS and attack speed. I'd like so see either a 20% decrease in attack speed or a 35 - 40% decrease in attack speed with a 25 mineral cost decrease as well. At this point muta harass is just a joke, turrets should be a deterrence to muta harass not a 100% nullification.
(3) Viking range needs to be decreased by 1-2 range with an upgrade to add the range back for 150/150. This should be a mid/late game upgrade, no earlier than 2.5 tier. Terran has too much range on the ground and in the air. This would make muta harass a stronger option, giving zerg players better map control. Terran needs to make a commitment for air superiority.
(4) Bunkers should not offer a full 100% return of cost. Bottom line is, nothing in starcraft should be free. Whether it costs energy, minerals or gas, free costing things do not belong in the SC universe. (Yes, I know it's an up-front investment. In the long term however, it is free.)
(5) Tank AI is absolutely ridiculous. You are giving one of the strongest units in the game 100% efficiency on the accuracy of it's target acquisition. Sending in your cannon fodder before your main army should be a viable tactic for dispersing tank lines.
Zerg changes
(1) Burrow needs to be changed back to 50/50 cost. If your gonna give protoss a 50/50 upgrade (warp gate, not 100% if I'm remembering the cost correctly) and terran a 50/50 upgrade (concussive shells) then there is nothing wrong with giving zerg a cheap upgrade as well.
(2) Neural parasite should be at LEAST 20 seconds if not 24-28 seconds long in duration. This is one of the few counters to thor play and needs to be made a viable option again. Without it thor has too few counters.
(3) Ultralisk size reduction in the vain of the thor size reduction made during beta. This should possibly be in combination with an AI reworking to allow for better attacks when attacking with lings. Basically the ultralisk needs to stop bumbling around like a drunken asshole when it's trying to attack.
(4) Adrenaline glands needs to give zerglings a 25% increase in attack speed instead of 20%. This is more or less to give zerg players more of an incentive to tech to hive in addition to increased zergling effectiveness in late game situations.
(5) Hydralisks move too slow off of creep and yes I know we should be spreading creep everywhere on the map to increase mobility. The problem is, the hydras offensive role is severely hampered because odds are, if you are engaging in enemy territory, there won't be creep near your opponents army on that side of the map. It's good for reinforcing and it's good for defensive situations but they become absolute slugs in enemy territory. I do agree that this issue is sensitive due to having a direct consequence on PvZ as well. If there is a way to fix the issue without messing with the balance in PvZ I'd like to see this issue addressed.
(6) Roaches got overnerfed in beta and making them 2 supply was just the nail in the coffin. The problem with the roach is, being 1 supply was a bit too powerful in ZvP. I believe a compromise needs to be made. I've seen a few suggestions to make them 1.5 supply for this just seems like a sloppy fix. I believe making them 1 supply with a slight Hp reduction would be a better fix.
Honestly, there is nothing wrong with zvt in the late game. The fact is that zvt never even makes it to the late game because of the myriad of options terran has in the early game. All nerfs or balance changes I would consider should be changes to early game terran, especially since terran doesn't have too many options in the early game against protoss; so, changes to terran in early game would have little effect on zvp balance. Zvp imo is very adequate in terms of balance.
Slight changes to terran early game as well as mayb the 50/50 upgarde for burrow to increase zerg versatility would be the only alterations I would implement. Additionally, someone should convince Blizzard to actually have a better map pool for Diamond players, since maps can go A LONG WAY to balancing the game.
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On August 15 2010 11:39 Sealteam wrote:
I bet we're going to get some ridiculous fix. Like, spine crawlers now move 20% faster off creep or something stupid.
Anyway back on topic,
Perhaps reducing the amount of time required for Zerg to tech up to higher tiers is a viable solution? This would change the dynamic of PvZ to some degree (earlier hydras, quicker mutas?) but would more require a rethinking of composition and timings on the P's behalf rather than be straight up OP.
Against T it would give us --gasp-- options!
Just food for thought.
That is a terrible idea and would break more than it would fix.
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On August 15 2010 10:35 MasterAsia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 10:27 danl9rm wrote:
I feel the exact same way.
Except I think it only took 3 zerglings to kill a zealot in BW. Is my memory wrong? You are right. I said 4 zerglings kill one zealot just because they cost the same money and food. In SC2 4 zergling can not kill a zealot if the zealot is with good control.
I see, that makes sense.
I also wholeheartedly agree with the AI argument. People are always talking about how good speedlings with the "perfect surround" (lol) AI are, however, it's not zerg that benefits from this AI, it's the other 2 races.
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Good points. I don't know how people can deny the zerg weakness after reading all the clearly stated posts from all the top players.
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I think that if smart ai was removed for tanks, infested terran would be overpowered.
Terran flexibility is the same it was in BW. It's one of the race's perks and strong points.
Half of these opening strategies you mentioned are not viable.
Ghosts/nukes, for instance, doesn't work because 95% of the time Zerg will make an overseer. FE gets destroyed by zerglings and banelings, as does tank rushing.
Zerg also has a good number of openings. Openings aren't even important, as in BW, most players did variations of 3 openings: one for each race.
Zerg mobility is fine the way it is. Zerglings are faster than both reapers and hellions. Hydralisks MIGHT need a slight movement boost off creep, but that's about it. Creep is easy to spread around anyhow.
Although I haven't tested it, I'm pretty sure 1 Thor doesn't kill 5 roaches.
Zerg units are weaker than they were in BW because larva spawns a lot faster.
During lategame, Zerg has the advantage. Not only can they pump units out quicker than anyone else, but they also have Ultralisks and Broodlords, which are the two strongest units in the game.
Saying that Terran has hard counters to Zerg while Zerg has soft counters to Terran is wrong. Zerglings hard counter Thors, Marauders, and unsieged Tanks. Banelings hard counter infantry. Ultralisks hard counter infantry and soft counter Tanks. Broodlords hard counter Thors. Corruptors hard counter Battlecruisers. This list goes on and on, and doesn't help anybody.
Nearly every unit has a hard counter and a soft counter.
Zerglings/banelings counter Marine/marauder regardless of control if you have the speed upgrades.
Saying that Idra is in the pro scene and Terrans are amateurs is ignorant and incorrect. There is no proof backing this up, and Terran players such as qxc, murder, silver, and intotherainbow are deserving of their place. They do just as well against Protoss as they do against Zerg, just as Idra does just as well against Protoss as he does against Terran.
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On August 15 2010 11:49 GoSu] wrote:
Zerg units are weaker than they were in BW because larva spawns a lot faster.
so they are weaker but cost much more? Sounds... incorrect.
I dont agree with any of your post.
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Brilliant post by OP. I completely agree.
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EPT
