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On August 15 2010 07:05 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 07:02 hoovehand wrote:
as a terran player, i'm hoping terran get nerfed just to stop all these scrubs whining and crying about it.
but then they'll start whining about something else. Pretty much this. Terran will get nerfed and zerg players will still be losing and saying how zerg is still too weak. I think it is really the play style of the zerg players and not the race itself.
This is only partially correct. There will always be people screaming that something in under/overpowered. There are still terran players claiming that terran needs buffs. It's nothing new and will never go away. The difference is when it's just that handful of individuals screaming, or 90% of the entire community.
In the case of zerg, it's not just the handful of people that cry for sake of crying. It's the majority of the people playing zerg, constantly playing in an uphill battle no matter the map or situation. Maps just sometimes make the current imbalance even worse. i.e. Lost Temple.
Edit: Hmm, I've heard from a not so reliable source that Machine has switched from Z to T as well? Is there any truth to this? :\
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On August 15 2010 07:12 Naraka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 07:05 NuKedUFirst wrote:On August 15 2010 07:02 hoovehand wrote:
as a terran player, i'm hoping terran get nerfed just to stop all these scrubs whining and crying about it.
but then they'll start whining about something else. Pretty much this. Terran will get nerfed and zerg players will still be losing and saying how zerg is still too weak. I think it is really the play style of the zerg players and not the race itself. This is only partially correct. There will always be people screaming that something in under/overpowered. There are still terran players claiming that terran needs buffs. It's nothing new and will never go away. The difference is when it's just that handful of individuals screaming, or 90% of the entire community. In the case of zerg, it's not just the handful of people that cry for sake of crying. It's the majority of the people playing zerg, constantly playing in an uphill battle no matter the map or situation. Maps just sometimes make the current imbalance even worse. i.e. Lost Temple.
The thing that gets me, is that there are lists of pro and top players that have switched from zerg, or if they havent switched yet they are expressing their discontent with the ZvT matchup.
But even beyond that, how many top Pro players have you seen say that ZvT is balanced???? Even White-Ra responded acknowledging that there was a problem and saying that "he thinks Blizzard is working on the problem".
The players who are good enough to have credible opinions are pretty much all in agreement that there is an issue. So I dont know why people who are nowhere near that level of skill argue that they are wrong... how many Pros do you see saying the matchup is balanced?
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On August 15 2010 07:05 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 07:02 hoovehand wrote:
as a terran player, i'm hoping terran get nerfed just to stop all these scrubs whining and crying about it.
but then they'll start whining about something else. Pretty much this. Terran will get nerfed and zerg players will still be losing and saying how zerg is still too weak. I think it is really the play style of the zerg players and not the race itself.
In the beginning of the Beta Zergs won a lot. They all played right at that point? Realize it, my friend, Zerg is bullshit at the moment.
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I wish every race was as hard as Z, the game would be much better for it
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The biggest problem with Dimaga switching to Terran is that regardles of patch changes, us Zergs lose yet another player who can help find new ways to play ZvT.
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You cant blame him for switching. It his job.
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On August 15 2010 07:15 IPS.Mardow. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 07:05 NuKedUFirst wrote:On August 15 2010 07:02 hoovehand wrote:
as a terran player, i'm hoping terran get nerfed just to stop all these scrubs whining and crying about it.
but then they'll start whining about something else. Pretty much this. Terran will get nerfed and zerg players will still be losing and saying how zerg is still too weak. I think it is really the play style of the zerg players and not the race itself.
I really don't think you have ever played Zerg at Diamond level.
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Lot of people confusing TvZ balance with T balance, this is sad. (And TvZ is actually, I believe, not as fucked up as people want to think).
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TvZ is a pretty rough matchup if anything I've been watching has been true. With a number of pro-gamers switching, as mentioned earlier, it's kind of silly for people to step in and say "Zerg is fine l2p" when players who have careers riding on their zerg play are expressing actual frustration.
Dimaga potentially switching is understandable, getting wins is what he's paid to do, and right now Zerg's in a state where winning is always stacked against a zerg player. People have been suggesting pretty ridiculous buffs and nerfs, but all that bullshit aside, Zerg could use some improvement in a few areas.
