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On July 22 2010 12:04 Half wrote:
Anyway, GW has a lot more "mechanical" skill, and even more strategic skill. Reaction mattered due to interrupts, ranger interrupts often requiring you to interrupt before the spell was even cast.
Thats not reaction, thats prediction, which turns back into a strategy skill, and was present in WoW (and, indeed, became more important in WotLK because of the ridiculous damage inflation).
The lack of "hard" CC increases skill, as now locking down a class requires a lot more teamwork, coordination, and timing.
This, I believe, is completely wrong, but its an opinion I've run into a lot. Fairly certain we're not going to argue to an agreement on this point, so I'll just leave it.
Spikes in high level GvG required a combination of constant pressure and control in order to successfully pull off.
The same could easily have been accomplished with WoW's spell design through manipulation of cooldowns, diminishing returns, cast times, and damage.
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The same could easily have been accomplished with WoW's spell design through manipulation of cooldowns, diminishing returns, cast times, and damage.
I agree with this. But that was my entire point, unless you heavily redesigned the way many spells worked in WoW, it wouldn't really have been that good of an Esport. Perhaps it was closer to this direction in S2 (not from experience, but I'll take your word for it), but it still would have been pretty far off. It would have required a major overhaul to accomplish.
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LOL we used to play when 19s existed on detheroc. I was Foofy aka the worst rogue in OE. Nice to see that you're playing a real game now lol.
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On July 22 2010 12:09 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
The same could easily have been accomplished with WoW's spell design through manipulation of cooldowns, diminishing returns, cast times, and damage.
I agree with this. But that was my entire point, unless you heavily redesigned the way many spells worked in WoW, it wouldn't really have been that good of an Esport. Perhaps it was closer to this direction in S2 (not from experience, but I'll take your word for it), but it still would have been pretty far off.
I guess I don't see modification of basic spell stats as "heavy redesign" - I thought you meant stuff like changing what class roles were, what the spells did in the most simple of terms, etc.
Basically, WoW needed significant rebalancing for PvP from the very beginning, but the potential was always there. Blizzard just chose not to chase it, instead pursuing PvE balance for the larger clientbase (a shortsighted move, in my opinion).
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WoW PvP reminds me of DOTA... its sooo easy so you have all these over-night elitists who think they're so awesome at it. Glad to see people are switching over to real competitive games.
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On July 22 2010 12:12 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 12:09 Half wrote:
The same could easily have been accomplished with WoW's spell design through manipulation of cooldowns, diminishing returns, cast times, and damage.
I agree with this. But that was my entire point, unless you heavily redesigned the way many spells worked in WoW, it wouldn't really have been that good of an Esport. Perhaps it was closer to this direction in S2 (not from experience, but I'll take your word for it), but it still would have been pretty far off. I guess I don't see modification of basic spell stats as "heavy redesign" - I thought you meant stuff like changing what class roles were, what the spells did in the most simple of terms, etc. Basically, WoW needed significant rebalancing for PvP from the very beginning, but the potential was always there. Blizzard just chose not to chase it, instead pursuing PvE balance for the larger clientbase (a shortsighted move, in my opinion).
Well, "heavy redesign" as in drastic rebalanced of many statistic values and the outright removal of some spells and introduction of new ones, and a moderate change of pace in gameplay.
Personally, I thought the dynamic between constant pressure (consistently good position and timing) and spiking (well timed well coordinated executions) in GvG were fun to watch to anyone with a moderate understanding of the game, and were very fun (and skillful) to play as well, and the same dynamic should have existed in WoW. However, in every season gameplay leaned too heavily in one of the two ends of that spectrum.
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On July 22 2010 12:17 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 12:12 kzn wrote:On July 22 2010 12:09 Half wrote:
The same could easily have been accomplished with WoW's spell design through manipulation of cooldowns, diminishing returns, cast times, and damage.
I agree with this. But that was my entire point, unless you heavily redesigned the way many spells worked in WoW, it wouldn't really have been that good of an Esport. Perhaps it was closer to this direction in S2 (not from experience, but I'll take your word for it), but it still would have been pretty far off. I guess I don't see modification of basic spell stats as "heavy redesign" - I thought you meant stuff like changing what class roles were, what the spells did in the most simple of terms, etc. Basically, WoW needed significant rebalancing for PvP from the very beginning, but the potential was always there. Blizzard just chose not to chase it, instead pursuing PvE balance for the larger clientbase (a shortsighted move, in my opinion). Well, "heavy redesign" as in drastic rebalanced of many statistic values and the outright removal of some spells and introduction of new ones, and a moderate change of pace in gameplay. Personally, I thought the dynamic between constant pressure (consistently good position and timing) and spiking (well timed well coordinated executions) in GvG were fun to watch to anyone with a moderate understanding of the game, and were very fun (and skillful) to play as well, and the same dynamic should have existed in WoW. However, in every season game play either leaned too heavily in one of the two ends of that spectrum.
I'm biased against spike gameplay because in S1/S2 I played Hunter/Mage 5s, which (at least the way we played it) revolved around massive abuse of CC and mana draining to win - and it was incredibly frustrating to play essentially perfectly for 10 minutes and lose because of a windfury proc, or the like.
