EPTWhy is Zerg played less? - Page 7
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TSM
Great Britain584 Posts
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Joroth
United States318 Posts
You can look at statistics or even finals at tourneys If you think zerg is doing just fine atm ask your self when is the last time you seen a tourney game of ZvZ in the finals? | ||
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mesohawny
Canada193 Posts
On August 11 2010 02:10 shlomo wrote: But who cares about lurkers and defilers when you got BANELINGS (which die and then do nothing) and INFESTORS (and their super awesome 12 second, 100 mana research-required NP. or the amazing Infested Terran...) Zerg is just boring, has very little viable openings due to being pigeonholed into at least relatively fast lair (no t1 AA save for the queen which is not exactly ideal as it doesn't really step outside of creep), also lair morph takes about a year (I'm always amazed at the speed your average T or P build can get up to starport/stargate compared to how Zerg is lagging behind for just making some units to avoid getting rolled over) and t3 is unimpressive. Some people are QQing about Ultras being unstunnable, give me a break, if you actually get 250mm, 1-1 ratio of thors to ultras will still roll ultras and stay alive with most of their HP. And if there's any other units on the field, no you won't surround the thors because your shit will get ruined before it can. Doesn't help that T seems to be DESIGNED to kill zerg super efficiently, that Z basically has to sac overlords to get any scouting done before overseers, or that a couple of Thors basically shutdown muta harass because they are so cost-efficient, or just the higher apm requirement in general because of larva inject/tumor/overlord creeping mechanics and constant need for flanking if you want to have a hope of winning a fight... etc etc etc... It's pretty obvious watching high level games that top Zerg players are putting a lot more effort into winning this MU than Terran players who can pretty much sit around in their base not worrying about much then moving out with a timing push that is super hard to resist. Even in ZvP, 2 gate pressure into early void ray is such BS to defend, due to Zerg's awesome AA options. No, you can't make queens while your lair is morphing FYI. Oh and T is just completely retarded with the amount of viable harass openings while simultaneously being the best turtling race and all the noob risk-free bunker salvage, lolspam10mulesallofasuddencauseyoucantotallyforgetaboutitanditdoesntmatter, rofltary fortress, 1-1-1 style being viable because every unit is so cost efficient it doesnt matter if you just sprinkle a little bit of everything, etcetc. You guys can keep debating all you want, it's pretty obvious to anyone without an agenda for their one favorite race here that Zerg is at least slightly UP and T is at least slightly OP. And I don't care if many people shift to Zerg for HotS. Are the idiots here saying we're gonna have a FotM race for each release and that's a-ok? That's not what I'd call a good competitive game, but whatever floats your scrubby boat. *ahem* we have a winner. | ||
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
I having lot of fun, but its difficult because the macro mechanics and multitasking requirements. | ||
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mesohawny
Canada193 Posts
It's that Z is weaker than the other races, making them twice as difficult to net wins with. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
You guys can keep debating all you want, it's pretty obvious to anyone without an agenda for their one favorite race here that Zerg is at least slightly UP and T is at least slightly OP. Playing random, with Z as my fav race...i'd like to rephrase this. "That the ZvT match up slightly favors terran", is how I would put it. Terran is not imbalanced because the TvP matchup slightly favors protoss (not as much though), while ZvP is almost dead even. The ZvT matchup favored terran in BW too. Idc who you are but if you think 4 base terran should have equal footing with a 7 base zerg you should just quit. This is more or less how it was in BW... | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On August 11 2010 02:15 PanzerDragoon wrote: Doing this will probably imbalance ZvP, which is almost perfect right now. The larva mechanic is tough because its by far the most powerful. Terrans mine out their base faster and protoss gets a unit or an upgrade faster. Zerg gets 7 units at once. You realize Terran and Protoss can just build 7 barracks or stargates or factories or what have you, right? The Zerg macro mechanic just puts the swarm at parity with the other two races. I think the main issue is just excitement - Zerg has no fun units besides baneling IMHO. Mutalisk can't be controlled (whoops, Blizzard) and is thus a boring unit, especially with all its hard counters. No swarm, no plague, weak zerglings, delayed tech tiers, no lurker, no scourge - all the fun units to control are just gone. Their replacements fail to inspire (roach? infestor? corruptor? lol) Compare that to banshee, thor, hellion, reaper - all very fun toys, sentry, colossus, phoenix, voidray - also very entertaining. When I first went to Blizz HQ to try out the alpha, Zerg was clearly the most underdeveloped and lacking in polish. I am sad to see that this hasn't changed. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
