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On July 22 2010 10:55 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 10:54 Half wrote:On July 22 2010 10:45 kzn wrote:On July 22 2010 10:43 Half wrote:
I disagree. WoW lacks too much mechanical skill (aiming in an FPS, micromanagement/macro management in BW). The game becomes a game of timings and tactics. You need mechanical skill because a game of tactics and timings simply is too simplistic in a real time strategy that the skill curve is destined to become flat. Irrelevant. Chess has zero mechanical skill and is a tremendous competitive game, if you like where it is on the execution/strategy continuum. Any game that has a great deal of focus on execution (what you call mechanical skill) has a correspondingly lower focus on strategy and tactics, by necessity.. Of course. But Chess is not a game played in real time. Time is still a significant factor in competitive Chess, let alone Blitz/Bullet.
Eh, got me. In many ways, some aspects of WoW are like Chess, in the sense time is a limiting factor instead of a resource in execution. But Chess is popular because its a reducible competition of intellect. You really can't tell the skill level differences between Gary Kasparov and another very accomplished and inferior chessmaster beyond "who wins" in the same it the you can tell the difference between two classes of Starcraft pros. This is because both Chess and WoW in can become reduced to a very few number of attributes. Chess can remain popular and respected because ones proficiency at its set skillset reflects core intellectual values that are valued in society. WoW doesn't do this, and WoW won't do this. In terms of "skill curve", SC2 has an infinitely sharper skill curve then both chess and WoW.
Is it balanced? no
Is it truly competitive like SC:BW is? no
Its as competitive as any mmo can possibly be though, and its ALOT of fun and highly addictive.
This is more or less my evaulation of WoW arena. Though except the last part, my heart belongs to Guild Wars as far as competitive MMO goes, though you could argue that isn't an MMO. WoW holds a respectable second place though.
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On July 22 2010 10:27 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 10:18 virgozero wrote:
lol so much wrong.
1.) wow takes 0 skill. If you include smashing F1->f12 in a sequence then I would also like to say eating ice cream takes skill too. lol he binds his spells to f1-f12 and talks about skill
Lol i forgot press 1-0 takes more skill than pressing f1-12 right?
God your soo smart do you give lessons?
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On July 22 2010 10:52 DemiSe wrote:
I decided to quit WoW, when blizzard changed the honorsystem so every incompetent and mindfucked player could obtain my Warlord's Battlegear. The gear I had attained through playing >10 hours every day during my summerholiday together with the other 9 people of our premade. The gear I had attained through determination and hard work was up for grabs for anyone who was able to press a button to join a battleground.
Anywas...
Allow me to welcome you, Mr.Two to TL!
I'am certain that you will enjoy your stay.
Grinding BG noobs doesn't take skill, at all, ever. Arena is the only thing that takes skill in the game, and even that is dependent on comp/class and not being carried.
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On July 22 2010 11:20 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 10:27 kzn wrote:On July 22 2010 10:18 virgozero wrote:
lol so much wrong.
1.) wow takes 0 skill. If you include smashing F1->f12 in a sequence then I would also like to say eating ice cream takes skill too. lol he binds his spells to f1-f12 and talks about skill Lol i forgot press 1-0 takes more skill than pressing f1-12 right? God your soo smart do you give lessons?
Reaction times. You want the fastest reaction speed in that game and having keys that are likely out of reach is stupid. I had 50 keybinds on my hunter and I never used F1-F12 (except F1 to toggle enemy nameplates). You use the closest and fastest keys and then use modifers on those keys that don't interfere with your movement keys. Also binding keys to mouse buttons.
In fact reaction speed is so important when I got snowfallkeypress mod, sounds super gay, but it makes your spells go off on key PRESS rather than key RELEASE I noticed an immense improvement in performance. From just milliseconds difference it mattered so much because pulling your fingers off takes nearly twice as long than pushing them down. Speed matters.
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On July 22 2010 10:55 tollz wrote:Welcome man, I was a huge WoW player too since you're familiar with WoW you'll understand what arena is, but that being said i was a S1-5 Glad before quitting, i still log on every couple months to talk to old buddies I've known since my medal of honor and counter strike days, but for the most part the game turned to shit. however I'm nott new to the SC scene, been watching VODs literally since i was 14 years old, so i know whats going on in games. my biggest problem was I SUCKED at SC1 terribly  . but now with SC2 coming out it has given me a chance to get on an even playing field with it being a new game.
if you didn't have the dedication and the will that it takes to be among the top on broodwar, odds are history is gonna repeat on SC2
really you just need to be extremely competitive and dedicated
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In WoW, the arena is quite competitive and challenging and with a very high skill cap.
I say this as a wow tournament player.
There is, of course, much more focus on team tactics than individual gameplay. Morale is quite important, and the potential to make mistakes is quite greater. In starcraft you can clearly say you lost because you did so and so wrong 2-3~ minutes before, etc. In highly competitive arena gameplay a similar thing can be said but to events that happened perhaps 10-15 seconds before, in most cases.
