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[G] Zerg Tears - Page 19

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Diddemz
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia3 Posts
August 07 2010 23:28 GMT
#361
An Idralisk. Oh that made my day lol.
Kexx
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany240 Posts
August 07 2010 23:33 GMT
#362
am I the only one that thinks that 4 offensive queens for idra would have ended the match so much earlier?
He did have like 4 queens at full energy, he could have build 4 new for lava spawn and take the 4 full ones at an attack behind the ultras.
A single queen can heal an ultralisk for 600 hp, that's 100 more than it has.
So a single queen at full energy kinda gives you another Ultralisk for 2 supply and 150 minerals.
Even better, the first two or so ultralisk that storm into the Terran army usually die without hitting anything and are just sacrificing themselves, but even then the Ultralisks that comes after that still have to walk over the corpses till they can finally attack.
If you chain heal the first ultralisks that rush into they won't die and it actually makes your ultras hit so much earlier and longer, and since you can now attack with the zerlings head first, your zerglings can flank after the first siege tank barrage.

Ofcourse this is only possible if you actively spread creep until the very end, something which idra definitely did not do. But I think there's a lot of potential in Queens and healing Ultras.

Maybe there could be a T3 tech that allows queen to move at regular speed at non creep.

any thoughts on this?
chooooch
brain_
Profile Joined June 2010
United States812 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-07 23:45:41
August 07 2010 23:39 GMT
#363
On August 08 2010 06:45 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2010 06:38 Grond wrote:
Very nice analysis. The build times and the branching are certainly a core part of the problem. Do you feel this is the only issue are are there any Terran units that are just outright OP.


The only Terran unit I have a problem with is the Thor, and only then because of the reasons I stated before. At 60s the Thor is extremely fast to come out for a 6 pop unit and it's incredibly versatile and effective vs ground units. Forcing your Terran opponent to make Thors by making mutalisks really doesn't get you anywhere. It's not like when you force a bio-Terran to make marines by making Mutalisks then crush the marines with banelings. With Thors the only unit that 'crushes' them are ultralisks and infestors with NP, two very gas heavy options to transition to from mutalisks. I don't think I'd mind the versatility if they were a little more difficult to mass and had a training time of 65 or 70 seconds (colossi and ultralisk training time respectively).

Thor is also a nice unit to adjust because it doesn't have much bearing on TvT or TvP from my understanding.

Still I'd say the majority of the issue is on the Zerg side. Terran are really fun and interesting right now, I'd hate to have that taken away from them.



I agree. My problems with the matchup:

1) Thors invalidate Mutas too fast
2) Roaches blow
3) Super fast Hellion and Reaper harass are difficult to counter and have no downside for the Terran (see #2)
4) Maps with ledges and hard-to-defend naturals are anti-Zerg.
archon256
Profile Joined August 2010
United States363 Posts
August 08 2010 01:35 GMT
#364
I think there are a lot of things which make this match-up 'un-fun' for Zerg at all levels, and make it really hard for lower-level Zergs (myself included). But since there's no adequate metric for how fun a game is, Blizzard's just going by win rate instead, and that's apparently balanced.

That said, there really is no point raging. You just end up amusing people like the OP. At this point I'm just going to cross my fingers and wait.
"The troupe is ready, the stage is set. I come to dance, the dance of death"
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-08 01:45:10
August 08 2010 01:44 GMT
#365
i cant belive it. they did it! they take a thread over how to collect there Tears and whine in it.

OP your a master of the Zerg Tear collection. We all have much to learn from you.
I only own 4 L zerg tears and i must say i collect the last 7 post of this thread.
i hope you dont mind but im sure you have over 1k L yet.
Save gaming: kill esport
Sixes
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada1123 Posts
August 08 2010 04:07 GMT
#366
On August 08 2010 10:44 skeldark wrote:
i cant belive it. they did it! they take a thread over how to collect there Tears and whine in it.

OP your a master of the Zerg Tear collection. We all have much to learn from you.
I only own 4 L zerg tears and i must say i collect the last 7 post of this thread.
i hope you dont mind but im sure you have over 1k L yet.


Actually I don't think those posts are particularly whiny but rather a more constructive and analytical approach when faced with a rather clear problem. Call it what you will but when a large majority of Zerg players are seeing an issue (and actually I have met a fair few Terran players who saw it too, to the point of apologizing because they felt outplayed and still just a-moved to a win) it is quite possible there is a real problem.