2) Weak doesn't mean unwinnable. Look at IdrA. He is the best and he still wins with a weak race. 3) I am ranked 40 something in my diamond division. I ONLY play zerg. I am not good (D+ on iccup SC1). But zerg can win games if the zerg user walks a RAZOR's edge between drone production and units. Because you have to play soooo risky to gain an economic advantage as zerg, that means you lose a lot of games to cheese and strong pushes. When you do walk the razor's edge successfully, you end up on top econ wise and win late game. The first pushes may be scary, but not auto-lose. 4) this type of play is deep, beautiful to watch, and fun to play. Just a little more subtly awesome. 5) I still get mad when I am cheesed  | ||
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wantan
United States19 Posts
like for terran you can: reaper harass, helion harass, banshee rush, thor drop, expand to island, proxy, abuse map like lost temple and drop tanks and rines on cliff all the while u can defend ur base with a few siege tanks, turrets, scv with auto repair,rines and medivac and zerg cant do shit. for protoss you can proxy hidden pylons, cannon rush, win with just 3 void rays if they cant get anti air in time, have collosi which smokes the entire ground and abuse them on workers with map that has high ground next to expansion, immortals, stalkers harass with blink, dt rush, harass with phoenix gravitational lift ability all the while u can defend ur base with a few units and sentry that has force field to block off chokes zerg? um mass units,expand, inject larve, and put creep over the places.. then u have ultralisk and broodlords which u wont get b4 they have fun with u and weak ass infesters after u tech to lairs. and if u fail to do a lot of damage with banelings, then ur economically way behind as well as low larve count. for zerg the only fun thing would be burrowing ur units and flanking ur opponent with lots of units, but that shit is hard to pull off and u need to position correctly. multalisk is no fun anymore lol. not to mention that ur whole army can get own in seconds and the game is over by a big terran or toss push. this is the reason why i use terran, soo fun harassing. Edit: i totally agree with shlomo, i started off as zerg during beta and got to rank 10 plat, but then blizzard buff the other races too much and it was extremely difficult to play as zerg so i got frustrated and changed race. what pisses me off the most is that i have to constantly worry about what units they are going and if they are going to harass/rush while trying to go for an expansion. you adapt to them as zerg, they dont have to. | ||
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epi
Canada115 Posts
This has absolutely no balance implications at all, of course. But it probably explains why many lower-level players don't play zerg and why larger-team formats have even fewer zerg, since many players new to multiplayer prefer larger teams to 1v1. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On August 11 2010 02:17 PanzerDragoon wrote: zerg isn't fun because the units are boring and you are limited to almost exclusively many-base macro games unless you go some sorta 1 base muta play. I mean, you basically go 14 pool/15 hatch every game man. I can see why these long macro games are fun to you, and they can be, but not when its basically your only legit standard option against both P and T. Also the Zerg mirror is absolutely horrific, you of all people should know that  you only see my games from us server, its not possible to play micro oriented in 1+ second latency, games like vs zelniq from iem happen. theres massive potential in zerg. mutas can be great, they are microable and unlimited selection makes up for the less than perfect stacking. banelings are very unique and powerful. infestors are good, could be awesome if neural were still useful. even the basic units, roaches have burrow move and hp regen, hydras emphasize how valuable creep is and introduce decision making based around that, zerglings incredible speed. "easiest" mass transport options. broodlords introduce positioning and siege tactics. all the tools are there, its just some key ones arent strong enough, or zerg's shit early game makes it seem that way. | ||
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On August 11 2010 02:29 Half wrote: Playing random, with Z as my fav race...i'd like to rephrase this. "That the ZvT match up slightly favors terran", is how I would put it. Terran is not imbalanced because the TvP matchup slightly favors protoss (not as much though), while ZvP is almost dead even. The ZvT matchup favored terran in BW too. The ZvT matchup might have favored Terran but map control & reaction changed. This is another issue in ZvT in SC2. SC1: marine > ling speedling > marine mnm > speedling mutal = mnm lurker > mnm tank > lurker defiler > tank scivess > defiler so at all these tech tiers you had the players swapping initiative. Compare this to SC2 where Terran has 10+ viable units to open with, and Zerg has to counter. Zerg has two openings where Terran is forced to react, but they are so all-in that they can hardly be considered viable. This is what makes it both an imbalanced and boring matchup for Z. | ||