The way I see spike gameplay, as a result of that, is "you only have to get lucky once, they have to get lucky every single time".
I flat out refuse to play games without hard CC anymore.
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On July 22 2010 12:20 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 12:17 Half wrote:On July 22 2010 12:12 kzn wrote:On July 22 2010 12:09 Half wrote:
The same could easily have been accomplished with WoW's spell design through manipulation of cooldowns, diminishing returns, cast times, and damage.
I agree with this. But that was my entire point, unless you heavily redesigned the way many spells worked in WoW, it wouldn't really have been that good of an Esport. Perhaps it was closer to this direction in S2 (not from experience, but I'll take your word for it), but it still would have been pretty far off. I guess I don't see modification of basic spell stats as "heavy redesign" - I thought you meant stuff like changing what class roles were, what the spells did in the most simple of terms, etc. Basically, WoW needed significant rebalancing for PvP from the very beginning, but the potential was always there. Blizzard just chose not to chase it, instead pursuing PvE balance for the larger clientbase (a shortsighted move, in my opinion). Well, "heavy redesign" as in drastic rebalanced of many statistic values and the outright removal of some spells and introduction of new ones, and a moderate change of pace in gameplay. Personally, I thought the dynamic between constant pressure (consistently good position and timing) and spiking (well timed well coordinated executions) in GvG were fun to watch to anyone with a moderate understanding of the game, and were very fun (and skillful) to play as well, and the same dynamic should have existed in WoW. However, in every season game play either leaned too heavily in one of the two ends of that spectrum. I'm biased against spike gameplay because in S1/S2 I played Hunter/Mage 5s, which (at least the way we played it) revolved around massive abuse of CC and mana draining to win - and it was incredibly frustrating to play essentially perfectly for 10 minutes and lose because of a windfury proc, or the like. The way I see spike gameplay, as a result of that, is "you only have to get lucky once, they have to get lucky every single time". I flat out refuse to play games without hard CC anymore.
Spike gameplay did have that tendency in WoW, but I think that just highlights a lot of the problems with it (like a windfury relying on procs...) Playing Guild Wars, it would pretty rare that I'd lose the game because they'd get a "lucky" spike. The game had a slower pace as a result, but it meant whenever someone dropped, someone did something wrong, either a controller (mez or ranger) failed to properly interrupt, that melee failed to train properly and intelligently, or that monks failed to react quick enough, or we as a team were just being out pressured due to a combination of all three. Usually spiking was never a win because of itself, but a way to take advantage of a weakness you saw in your opponents as soon as it manifested.
And yeah, I get where your coming from, but from the opposite end of the spectrum. S5 was fun and semi-skillful even playing double dps, and destro locks kind of sucked but S6 after the conflag buff was so fucking hilarious. The reliance on crits was hilarious, I remember literally oneshotting heavily geared paladins because my conflag critted for 10k followed by an eversicate and a chaos bolt....I can thank pve weapons for that and my guild for letting me leach off them even though I never came to progression nights lol. I think I shot up 300 rating in a couple weeks after the patch, but I quit before the season ended :p.
I mean, thats really starkly contrasts with how Spiking worked in GvG...outside of gimmicks you never won /just/ because you spiked, but because your opposing team failed to keep up in other ways, and spiking is just a way of taking advantage of that. In WoW, spiking is deadling in itself.
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On July 22 2010 12:27 Half wrote:
And yeah, I get where your coming from, but from the opposite end of the spectrum. S5 was fun and semi-skillful even playing double dps, and destro locks kind of sucked but S6 after the conflag buff was so fucking hilarious. The reliance on crits was hilarious, I remember literally oneshotting heavily geared paladins because my conflag critted for 10k followed by an eversicate and a chaos bolt....I can thank pve weapons for that and my guild for letting me leach off them even though I never came to progression nights lol.
Dude to get glad in S6 I played Wizard Cleave with fnatic's shaman and a baller warlock and it was ridiculous.
We didn't even have to CC or interrupt to get kills if we swapped properly, I'd just call for a druid swap and the druid would go 100-0 in like 3 seconds.
Even at the end of S1 4dps teams were starting to demonstrate the stupid nature of pressure comps in WoW, which is why I view S1/S2 as the glory days of arena. After that it just got stupid, especially in 5s.
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Wow 6 years? I couldn't last a single month.
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On July 22 2010 12:30 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 12:27 Half wrote:
And yeah, I get where your coming from, but from the opposite end of the spectrum. S5 was fun and semi-skillful even playing double dps, and destro locks kind of sucked but S6 after the conflag buff was so fucking hilarious. The reliance on crits was hilarious, I remember literally oneshotting heavily geared paladins because my conflag critted for 10k followed by an eversicate and a chaos bolt....I can thank pve weapons for that and my guild for letting me leach off them even though I never came to progression nights lol.