I think this justifies at least an analysis of the matchup and, where issues are found, a discussion of the possible solutions. There is a large gap between that and random Idra style rage.
FallinDevast
Profile Joined June 2010
4 Posts
August 08 2010 04:20 GMT
#367
Zerg is not underpowered, they suffer from flawed design. For one, creep should NOT be a requirement but a bonus (see Hydra speed, queen off-creep handicap)
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-08 04:28:12
August 08 2010 04:26 GMT
#368
On August 08 2010 13:20 FallinDevast wrote:
Zerg is not underpowered, they suffer from flawed design. For one, creep should NOT be a requirement but a bonus (see Hydra speed, queen off-creep handicap)


Creep mechanics are one of my favorite parts of Zerg and probably one of the parts I like the design of the most =/.

Hydras still work off creep vs a lot of stuff, it's just riskier. Queens are like that because they are OP if they can move off creep.

So long as tumors = 15 seconds the mechanic works fine.


On August 08 2010 13:07 Sixes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2010 10:44 skeldark wrote:
i cant belive it. they did it! they take a thread over how to collect there Tears and whine in it.

OP your a master of the Zerg Tear collection. We all have much to learn from you.
I only own 4 L zerg tears and i must say i collect the last 7 post of this thread.
i hope you dont mind but im sure you have over 1k L yet.


Actually I don't think those posts are particularly whiny but rather a more constructive and analytical approach when faced with a rather clear problem. Call it what you will but when a large majority of Zerg players are seeing an issue (and actually I have met a fair few Terran players who saw it too, to the point of apologizing because they felt outplayed and still just a-moved to a win) it is quite possible there is a real problem.

I think this justifies at least an analysis of the matchup and, where issues are found, a discussion of the possible solutions. There is a large gap between that and random Idra style rage.



Well said, if nothing else hopefully such discussion can identify problem areas where zerg players can focus their efforts to get better.
Logo
HalfnHalf
Profile Joined May 2010
United States90 Posts
August 08 2010 04:30 GMT
#369
I can't stop laughing
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-08 04:38:14
August 08 2010 04:35 GMT
#370
On August 08 2010 07:33 Sixes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2010 07:13 TheYango wrote:
The biggest problem is that it would have drastic effects on TvT--specifically, it would pretty much kill Marauder/Thor based builds because Vikings would be able to destroy Thors well before they could threaten Tanks in a normal Tank/Viking composition, especially given the relatively poor anti-armor damage that Thors have vs. air.


I was not aware of thors used in TvT (thought that was just boring tank viking ... with occasionally a marauder rush). What are the thors actually used for that marauders can't do better in TvT?

Thor/Marauder is basically the only thing keeping TvT from being boring tank viking lol. And as was said before, Thors do a good job of absorbing tank fire (mitigating splash as well), and deterring Viking spotting (since their attack range is *exactly* equal to Viking sight range).
Moderator
Synwave
Profile Joined July 2009
United States2803 Posts
August 08 2010 04:36 GMT
#371
On August 08 2010 13:35 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2010 07:33 Sixes wrote:
On August 08 2010 07:13 TheYango wrote:
The biggest problem is that it would have drastic effects on TvT--specifically, it would pretty much kill Marauder/Thor based builds because Vikings would be able to destroy Thors well before they could threaten Tanks in a normal Tank/Viking composition, especially given the relatively poor anti-armor damage that Thors have vs. air.


I was not aware of thors used in TvT (thought that was just boring tank viking ... with occasionally a marauder rush). What are the thors actually used for that marauders can't do better in TvT?

Thor/Marauder is basically the only thing keeping TvT from being boring tank viking lol.


Bikes + tanks is really the only thing keeping TvT from being boring.
♞Nerdrage is the cause of global warming♞
Jujimbo
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium3 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-08 05:40:45
August 08 2010 05:35 GMT
#372
Knowing Blizzard these Zerg first are going to get nerfed some more before they'll balance this after one and half year of waiting for the first significant patch. Serves 'em right for their whining. Hehehe. Nerf 'em some more I tell you!
.ImpacT.
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States390 Posts
August 08 2010 05:44 GMT
#373
On August 08 2010 14:35 Jujimbo wrote:
Knowing Blizzard these Zerg first are going to get nerfed some more before they'll balance this after one and half year of waiting for the first significant patch. Serves 'em right for their whining. Hehehe. Nerf 'em some more I tell you!


Immaturity at its finest.

There's nothing wrong with Zerg. I'm rank 4 diamond (610 pts.) as zerg, and thanks to the win % calculator (search the forums, you'll find it.) I know I'm 64% against terran. I'll agree that it's HARDER to win against mech, but the new units from the expansions will hopefully do something to fix that.

