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United States47024 Posts
In SC:BW, one of the most interesting aspects of zerg play against mech was how various wall-ins were developed in order to deflect the vulture harassment that often came with mech play:
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/4/45/ZwDestination12.png)
A vulture-tight wall-in setup on Destination
There are a couple aspects of SC2 that seem to promote this style of walling:
1) The ability to uproot Spine Crawlers--this allows you to build "tight" wall-ins that you can later open up by removing the Crawlers. It also lets you reuse the Crawlers at third and future bases
2) 3x3 tech buildings--in general Zerg tech buildings feel a tiny bit larger in SC2 than their SC1 counterparts. The fact that their vertical dimension is a tiny bit larger gives you a little bit more room to play with as far as designing wall-ins goes.
3) The building grid--screwing up wall-ins as offrace Zerg and Protoss was extremely annoying in BW. Fortunately, the building grid makes this almost impossible in SC2.
At the same time, there are unfortunately also aspects that seem to deter walling in:
1) Reapers--Reaper harassment entirely negates early wall-in setups.
2) Queens--While queens themselves can serve as a good "soft" wall, the fact that they negate the need for extra hatcheries means that what could have been a big element in early-game wall-ins is superfluous.
3) Worker pathing--Workers in SC:BW pathed slightly differently than from SC2. While workers in SC1 moved through all units on the way to a mineral patch, they pathed normally on the return trip. This meant that mineral/gas lines acted as sort of a "soft" wall, where units could strictly speaking pass through the mineral line, but would get significantly slowed on the way through, often enough that well placed static defenses could clean them up. In SC2, this isn't possible because workers path through everything in both directions--mining workers do not block unit movement either way.
Perhaps walling isn't useful in SC2, but it's certainly something that I'd like to see tried more often. Indeed on paper it seems that if game-losing economic damage from Hellion harassment can be deflected by smart building placement, then the rewards seem to be worth the effort.
This is my shoddy attempt at a wall-in on the top position of LT. I'm not an expert at placing these buildings by any means, and any suggestions for improvement are welcome:
![[image loading]](http://i33.tinypic.com/2nr3lts.jpg)
The gap between the Roach Warren and the ramp is 2 units wide. Two Roaches there can block access to both the main and the natural--which is a vast improvement on haphazard building placements that allow 2 roaches to only cover access up the ramp.
NOTE: This is not a Terran player trying to make a "lol u zergs should play better like this" thread. Wall-ins were just one of my favorite things to see in zerg play in BW, and I'm wondering if the concept could translate over into SC2.
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The problem is the maps, and creeping. On maps like Desert Oasis, Steppes of War, it's pretty impossible to creep up to the ramp, let alone make an expansion and then wall, especially for it to be on time before an attack comes in. I like the idea a lot however.
SC1 required more hatcheries, which formed a nice wall, as well a Creep Colonies, which expanded creep AND acted as a wall. That wall was more sizable than a Spine Crawler.
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in ZvZ if i go for fast mutas i will get 2 queens and wall of my choke and 2-3 spine crawlers on high ground it makes it Zergling free and queens can take quite a pounding from Banelings.
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You make a good point. Walling in for Zerg in SC1 was quite useful. I feel like however in SC2, it's not as useful because once you get 2 queens, then you'll be able to produce units quickly enough to defend minor harrassment.
However, walling off like this might be disadvantageous. In your particular example, you had to expand, wait for the creep to expand that far (with/without creep tumors idk), then place the roach warren, evolution chamber, and the spine crawler. You also have a few drones and a queen there at your expo. It feels a bit "late" to me (relative gut timings xD).
I don't know. I think I'm not comfortable with it yet because I haven't SEEN it used often but I definitely think it has potential if you can do it early enough. However, it does make those 2 buildings vulnerable to early tank pushes (i think so atleast).