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
I think most people go for whats familiar to them (Terran) and stick with that. This could be b/c humans pick humans, or b/c they played the Terran campaigns first. Zerg is just mindless hunger bent on killing everything. Their units are cool but they are "gross" with squishy noises, bodily fluids, and ickyness. I remember I was playing as zerg and some kids I knew were saying how disgusting they sound. The diarrhea creep from overlord sound is pretty bad too. I don't know if mechanics has to do with race selection, I picked protoss in BW. I think all the noobs pick Terran so they can turtle and build tanks so they can see a big fight or get BattleCruisers and A move. Zerg doesn't really have that and Protoss does have Carriers. So i have no idea. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
Compare that to banshee, thor, hellion, reaper - all very fun toys, sentry, colossus, phoenix, voidray - also very entertaining. When I first went to Blizz HQ to try out the alpha, Zerg was clearly the most underdeveloped and lacking in polish. I am sad to see that this hasn't changed. Personally I think Zerg is the best developed, while the other races suffer from "overdevelopment". Zerg has no redundant units, every unit has a very clear role, and most important, plays and feels fundamentally different from each other. The other races suffer from an issue where a lot of units, while having different states, function basically identical to each other. Stalkers are completely different units from Immortals, but in practice, can be a-moved with each other. | ||
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shlomo
258 Posts
Or is that just Blizzard topping Zerg with some additional suck sauce? | ||
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GreatFall
United States1061 Posts
Long story short, I got tired of losing team games as Zerg, I switched to Terran and my record with Terran since the change has been 8 wins 1 loss (And that's with random teams where I literally carried the team half the time). I'm not even a Terran player but let me tell you it's a hell of a lot easier to kick butt with Terran when they can wall - in build dirt cheap units and then roll out with a Death Ball and RoflStomp everything on the map. I'll add a replay later tonight. It shows me saying on just 1 base in 3v3 while our Zerg buddy gets owned. I build a ball of upgraded marines with medivacs. My other teammate gets killed by Muta because he had no anti-air afterwhich he laughs at me for only having marines and says 'GG'. I literally roll out and destroy all 3 enemy bases solo with 1 army built off 1 base. And we win. Could Zerg do that off 1 base? Terran own. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
I don't personally think it's the hardest race to play, I think that everyone is very different when it comes to ease of play with races. One of my friends thinks Protoss is the hardest race to play and started out playing Zerg before switching to Terran. According to him he still thinks that Zerg was the easiest race to start out as and swears that he's awful at Protoss and that it's super hard to play. Just saying, I feel like people discredit P as super easy and consider Z to be crazy difficult when I couldn't disagree more. People pick their races, and I don't know what the balance was in Brood War but I think it's definitely more of a popularity vote rather than a "Zerg is too hard/Zerg is underpowered QQ/Zerg takes moar skill" issue. As a Protoss player I can say that while it's painful to admit I imagine that a lot of the younger kids who are getting into StarCraft probably prefer Terran/Protoss simply because they're "cooler" than Zerg. | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On August 11 2010 02:32 IdrA wrote: you only see my games from us server, its not possible to play micro oriented in 1+ second latency, games like vs zelniq from iem happen. theres massive potential in zerg. mutas can be great, they are microable and unlimited selection makes up for the less than perfect stacking. banelings are very unique and powerful. infestors are good, could be awesome if neural were still useful. even the basic units, roaches have burrow move and hp regen, hydras emphasize how valuable creep is and introduce decision making based around that, zerglings incredible speed. "easiest" mass transport options. broodlords introduce positioning and siege tactics. all the tools are there, its just some key ones arent strong enough, or zerg's shit early game makes it seem that way. by all means, upload some replays of you on the Korean server wasn't you versus Tester on the Korean server anyways? | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On August 11 2010 02:35 shlomo wrote: Is there really a rationale behind crawlers taking 30 minutes to burrow btw? From an interview with Dustin he was "surprised" to find zerg relying on spine crawlers to defend while they teched to tier 2. How this type of play can come as a shock to him I don't know, I guess he has never seen a game of Starcraft before in his life. They didn't like it, so they increased the burrow time, and I think they changed something about the damage and attack speed too. | ||
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