Zerg who cry and whine don't understand the concept of Infestors. Get like 10 of them. Send in 3-4 ultras to soak some tank fire, send in the roach hydra crackling ball, and MC all his thors at once. Oh shit, suddenly his own "OMG IMBA UNITS" are raping his tanks....
gdroxor
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States639 Posts
August 08 2010 05:57 GMT
#374
I enjoyed the phenomenon of "cluster weeping".
While Protoss doesn't make Zerg cry nearly as much, I do relish the occasional tear or two.
tfmdjeff
Profile Joined June 2010
United States170 Posts
August 08 2010 06:00 GMT
#375
This thread is hilarious. I commend you, OP. You're a highly skilled terran player with wit literally exploding out of your ass. You put that Zerg player in his place, waiting for him to get too eager and attack you, then punishing his terrible lack of patience by a-moving his base. Just goes to show, number of bases, number of workers, they're all a bunch of gimmicks. Starcraft 2 isn't a "build a good economy" game, it's a real time strategy game. Hence the word strategy, and you're the one with the better strategy: picking the race that has siege tanks.
NicolBolas
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1388 Posts
August 08 2010 06:16 GMT
#376
On August 08 2010 05:28 Logo wrote:
People talk about Terran like 200/200 is the problem, when really it's not.
+ Show Spoiler +

The problem is that Zerg has to play the matchup reactionary. Ok, that's part of the flavor of the race so lets go with that. By definition this means Terran gets to be aggressive.

We all know Terrans get to be aggressive, they can hellion harass, bio push, mech push, medivac drop, thor drop, air harass, etc. Obviously not all at once or anything, but they have their options.

So it'd stand to reason that since Terrans get to be aggressive and Zerg has to play reactionary the Zerg are the better race at being reactionary?

Well no, that's actually not the case and the more I play the more I realize this is the imbalance (well this and cliff issues) or at least where the perception comes from.

Lets look at some examples of not all-in strategies that the Terran can react to very late and still be safe vs.

First we can briefly mention baneling busts, as people know Terrans can stop this quite easily and it's clear they do so on reaction or with cost-free pre-planning (basically just how they lay their buildings out will solve this form of pressure)

Tier 1- Roach pressure.
Roaches seem like a great way to keep a terran from teching. They can actually damage a wall, they don't melt to hellions, and they're tier 1. But lets look at the timings.
55s for roach warren + 27s to make roaches + ~50s to travel rush distances (this is a low estimate and I based it off near kulas ravine distances which are some of the shortest rush distances in the game, I use a low number because it best favors the zerg side of things). So that's 132s from when you start the roach warren to win your at the Terran's door with roaches. As a 1-base, or in general early roach opening this is going to come out fairly early on in the game so you can expect 4-6 roaches in your first push.

Meanwhile lets look at how long it takes the Terran to prepare a defense for this.
Tech lab - 25s
Marauder - 30s (bunker can be built simultaneously and bunker + marauder + possible some repair action will hold the wall vs roaches)

That's right 55s to have an adequate defense vs 4-6 roaches. That means as long the Terran scouts the roaches by the time they're DONE building he'll have adequate defense up in time to hold that pressure.

Lets compare that to something like defending Hellion Harass, even if you scout the hellions as they leave your base the only defense that may be able to get up in time is blocking your ramp with your queen or roaches. Possibly, depending on map distance you may be able to have a batch of roaches or lings spawn the moment the hellions get there if you queue them the moment the hellions leave base (hellions are 2x as fast as roaches, if it takes roaches 50s to travel to the enemy ramp it takes hellions 25s). Spine crawlers take 50s so they're too slow to make on reaction. Also note that defending with zerglings on reaction would require you to have the larvae available (need at least 2 per hellion) and hellions can micro around roaches. So pretty much you either need the ramp blocked, spine crawlers, or both (if on 2 bases).

Next take a look at mutalisks. To make mutalisks requires 133s for the first batch from the moment you place the spire + travel time (dunno a good number to use for air distance to estimate with).

Now lets look at the possible Terran responses...

Engineering bay + missle turret(s) = 85s
Armory + Thor = 125s
133s = 5 marines
Also note these sets of responses are not mutually exclusive and can all be done in parallel (resources permitting).

This means the Terran has 48s + Air distance to start the engineering bay or 8 seconds + air distance to start the armory (provided they don't already have the buildings for upgrades). That's a significant amount of game time to have to prepare a defense on reaction.

While you can't take stuff like this out of context, I think it's a big part of the perceived imbalanced (regardless of if it exists or not). What makes this even worse is how vague Terrans can be.

Take for example some situations I've seen by Terran players...

1. Barracks -> reactor + factory. You scout that, so what is the enemy going? Most likely hellions.
2. Then they add a Star port and tech lab to the barracks. What is the Terran going now? You'd probably guess medivacs and a bio push if you don't get a good scout of their base, if you see there's only one 1 barracks it becomes a little easier but there is still a lot of options. Are they going to put the factory on the tech lab and make tanks? Are they going to make vikings from the star port? Are they going to make banshees from the starport by putting it on the tech lab? Are they going to build up a marauder hellion push with a viking in there for harass? Are they going for a hellion medivac drop? Are they going for a Thor medivac drop? Until you can actually see the buildings in a settled position training units you don't know what's coming.