That's just my opinion but very interesting idea. I applaud you for it. :D
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Also vs P, FF makes walls to your disadvantage sometimes.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 08 2010 14:26 vica wrote:
The problem is the maps, and creeping. On maps like Desert Oasis, Steppes of War, it's pretty impossible to creep up to the ramp, let alone make an expansion and then wall, especially for it to be on time before an attack comes in. I like the idea a lot however.
SC1 required more hatcheries, which formed a nice wall, as well a Creep Colonies, which expanded creep AND acted as a wall. That wall was more sizable than a Spine Crawler.
Agreed on both counts. I'm not sure about the creeping need, as the wall-in above was done entirely with the hatchery's own creep--I didn't need any tumors to cover both sides. But some of the maps in the pool seem to make this exceptionally hard--Desert Oasis, Scrap Station, Xel'naga Caverns, Delta Quadrant, and Kulas Ravine all seem to have exceptionally poor setups for walling in. Hopefully, though, this will be useful on the more hospitable maps, and perhaps more so when we actually get these awful maps replaced.
On August 08 2010 14:30 Attris wrote:
Also vs P, FF makes walls to your disadvantage sometimes.
Wall-ins vs. P in SC1 were drastically different from anti-vulture wall-ins vT. They made covering expansions a hell of a lot easier, but given how many hatcheries usually went into them, I think translating them to SC2 is a lost cause.
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I would love to be able to walloff but there are very few maps that permit it.
You can walloff on LT, steps sort of, and blistering sort of.
You can't on metal, desert oasis, kulas, xelnaga, delta quadrant, and scrap.
If they start incorporating more closed off naturals to incorporate this I would be very happy.
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yeah, a big problem right now is the maps. A big factor in the development of BW was the easier to defend natural, and right now SC2 maps are much more open. This makes it impossible to cover your whole expansion with a wall and you need to build units, not static defense, to defend.
Still, I don't think the concept is dead, especially not versus protoss going heavy zealot.
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It really all depends on the map, I think it is a bit more plausible on a FE choke.
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The issue with helions for me is either the fast helion rush or helion harass at endgame. The rush is taken care of plenty well by a queen blocking the ramp and 1-2 spinecrawlers to protect the expo. Lategame its usually all your other expos that get hit.
If you wallin with tech buildings there that much easier to get harassed (and scouted). Zergs dont generally like chokes and if you dont have the army to flank before they reach your base you can easily get reverse choked at your natural.
The only regular use i've found for zergs so far is in zvz to funnel or block ling harasses.
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I've found soft walls very useful like putting my spawning pool/evo chambers right outside of mineral line and filling gap with roaches/queens. Good vs bling and hellions harass.
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United States47024 Posts
Update: Just tested wall-ins on Metalopolis. The biggest problem is runbys behind the the gas to the natural min line--the space between the gas and the wall is 1 unit too small to fit a tech building, so you have to put a crawler there--which does virtually nothing in most cases.
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On August 08 2010 14:38 Amandil wrote:
The issue with helions for me is either the fast helion rush or helion harass at endgame. The rush is taken care of plenty well by a queen blocking the ramp and 1-2 spinecrawlers to protect the expo. Lategame its usually all your other expos that get hit.
If you wallin with tech buildings there that much easier to get harassed (and scouted). Zergs dont generally like chokes and if you dont have the army to flank before they reach your base you can easily get reverse choked at your natural.
The only regular use i've found for zergs so far is in zvz to funnel or block ling harasses.
End game you have 100/100 burrow from a production building that hardly gets used IE an expo. As soon as he has hits your expo hit spacebar ctrl click burrow he'll lose his hellions for nothing or waste a scan and still lose his hellions.
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Ok yango I have always read your boxes because they are interesting/enlightening and this... delivers 
Imma try this
edit: your too fast for me fucker
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End game vs helions since I usually have ventral sacs upgraded, keep 2-3 ovies above your drones and air lift them to safety until help arrives!
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EPT