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Wow, I can't believe it. I can't say that I liked Dimaga's style, but I definitely respected and admired him for being a top level Z player in SC2. However, I don't really blame him; if he is certain that he can produce better results playing T, then more power to him, though it's very unfortunate to lose a top level Z when there are few enough already.
Also, to all the people saying this game has been out for only a few weeks, we've been playing it since March, with a version pretty much identical to the current balance patch during the majority of Phase 2.
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Who can blame the terrans for not wanting their race to be nerfed? No one would really. But they were the most buffed in beta overall. And perhaps the effects of that are just starting to trickle in and become evident? If the game is not balanced in any way, everyone, including the race that gets changed, should be agreeable for the sake of competition and the satisfaction of all the players and viewers. I trust Blizzard to make the right judgement call on this, and in the right time.
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On August 15 2010 04:49 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 04:46 Iggyhopper wrote:
Skill gap people, skill gap. Korean player are indeed top players in a list, but that is because they have the amazing APM and skills to actually make Zerg a good race to play as. Doesn't mean that Zerg is balanced, or isn't having trouble in the other 99% of players that can barely manage a 220 APM. APM isn't the issue. Just because 1 player spams between hotkeys more then another doesn't make him a better player. Zerg has to deal with the timings and when to make what. Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 04:45 Nokarot wrote:On August 15 2010 04:43 NuKedUFirst wrote:On August 15 2010 04:41 Nokarot wrote:
You guys all remember that Idra was Protoss early-beta, right? And he switched to Zerg because, at the time, they were the strongest race, right?
All of you are making it out to seem like this is an unspeakable act and/or that your heroes haven't done it before. Dimaga is right- it's his job, and he needs to produce results. If he and his employers think that Terran is the best option, its within their power and reasonably justified. I don't see how IdrA's switch is relevant. It's not like anyone just goes "hey im going to play zerg" without trying it out first. He tried every race and chose what best suited his style. Except he played Protoss primarily, for a decent period of time, and then publically stated that he was switching to zerg because protoss was underpowered and zerg was really strong. So yes, its completely relevent. Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 04:48 floor exercise wrote:On August 15 2010 04:46 Iggyhopper wrote:
Skill gap people, skill gap. Korean player are indeed top players in a list, but that is because they have the amazing APM and skills to actually make Zerg a good race to play as. Doesn't mean that Zerg is balanced, or isn't having trouble in the other 99% of players that can barely manage a 220 APM. zerg sucks in Korea too FOR SURE http://sc2ranks.com/ Do you have a source or are you trying to prove a point? IdrA was playing protoss when warp in was completely imbalanced. I don't think it was a "OP / UP" problem. If so please state the source.
On August 15 2010 03:18 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 03:06 Tritonus wrote:On August 15 2010 02:05 bendez wrote:People needs to stop spreading misconception that zerg is doing fine in korea. This isn't first phase of the beta. http://www.playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/ See this poll? yea enough said. Zerg needs some redesigning. This isn't really up for a debate anymore. Most progamers more or less acknowledges this fact. I can't read korean. Care to explain what that poll is about / what it shows? it's a daily poll since early in the beta where you just vote which race you want to cry about today, it's broken up by certain milestones like patches, tournament results etc, in order to see the trends in the public perception of balance. red is zerg, green is terran, protoss is blue, and purple is none
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It's a bit like professional race drivers.
The best drivers try to get on the best team / fastest car.
Or at least, the one they perceive to be the best choice.
I am very surprised to see so many posters criticise him for switching race - if I were a progamer and I'd see possible success on one side and potential unemployment on the other one, I'd switch without a second thought.
Seeing how quite a few posters already question his ability to play well it seems his reputation has already suffered a bit.
Reputation however, is what makes sponsors pay money. No sponsor can forsee the future and which athlete will win then, so they go for the ones who have been successful in the past, are expected to continue performing well by experts and who can be admired by many fans. The better someone fulfills these points, the more money he is worth to the sponsors.
So maybe he isnt even seriously considering a race switch, but instead trying to protect his reputation by that statement. If nothing else, it will provide an excuse for bad zerg results for a little while, buying him time so his market value will not decrease so fast.