Even worse is you don't know what's coming after the first wave. A great example of this is banshees where a single banshee means you only want to defend with queens or your're putting yourself behind. Even 2 banshees warrants only a queen defense (maybe some infestors as well). However if the person decides to pump 5 banshees before taking the starport off the tech lab then you need a dedicated system of air defense and a completely different response that CANNOT be done on reaction.

The last part of this triforce of Zerg woe is overdefense. On the Terran side a Terran player might build 2-3 thors and 3-4 missile turrets to what ends up only being 4-5 mutas. Well the terran has wasted the money on turrets, and has Thors which are great units regardless of what they face (excluding broodlords). Meanwhile they can use their wall and siege tanks to wait until that lapse in investment becomes less significant. As players mine and spend more and more spending several hundred resources on turrets becomes less of an issue. On the zerg side this doesn't happen though. The defenses they need to prepare for something like vikings or banshees (hydras, extra queens, and/or spore crawlers) don't necessarily carry the same utility. Hydras are poor in ZvT because they melt to hellions and tanks for example. The 2nd part of the problem is Zerg can't be defensive until the resources don't matter as much. Without a defensive gameplan the Zerg is relying on all of the resources they can scrap together to make sure they don't die. While in some situations the game will progress on to when the resources don't matter it's never the less always a tough choice for zerg. If they over commit in the wrong type of defense they run a much higher risk of dieing than the Terran does and can't hope that their defensive setup (of which they have none because it's zerg) will hold out.

So put together the above situation and consider the needs of scouting and everything else. You have to scout the factory+reactor going down, the switch of the factory to the reactor, the tech lab going down, the starport going down, the starport moving to the tech lab/reactor or staying put, the first wave of units to come out of the reactor or base starport (vikings or medivac), whether or not the starport switches at that point, whether or not the factory is staying on the tech lab, reactor, or nothing. All that just to determine what general unit composition the Terran is going + you still need to know things like expansions and any other buildings in his base you might not see yet. That's an insane amount of branching points for the Terran and we're only talking about 1 build/situation and one 2 minute span of the game.

Now I'm not posting this as proof of an imbalance, other parts of the matchup may make the win %s stay even, but I feel like so many Zerg and other players misunderstand why and how the matchup is imbalanced. As far as I can tell this is what really makes the situation tough and feel wrong to so many zerg players. So hopefully it at least gets the point across of how overwhelming and futile a lot of Zerg play feels when pitted up against Terran. Not only do the Terrans get to react incredibly well to the Zerg, but they get this great aggressive game because they can hide their intentioned form of aggression or harassment for so very long, even if the zerg is scouting an incredible amount.



This is an absolutely terrific analysis of the issue at hand. The "tl;dr" version would be essentially that Zerg players are being asked to do something that they are not given the tools to do.

It feels like, for everything the Zerg player wants to do, the Terrans have an effective counter tactic that they can get cheaper, quicker, and is more flexible.

The time problem is probably the big one: Terran stuff just seems to build really, really fast. Double-pumping, Turret construction speed, etc, the Terrans always seem to be able to react to a Zerg player faster than the Zerg can react back.

There's nothing wrong with Zerg. I'm rank 4 diamond (610 pts.) as zerg, and thanks to the win % calculator (search the forums, you'll find it.) I know I'm 64% against terran. I'll agree that it's HARDER to win against mech, but the new units from the expansions will hopefully do something to fix that.


So there's "nothing wrong with Zerg", but you're expecting expansions and patches to fix something. If something needs fixing, I think that's a good case for something being wrong. If it's harder to win ZvT than TvZ, then something is wrong.

Your statement is self-contradictory.
So you know, cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come up and talk to you, it's great. But if you try to talk to them, it doesn't always go so well. - Shigeru Miyamoto
Camlito
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Australia4040 Posts
August 08 2010 06:25 GMT
#377
Just when i thought imbalance whining in SC1 was bad, and i see threads like these and the people in it... luckily i didn't buy SC2.
sAviOr...
Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
August 08 2010 07:33 GMT
#378
Great read on the previous page about scouting and I couldn't agree more.
One small change I'm sure would help would reduce tank splash radius ever so slightly. Thors also don't need to be hit by air. They're rare enough in tvt as it is. Thors also such vs air. Against everything but clumped mutas really.
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
Kiante
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7069 Posts
August 08 2010 07:39 GMT
#379
I found this thread very informative and helpful.
Mostly the section 2B, as before i've had experience identifying crying zergs, but always had trouble with proper extraction and storage. You've helped me solve these problems and i look forwards to comparing our collections later down the track!
Writer
Vei
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2845 Posts
August 08 2010 07:55 GMT
#380
as a raging zerg i was not amused by this post in the slightest ~
www.justin.tv/veisc2 ~ 720p + commentary
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