Dude to get glad in S6 I played Wizard Cleave with fnatic's shaman and a baller warlock and it was ridiculous. We didn't even have to CC or interrupt to get kills if we swapped properly, I'd just call for a druid swap and the druid would go 100-0 in like 3 seconds. Even at the end of S1 4dps teams were starting to demonstrate the stupid nature of pressure comps in WoW, which is why I view S1/S2 as the glory days of arena. After that it just got stupid, especially in 5s.
Never really played 5s, but yeah, s6 destro warlock was fucking ridiculous. Often we'd just run around trying to set up and then just instantly engage and one of them would die lol, in 2s or 3s :/. It was even funnier in BGS with full PvE gear cuz I'd literally oneshot lower geared people with Conflag :D.
The only time I did 5s I fought 4 prot paladins lols. Ye, 4, idk where the 5th one went :x.
You still play WoW? Is arena still the clusterfuck it was in s6 lols?
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Nice, welcome to the SC community!
I think this might have made a better blog, though.
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On July 22 2010 12:34 Half wrote:You still play WoW? Is arena still the clusterfuck it was in s6 lols?
Nah I quit to play Aion and I haven't looked back since (which still amazes me to this day, almost a year away). I'd guess its worse than it was in S6 - when I quit it was just getting worse and worse as more PvE gear made its way into arena - it wasn't even fun for me and I was one of the best geared mages on BG9 at the time. I didn't even cast CC spells anymore, which is what drew me to mage in the first place, I just hammered cooldowns and spammed frostbolt with like 800 haste.
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On July 22 2010 08:54 Bub wrote:
Smart move. Should have quit a while ago though, save yourself a lot of time and Money. Now lets see everyone else do the same.
I am too :3
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On July 22 2010 12:40 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 12:34 Half wrote:You still play WoW? Is arena still the clusterfuck it was in s6 lols? Nah I quit to play Aion and I haven't looked back since (which still amazes me to this day, almost a year away). I'd guess its worse than it was in S6 - when I quit it was just getting worse and worse as more PvE gear made its way into arena - it wasn't even fun for me and I was one of the best geared mages on BG9 at the time. I didn't even cast CC spells anymore, which is what drew me to mage in the first place, I just hammered cooldowns and spammed frostbolt with like 800 haste.
Hows Aion PvP? Or Aion in general? idk anyone who plays it.
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On July 22 2010 12:42 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 12:40 kzn wrote:On July 22 2010 12:34 Half wrote:You still play WoW? Is arena still the clusterfuck it was in s6 lols? Nah I quit to play Aion and I haven't looked back since (which still amazes me to this day, almost a year away). I'd guess its worse than it was in S6 - when I quit it was just getting worse and worse as more PvE gear made its way into arena - it wasn't even fun for me and I was one of the best geared mages on BG9 at the time. I didn't even cast CC spells anymore, which is what drew me to mage in the first place, I just hammered cooldowns and spammed frostbolt with like 800 haste. Hows Aion PvP? Or Aion in general? idk anyone who plays it.
I quit Aion after like 2 months as well. The game was just vastly too hardcore for the western market. 1-50 took 3 weeks if you played 10-12 hours a day starting from release, and got worse if you started late because of PvP - and that was the easy grind, as people who did hit 50 discovered.
The game very quickly bled population after it became apparent that the grind never ever got any better. Personally, I loved it, because I tend to put 10-12 hours a day into whatever it is I'm pursuing competitively anyway, so it didn't bug me that much, but without a population to support the mass Abyss PvP that was a major drawing point nobody else wanted to keep playing.
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You forgot:
4) WoW is a terrible game compared to SC2
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On July 22 2010 12:45 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 12:42 Half wrote:On July 22 2010 12:40 kzn wrote:On July 22 2010 12:34 Half wrote:You still play WoW? Is arena still the clusterfuck it was in s6 lols? Nah I quit to play Aion and I haven't looked back since (which still amazes me to this day, almost a year away). I'd guess its worse than it was in S6 - when I quit it was just getting worse and worse as more PvE gear made its way into arena - it wasn't even fun for me and I was one of the best geared mages on BG9 at the time. I didn't even cast CC spells anymore, which is what drew me to mage in the first place, I just hammered cooldowns and spammed frostbolt with like 800 haste. Hows Aion PvP? Or Aion in general? idk anyone who plays it. I quit Aion after like 2 months as well. The game was just vastly too hardcore for the western market. 1-50 took 3 weeks if you played 10-12 hours a day starting from release, and got worse if you started late because of PvP - and that was the easy grind, as people who did hit 50 discovered. The game very quickly bled population after it became apparent that the grind never ever got any better. Personally, I loved it, because I tend to put 10-12 hours a day into whatever it is I'm pursuing competitively anyway, so it didn't bug me that much, but without a population to support the mass Abyss PvP that was a major drawing point nobody else wanted to keep playing.
Ah :/. Well, I'm still holding out for Guild Wars 2. Best of luck, think ima go to sleep early tday, got mornin classes.
Man we really went OT didn't we lol :x.
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On July 22 2010 12:47 Half wrote:
Man we really went OT didn't we lol :x.
I''ve been rather restrained compared to how much I normally write on topics like this :d
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EPT