That being said, in my own, highly non-professional opinion, the versatile Terrans do not even seem to need every single trick out of their many available options yet - I expect them to dominate more visibly in the future if nothing is being changed balance-wise.
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On August 15 2010 07:00 Kelberot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 06:59 Traveler wrote:I seem to remember a certain zerg player doing extremely well at the high levels... hmm 85% win rate on the ladder anyone. Jeez, what was his name? Oh right, IdrA. The is no real imbalance between the races. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/all/1/100Check out the statistics. Oh my god what a great argument! No one ever brought this up before in this thread! You're a genius! He's right guys, zerg is fine, l2p!
So wait, you are saying that the numbers lie? That the hard proof, the win ratios are not different enough to be statistically significant, must be false?
Also thank you for the compliments, you may doubt that your compliments could be true, but its ok, this zerg player does just fine against terran.
Good for you to follow the current flow of the crowd, to proclaim the same cry, and thusly fit in and feel intelligent for it, yet we seem to have a great amount of proof that blizzard has balanced the races fairly correctly.
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On August 15 2010 07:35 Traveler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 07:00 Kelberot wrote:On August 15 2010 06:59 Traveler wrote:I seem to remember a certain zerg player doing extremely well at the high levels... hmm 85% win rate on the ladder anyone. Jeez, what was his name? Oh right, IdrA. The is no real imbalance between the races. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/all/1/100Check out the statistics. Oh my god what a great argument! No one ever brought this up before in this thread! You're a genius! He's right guys, zerg is fine, l2p! So wait, you are saying that the numbers lie? That the hard proof, the win ratios are not different enough to be statistically significant, must be false? Also thank you for the compliments, you may doubt that your compliments could be true, but its ok, this zerg player does just fine against terran.
ur saying its balanced because LADDER win ratios are equal?
ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
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On August 15 2010 07:40 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 07:35 Traveler wrote:On August 15 2010 07:00 Kelberot wrote:On August 15 2010 06:59 Traveler wrote:I seem to remember a certain zerg player doing extremely well at the high levels... hmm 85% win rate on the ladder anyone. Jeez, what was his name? Oh right, IdrA. The is no real imbalance between the races. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/all/1/100Check out the statistics. Oh my god what a great argument! No one ever brought this up before in this thread! You're a genius! He's right guys, zerg is fine, l2p! So wait, you are saying that the numbers lie? That the hard proof, the win ratios are not different enough to be statistically significant, must be false? Also thank you for the compliments, you may doubt that your compliments could be true, but its ok, this zerg player does just fine against terran. ur saying its balanced because LADDER win ratios are equal? ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Your saying its imbalanced because people cry when they lose?
The ladder win ratios are a much larger amount of games played than in tournaments.
What other proof do you need? If zerg wins the same ratio of games at different levels (top diamond, middle, and lower, and the other divisions) then what more do you need in order to make a valid argument that there is no existing imbalance?
I hope that those who believe in this imbalance despite facts, are going into or are currently in professions that don't require a lot of math. Because the first thing you learn in any statistics course is, that there cannot be much uncertainty when you have a ton of numbers all saying the same thing.
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On August 15 2010 07:45 Traveler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 07:40 tacrats wrote:On August 15 2010 07:35 Traveler wrote:On August 15 2010 07:00 Kelberot wrote:On August 15 2010 06:59 Traveler wrote:I seem to remember a certain zerg player doing extremely well at the high levels... hmm 85% win rate on the ladder anyone. Jeez, what was his name? Oh right, IdrA. The is no real imbalance between the races. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/all/1/100Check out the statistics. Oh my god what a great argument! No one ever brought this up before in this thread! You're a genius! He's right guys, zerg is fine, l2p! So wait, you are saying that the numbers lie? That the hard proof, the win ratios are not different enough to be statistically significant, must be false? Also thank you for the compliments, you may doubt that your compliments could be true, but its ok, this zerg player does just fine against terran. ur saying its balanced because LADDER win ratios are equal? ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Your saying its imbalanced because people cry when they lose? What other proof do you need? If zerg wins the same ratio of games at different levels (top diamond, middle, and lower, and the other divisions) then what more do you need in order to make a valid argument that there is no existing imbalance? I hope that those who believe in this imbalance despite facts, are going into or are currently in professions that don't require a lot of math. Because the first thing you learn in any statistics course is, that there cannot be much uncertainty when you have a ton of numbers all saying the same thing.