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So many unique snowflake type posts. Quite hilarious for the first few pages. Anyway seems like Blizzard did exactly what they intended to do by converting someone from WoW to remain loyal and not leave them for another companies game. Good luck with it Two.
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I would say that WoW arena takes a fair amount of skill, but it's very possible for terrible players to be able to get to the Top of the ladder. I really don't know how they do it. Interestingly, the better i got at wow, the harder it became for me to get to the top of the ladder. I have no idea why this was but it's the main reason i switched to brood war.
Also, it seems the only people who are saying WoW takes no skill in this thread are the players that sucked at the game or havn't played the arenas much. (which is the only part of the game that takes skill really)
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On July 22 2010 10:59 Joseph. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 10:52 DemiSe wrote:
I decided to quit WoW, when blizzard changed the honorsystem so every incompetent and mindfucked player could obtain my Warlord's Battlegear. The gear I had attained through playing >10 hours every day during my summerholiday together with the other 9 people of our premade. The gear I had attained through determination and hard work was up for grabs for anyone who was able to press a button to join a battleground.
Anywas...
Allow me to welcome you, Mr.Two to TL!
I'am certain that you will enjoy your stay.
Haha, respect. I think the longest I stayed up at any one point was 36 hours in a single sitting fighting for High Warlord against other people. I stopped at rank 12 (General) though because I decided I'd like to not go blind. Sometimes I wish I would have kept going to get rank 14, because High Warlord is such a unique title now, well General is too I guess. I don't think there is anything harder I ever did in a game than having to stay up 20+ hours a day PVP'ing for months knowing the only way I was going to get high ranked is if the other guy decided sleep was more important. That was when WoW was really fucking hardcore.
Yea, especially when you have around 6-7 premades running @ the same server, fighting for the top 5 standings. Now PvP(ARENA!) is just a big fat joke. I mean, find 2 poeple that play the right classes and enter arena, how hard is that. Try mobilizing 10 people that have superior teamwork and have a deep understanding of their individual classes. I laugh when people say it was "mindless" grinding, it just show how little people know about vanilla wow. People whine that it is hard to find good partners for 3v3, then they have tried out finding a good premade in vanilla wow.
EDIT: After reading some of the dumbest comments in this thread I'll leave it the way it is. I feel like if I start discussing with some of the people here that has whatsoever no knownledge of the game, esp vanillia wow it will result in a flamewar and it would be disrespectful to the OP.
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grinding high warlord was more of a joke than arenas, grinding high warlord just rewarded people being able to play the game for 14 hours a day, didn't matter how good you were. I know a lot of high warlords that couldn't break 1600 in 2v2 once TBC came out because they were so bad.
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On July 22 2010 11:18 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
Is it balanced? no
Is it truly competitive like SC:BW is? no
Its as competitive as any mmo can possibly be though, and its ALOT of fun and highly addictive.
This is more or less my evaulation of WoW arena. Though except the last part, my heart belongs to Guild Wars as far as competitive MMO goes, though you could argue that isn't an MMO. WoW holds a respectable second place though.
I don't disagree with that at all - my claim was that it had great potential, not that it realized it. WoW went completely the wrong direction starting with roughly season 2, and it just got worse from there. Had they gone a direction more focused on arena balance, it would easily have become the first true MMOPvP esport game, and it would have been vastly superior to GW.
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On July 22 2010 11:52 stroggos wrote:
grinding high warlord was more of a joke than arenas, grinding high warlord just rewarded people being able to play the game for 14 hours a day, didn't matter how good you were. I know a lot of high warlords that couldn't break 1600 in 2v2 once TBC came out because they were so bad.
to get High Warlord/Grand Marshall you had to be WINNING non-stop for those 14 hours, not just playing bgs. you had to be winning FAST, like 5-capping AB. atleast on my server it was like that, maybe you played on a really non-competitive server.
and lol @ thinking arenas take skill. sorry but nothing in WoW takes skill.
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On July 22 2010 11:53 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 11:18 Half wrote:
Is it balanced? no
Is it truly competitive like SC:BW is? no
Its as competitive as any mmo can possibly be though, and its ALOT of fun and highly addictive.
This is more or less my evaulation of WoW arena. Though except the last part, my heart belongs to Guild Wars as far as competitive MMO goes, though you could argue that isn't an MMO. WoW holds a respectable second place though. I don't disagree with that at all - my claim was that it had great potential, not that it realized it. WoW went completely the wrong direction starting with roughly season 2, and it just got worse from there. Had they gone a direction more focused on arena balance, it would easily have become the first true MMOPvP esport game, and it would have been vastly superior to GW.
And my claim is that it never had potential due to the way the game is structured. It doesn't matter how they balanced it, unless they made a drastic departure from their current and past spell designs, WoW PvP could have never become as competitive as even GW, let alone Starcraft.
and lol @ thinking arenas take skill. sorry but nothing in WoW takes skill.
