EPTDimaga may switch to Terran - Page 18
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Brad
2754 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 15 2010 07:45 Traveler wrote: Your saying its imbalanced because people cry when they lose? What other proof do you need? If zerg wins the same ratio of games at different levels (top diamond, middle, and lower, and the other divisions) then what more do you need in order to make a valid argument that there is no existing imbalance? I hope that those who believe in this imbalance despite facts, are going into or are currently in professions that don't require a lot of math. Because the first thing you learn in any statistics course is, that there cannot be much uncertainty when you have a ton of numbers all saying the same thing. I hope you aren't going into statistics either. The data that points to Zerg being balanced has a lot of external variables that make it hard to point to as reliable data. Your chances of winning on ladder have much more to do with your play skill than racial limitations and your rating has nothing to do with where you are on the global ladder for match making (see Blizzard's top list vs the rankings you listed) The fact that Zergs appear to be under represented in later rounds of tournaments, Blizzards top X lists, and pro players are abandoning zerg are all signs that point towards a possible issue and are statistics that have far fewer issues with the data being influenced by other factors. | ||
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Perkins1752
Germany214 Posts
On August 15 2010 07:45 Traveler wrote: Because the first thing you learn in any statistics course is, that there cannot be much uncertainty when you have a ton of numbers all saying the same thing. So there actually are people who are that stupid? You took a lot of those statistic courses, didn't you? This has been explained multiple times now, i am not gonna repeat it. Get your facts straight, think and then post. | ||
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Kaasflipje
Netherlands198 Posts
On August 15 2010 04:20 Brad wrote: So lets say DIMAGA practices Terran for the next 6 months, and then Terran gets nerfed. Where is he then? Playing a race because of balance in a game environment where it's going to change monthly is ridiculous. His ZvT will be the best ever :p | ||
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Traveler
United States451 Posts
Problem with this analysis: this is assuming that players play races that are more powerful, and thus the higher percentages of Terrans and Protosses in the ladder represents the respective power of those races... Perhaps you have heard of the current recession in America and other countries around the world. This recession is not caused by a lack of money, jobs, or resources, but rather by a collective caution fueled by brief hysteria over triggering events. People believe it is unsafe to invest and unsafe to take risks, and thus this actually causes the recession as the money-multiplier decreases due to this cautious attitude. Same thing applies here, people hear that Terran and Protoss are more powerful than zerg, or perhaps just that zerg is underpowered, and thusly decide to play Terran and Protoss. Of course this analysis does have a valid point in that Blizzards matching system may be causing "imbalanced" races to be matched up against higher and higher level zergs and winning, and thus appearing to be the same skill level. This could show up in the rankings as a higher proportion of Terrans and Protosses, but then we would see a higher distribution in the upper ranks as compared to the distribution in the lower ranks, and yet we see a higher percentage of diamond zergs than zergs in lower ranks. Just a little food for thought. | ||
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AssuredVacancy
United States1167 Posts
Exactly. I remember in an old interview with sAviOr, where he responded to the question of whether he plays other races in practice, he responds with saying he plays terran, because he feels that he knew all there is to know about zerg, and the only way to improve his zvt is to play terran and learn the weaknesses from the other side. | ||
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vengee
Canada52 Posts
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Tritonus
Denmark125 Posts
On August 15 2010 07:51 MichaelJLowell wrote: You know, it would be really nice if Blizzard had designed their current incarnation of the "Armory" to include "vs. Race X" stats. So when a Zerg complains about Terrans, we could see whether their stats are consistent. Yeah this also really bugs me. WC3 even had a "win % with X race" in the profile. Recently rolling random after playing mostly zerg and slightly less protoss in beta, and just playing terran in the campaign on hard, I think my skill level with each race ranks as follows (1 being best and 3 being worst): 1. Protoss 2. Zerg 3. Terran And then my winning percentage ranks: 1. Protoss 2. Terran 3. Zerg But I have no way to actually prove these facts because the data simply isn't available  B.net 2.0 really is almost as big a fail as windows vista. | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
Look, IdrA is far better than everyone else and that's why. If all the good Zerg had the same W/L ratio, then you could argue something. Plus, he clearly thinks Terran is OP and it's really the only race he loses to. Unless it's Tester... | ||
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
On August 15 2010 08:00 AssuredVacancy wrote: Exactly. I remember in an old interview with sAviOr, where he responded to the question of whether he plays other races in practice, he responds with saying he plays terran, because he feels that he knew all there is to know about zerg, and the only way to improve his zvt is to play terran and learn the weaknesses from the other side. And look where savior is now? lol :D On August 15 2010 08:01 sjschmidt93 wrote: For the moron that decided to say that Zerg isn't UP because IdrA is doing well, you're crazy. Look, IdrA is far better than everyone else and that's why. If all the good Zerg had the same W/L ratio, then you could argue something. Plus, he clearly thinks Terran is OP and it's really the only race he loses to. Unless it's Tester... Ofcourse, lol. IdrA isn't unbeatable. He loses games like everyone else, the fact that he is zerg though makes for an argument. He says X is imbalanced and then when he figures out how to beat X, Y suddenly is the new imbalance. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On August 15 2010 07:45 Traveler wrote: Your saying its imbalanced because people cry when they lose? The ladder win ratios are a much larger amount of games played than in tournaments. What other proof do you need? If zerg wins the same ratio of games at different levels (top diamond, middle, and lower, and the other divisions) then what more do you need in order to make a valid argument that there is no existing imbalance? I hope that those who believe in this imbalance despite facts, are going into or are currently in professions that don't require a lot of math. Because the first thing you learn in any statistics course is, that there cannot be much uncertainty when you have a ton of numbers all saying the same thing. Move along bro, your fail statistical knowledge is not convincing anyone here. | ||