On August 11 2010 18:18 rrowland wrote:I just want to preface by saying I won't be discussing my views on racial balance in this thread. There's enough debate on that going on already. I will only be discussing the misconceptions around ladder statistics, and explaining how to correctly understand them. You can see the current ladder statistics here: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/all/1/all Race Average Win RatioAt the time of post: All races are at 56% in diamond, including random.This is the main statistic I want to address as it's the most commonly cited for "Stop QQing, races are balanced" arguments. The truth of the matter is that equal-looking results will always be present due to how Battle.net 2.0's matchmaking system is designed. When a player loses, he's matched with a lower-skilled player for a better chance of winning. In the end, it always evens out. Doesn't that mean all races are balanced? No, not at all. Let's take an extreme example to illustrate my point: Let's say protoss is so overpowered that even the worst players can beat terran players leagues above them. Bronze protoss player starts playing. He faces a terran player in Gold and wins due to racial imbalance. This continues until bronze protoss begins facing platinum/diamond terran and begins to lose. Eventually it evens out and bronze protoss is considered equal skill with mid-platinum terran. Recorded stats regarding the average of 1000 of these cases would read that terran and protoss both have the same win percentage due to the matchmaking service adjusting who a player is matched against. Snapping out of the hypothetical, we can see the matchmaking system doesn't match based on (skill = skill), rather (skill + racial = skill + racial). This will always equal out to create the illusion of statistical balance regardless of racial inequalities. Furthermore, the fact that 'Random' has roughly the same win percentage as the three individual races should be a clear example of my hypothetical situation. Essentially, random is about 3 times harder to master than any individual race. All random players would have to be much more skilled than any single race player to realistically achieve an equal win percentage in a system that reflected true balance statistics. Race DistributionAt the time of post: 8.6% random, 35.75% protoss, 35.4% terran, 20.23% zerg This is a much more telling statistic. Although it doesn't necessarily represent the balance between races, it does represent the willingness that players have to play each race. When two of the races account for almost 80% of non-random players, each having 75% MORE players than the third race (almost double), it says something about the playability and attraction of the race. Again, not saying any of the races are overpowered or underpowered in this thread, just pointing out what the statistics do and do not reflect. Hopefully I have cleared up some common misconceptions. Statistics are a very easy thing to abuse and misinterpret.
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On August 15 2010 07:45 Traveler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 07:40 tacrats wrote:On August 15 2010 07:35 Traveler wrote:On August 15 2010 07:00 Kelberot wrote:On August 15 2010 06:59 Traveler wrote:I seem to remember a certain zerg player doing extremely well at the high levels... hmm 85% win rate on the ladder anyone. Jeez, what was his name? Oh right, IdrA. The is no real imbalance between the races. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/all/1/100Check out the statistics. Oh my god what a great argument! No one ever brought this up before in this thread! You're a genius! He's right guys, zerg is fine, l2p! So wait, you are saying that the numbers lie? That the hard proof, the win ratios are not different enough to be statistically significant, must be false? Also thank you for the compliments, you may doubt that your compliments could be true, but its ok, this zerg player does just fine against terran. ur saying its balanced because LADDER win ratios are equal? ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Your saying its imbalanced because people cry when they lose? What other proof do you need? If zerg wins the same ratio of games at different levels (top diamond, middle, and lower, and the other divisions) then what more do you need in order to make a valid argument that there is no existing imbalance? I hope that those who believe in this imbalance despite facts, are going into or are currently in professions that don't require a lot of math. Because the first thing you learn in any statistics course is, that there cannot be much uncertainty when you have a ton of numbers all saying the same thing.
Those numbers simply show that matchmaking system is working. No numbers (besides maybe tournament results) can actually show that the equally rated terran and zerg are, in fact, also equally skilled.
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Don't Blizzard constantly reply to the balance issue by stating the global facts of each race being between 50-55% win rates?...
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You know, it would be really nice if Blizzard had designed their current incarnation of the "Armory" to include "vs. Race X" stats. So when a Zerg complains about Terrans, we could see whether their stats are consistent.
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EPT