Then whats stopping from from being #1 in Arenas? lol. And don't bs me about class, lock was at 1% above 2200 at the beginning of s6.
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season 2 was awesome, people didn't even know how to fakecast back then
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On July 22 2010 11:56 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 11:53 kzn wrote:On July 22 2010 11:18 Half wrote:
Is it balanced? no
Is it truly competitive like SC:BW is? no
Its as competitive as any mmo can possibly be though, and its ALOT of fun and highly addictive.
This is more or less my evaulation of WoW arena. Though except the last part, my heart belongs to Guild Wars as far as competitive MMO goes, though you could argue that isn't an MMO. WoW holds a respectable second place though. I don't disagree with that at all - my claim was that it had great potential, not that it realized it. WoW went completely the wrong direction starting with roughly season 2, and it just got worse from there. Had they gone a direction more focused on arena balance, it would easily have become the first true MMOPvP esport game, and it would have been vastly superior to GW. And my claim is that it never had potential due to the way the game is structured. It doesn't matter how they balanced it, unless they made a drastic departure from their current and past spell designs, WoW PvP could have never become as competitive as even GW, let alone Starcraft.
I don't understand why you say that though. GW has no more mechanical skill requirements than WoW did, which was your original point, and GW has watered down strategy compared to WoW due to a lack of CC spells and a focus on spike damage strats, which are relatively simple to pull off with practice.
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On July 22 2010 11:42 stroggos wrote:
Also, it seems the only people who are saying WoW takes no skill in this thread are the players that sucked at the game or havn't played the arenas much. (which is the only part of the game that takes skill really)
Oh the game requires skill, but it also requires things like gear, and proper min/maxing. If you don't have that you will mostly get hosed. And then when they nerf your class so that you're not as well off in PvP you have to roll the flavor of the month class up to 80 and start all over again. My guild hates PvP in WoW for this very reason. SC2 doesn't have these limitations. Race are (supposed to be) equal. You don't have to reroll to try a different race. Which is why we're all switching to SC2 until at least Cata comes out.
I give credit to the guys who do well in WoW PvP. It certainly takes a lot of dedication, but there's a reason it will always be a niche in ways that SC2 won't.
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Welcome to Starcraft buddy! All converts are welcome! 
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On July 22 2010 11:56 Gorguts wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 11:52 stroggos wrote:
grinding high warlord was more of a joke than arenas, grinding high warlord just rewarded people being able to play the game for 14 hours a day, didn't matter how good you were. I know a lot of high warlords that couldn't break 1600 in 2v2 once TBC came out because they were so bad. to get High Warlord/Grand Marshall you had to be WINNING non-stop for those 14 hours, not just playing bgs. you had to be winning FAST, like 5-capping AB. atleast on my server it was like that, maybe you played on a really non-competitive server. and lol @ thinking arenas take skill. sorry but nothing in WoW takes skill.
lol, it was piss easy to 5 cab ab every game if you had a premade of people that didn't completely suck. And there is much more coordination in arena than ever needed in battlegrounds. All you had to do in battlegrounds was spam a macro to tell everyone where to go, and they just had to do their job.
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On July 22 2010 11:58 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 11:56 Half wrote:On July 22 2010 11:53 kzn wrote:On July 22 2010 11:18 Half wrote:
Is it balanced? no
Is it truly competitive like SC:BW is? no
Its as competitive as any mmo can possibly be though, and its ALOT of fun and highly addictive.
This is more or less my evaulation of WoW arena. Though except the last part, my heart belongs to Guild Wars as far as competitive MMO goes, though you could argue that isn't an MMO. WoW holds a respectable second place though. I don't disagree with that at all - my claim was that it had great potential, not that it realized it. WoW went completely the wrong direction starting with roughly season 2, and it just got worse from there. Had they gone a direction more focused on arena balance, it would easily have become the first true MMOPvP esport game, and it would have been vastly superior to GW. And my claim is that it never had potential due to the way the game is structured. It doesn't matter how they balanced it, unless they made a drastic departure from their current and past spell designs, WoW PvP could have never become as competitive as even GW, let alone Starcraft. I don't understand why you say that though. GW has no more mechanical skill requirements than WoW did, which was your original point, and GW has watered down strategy compared to WoW due to a lack of CC spells and a focus on spike damage strats, which are relatively simple to pull off with practice.
My argument wasn't solely that WoW lacked mechanic skill, it was a combination of lacking mechanical skill and while having a semi-deep strategic component, was not deep enough to compensate for that.
Anyway, GW has a lot more "mechanical" skill, and even more strategic skill. Reaction mattered due to interrupts, ranger interrupts often requiring you to interrupt before the spell was even cast. Spell timing was far more critical due to the prevalence of interrupts, while the largeness of the map introduced macro-level strategies and introduced concepts like map control and ganking. The lack of "hard" CC increases skill, as now locking down a class requires a lot more teamwork, coordination, and timing. Spikes in high level GvG required a combination of constant pressure and control in order to successfully pull off.
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EPT