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KiLL_ORdeR
United States1518 Posts
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Grond
599 Posts
On August 15 2010 06:39 VanGarde wrote: Blizzard has done their job, they have gotten the game out in a balanced state. Yes there are a lot of perceived imbalances going in all directions. There is even a thread about it, while zerg may be struggling with terran mech also keep in mind that if you even entertain the idea of going bio against zerg you are considered a nutcase, and rightly so because bio against zerg on the other hand terran is the underpowered one. The game has been out for a few weeks and some people apparently consider it solved already. I rather leave balancing to the community because thats where the best balancing comes from at this point. New ways to play, new timings and new builds. Often subtle stuff that ends up having a huge impact. If blizzard is going to go in and tinker at this point there is the risk of it doing more harm than good. So you want to make ZvT easier when playing against mech. Awesome, then you also might want to make bio stronger against Z. Making even a slight change to either will have huge effects on other builds in this matchup, and on all the other matchups. You risk ending up with a World of Warcraft situation where balance is an illusion because blizzard tweaks balance every month. Instead of the game being balanced at any one instant, the OP class just jumps around from month to month with the game never being balanced at all. These kind of statements are ludicrous, have you even read the patch notes? Blizzard was making massive changes right up until release. | ||
GTR
51480 Posts
On August 15 2010 08:03 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: I wonder how our lives would be different if Lim Yohwan decided to switch to Protoss because Terran was underpowered on the Korean Pro circuit. i don't know if this has been said yet but around six years ago  ChoJJa had this exact same thought for brood war, but stuck with zerg.here is the thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=4145 "Although I need more advice, I think Terran is an attractive race" He is planning to play Terran after current OGN. He thinks zerg is not so strong, and ZvZ is boring, relative to other races. His manager wants to make him a random player, but Chojja refused, because Protoss is even worse than Zerg. | ||
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Sentient
United States437 Posts
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Traveler
United States451 Posts
On August 15 2010 08:03 tacrats wrote: Move along bro, your fail statistical knowledge is not convincing anyone here. Perhaps you could enlighten us Bro with your superior statistical knowledge? Or do you feel like a 1 line post with quotes is enough to prove something? Anyways, for anyone that has some valid arguing points, I would like to hear them. | ||
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some_noob
160 Posts
On August 15 2010 08:06 GTR wrote: i don't know if this has been said yet but around six years ago ChoJJa had this exact same thought for brood war, but stuck with zerg.here is the thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=4145 Great find ! | ||
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Sentient
United States437 Posts
On August 15 2010 08:08 Traveler wrote: Perhaps you could enlighten us Bro with your superior statistical knowledge? Or do you feel like a 1 line post with quotes is enough to prove something? Anyways, for anyone that has some valid arguing points, I would like to hear them. Win percentages of the ladder are useless, because the matchmaker is always trying to push you towards 50%. All they tell us is that the matchmaker is doing a good job. | ||
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On August 15 2010 07:45 Traveler wrote: Because the first thing you learn in any statistics course is, that there cannot be much uncertainty when you have a ton of numbers all saying the same thing. The problem, good sir, is that numbers are not in the habit of saying anything - which is understandable, considering how few of them have functional mouths. In my experience (and I hope you will not discount this as anedoctal evidence!) it is usually people who say anything, promptly claiming that the poor numbers support them. Of course, sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong; this is why most serious statistical studies think of where they could have gone wrong - and therefore list possible methodology flaws at the end of the paper. Now, I could explain exactly where the reasoning: "The top 100 (score-wise) players have about 63% win ratio regardless of race, so the races are balanced" falls into a logical error, but I think that the following thought experiment will be much more likely to realize that you're making a bad use of statistical data. Suppose that we introduced a fourth race. This race has no units and only a single building, which has an ability that triggers one second after the start of the game. With a 63% chance*, it wins the game; otherwise you lose. Now, this race is obviously imbalanced, since you could pretty much make any household pet of your choice (cat? dog? canary bird? pet rock?) play against a korean progamer and it would still win 63% of the time. Yet, your statistical testing would lead to the conclusion that it is balanced. *it should actually not be 63%, but somewhat higher in order to balance out with the 50% win ratio in mirrors. But you get the idea. | ||
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Memoria
Korea (South)36 Posts
its fucking annoying winning games and always gg op terran noob ... | ||
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