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On July 22 2010 09:38 trancey wrote:
You and me are twins, Two.
Starcraft was my first love, first online game back in 1998. I've been playing WoW competitively(Glad every season and D-Glad) and deeply involved in the community but I'm refocusing all my efforts into SC2. I canceled my WoW account and I've been playing SC2 beta religiously for the last couple months.
Cheers for a better game,
Trancey of Blackrock aka Trance
TRANCE YOU ADORABLE PANDA
<3
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On July 22 2010 10:22 Half wrote:
Baffles me how some people can't break a decent rank if they try.
Mostly, those people (including me, when I was trying and failing at it) fail at the teamwork element of arenas, first having a strong team and second having a sense for group positioning and cooperative tactics against unpredictable human players.
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On July 22 2010 10:18 virgozero wrote:
lol so much wrong.
1.) wow takes 0 skill. If you include smashing F1->f12 in a sequence then I would also like to say eating ice cream takes skill too.
lol he binds his spells to f1-f12 and talks about skill
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I played WoW from release until October 2009, however about a year prior to this date I stopped playing on my own account, I would just whore off other peoples and get them PR etc. I was always in top PvE guilds and also was competitve in arena (gladiator every season, on warrior or shaman.)
What drove me away from the game finally was the constant need to farm before I felt like I could compete on even footing. I loved the TR. The TR is so much fun. You login, make character, pick gear, fight. I would still probably play WoW if I could have a year round TR with small tournaments etc.
Oh and the last downside was needing to rely on other people. In SC2 I can do everything I want in a competitive arena, all by myself or with friends if I choose.
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BUT YOU WON'T GET ANY BETTER GEAR!
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I downloaded WoW, 10 day trial version. I lasted 5 minutes and I uninstalled it...just wasn't my thing.
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On July 22 2010 09:51 PokePill wrote:Show nested quote +Lol. Maybe at 1900. Link your 3k rated team please? There's tons of teams of the same comp spread over the entire spectrum of ratings, obviously some are much better than others, like in anything else.
Also, if you can't see the incredibly high skill cap in these matches then you just don't get it: How is anybody who doesn't play World of Warcraft supposed to have any clue what's going on? When I watch WoW, it looks to me people are just left clicking each other and making full use of spell cooldowns while using teamwork. It also looks like all projectiles and attacks auto target. Not being sarcastic or anything, I don't have a clue what I'm watching in that video. What am I missing?
Sadly yes if you don't play arena at a decent level you can't really even comprehend what is going on, let alone appreciate it. (Very different from say Halo which I can watch and enjoy, though not quite fully appreciate since I don't play it)
For that matchup it's a mirror - 3 of the same class against 3 of the same class. Each class has a large variety of abilities that are offensive and defensive. Wow is very much a knowledge game like chess in many ways - you must know exactly what your opponents can and cannot do at all times. (Times 10 classes with dozens of abilities each, there's a lot to learn, let alone really understand in a real time situation) Due to the changing positions of all 6 players on the map what each person can and cannot do is different from second to second. (A mage for example cannot cast their primary damage dealing spell, frostbolt, through a wall or pillar or other large terrain)
The skill in wow arena isn't about "aim" and such things like in halo or other FPS, it's a strategy and teamwork and knowledge game, with a bit of quick reactions and good timing thrown in.
It's heavily based on teamwork. The three players must coordinate everything together in order to kill one of the opposing team's players.
Due to the vast range of abilities each class has, keeping track of 6 players each doing their own thing it is very difficult to fully comprehend what exactly is going on from a viewer's perspective.
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On July 22 2010 10:26 azotic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 10:22 Half wrote:
Baffles me how some people can't break a decent rank if they try. Mostly, those people (including me, when I was trying and failing at it) fail at the teamwork element of arenas, first having a strong team and second having a sense for group positioning and cooperative tactics against unpredictable human players.
Actually your probably right. I don't mean to demean you by saying that, I had a very strong partner I knew in real life (rogue, in 2s), and we'd already had a lot of experience playing competitive games together (mainly Dota, WC3)
But in terms of individual skill, its ridiculously flat. By the time I quit the only way we could tangibly and measurably improve was to synch our timings within the less then a second range.
How is anybody who doesn't play World of Warcraft supposed to have any clue what's going on? When I watch WoW, it looks to me people are just left clicking each other and making full use of spell cooldowns while using teamwork. It also looks like all projectiles and attacks auto target. Not being sarcastic or anything, I don't have a clue what I'm watching in that video.
What am I missing?
They are quite capable players, but admittedly they're playing with a game that has a low skillcap. At that point the only thing they have left to do is improve positioning, timing, and synchronization. Obviously, you won't notice their minute improvement in those feilds unless you have quite adept "WoW arena skills" yourself.
This is set in pretty stark contrast to SC, and its really how I got into the BW community, way late last summer. I was in China, and I was watching progaming matches, and even coming from someone with no experience, I could immediately see which player was better, and the sheer finesse and tactical thinking you needed to execute stuff was just so apparent. The skill curve hadn't flattened yet, so even among top players a "casual" like me could just immediately spot the differences.
<3 BW.
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I sympathize with the OP; I too started with SC/BW, moved onto to WC3 (dabbling with Diablo 2 for a stint), and picked up WoW totally on a whim on release day. Since WoW release until today, I played my warlock (my one and only character) through endless buffs, nerfs, BGs, and raid experiences.
Now with SC2 coming out, I admit I will probably for the first time NOT be among the first to race to maximum level to be in the first wave of boss killers. When Cataclysm hits, I will be happily playing SC2.
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On July 22 2010 09:01 kzn wrote:Say what you like about it, during the first 2 seasons WoW Arena had ridiculous potential as a competitive game.
So true the first 2 seasons were like a dream come true for me. Then it was all down hill from there.
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I'm actually considering doing the same thing. After playing WoW pretty hardcore since 2005, I've been asking myself if it's worth continuing, I'm not finding the game as entertaining as it were a couple of years ago, and I haven't got as much time.
I started playing the SC2 beta and I fell in love with the game, and I think I'm going to transistion over to it, you don't have to spend as much time on it either, which is great.
I think I'm going to play WoW until my game-time runs out but after that I'm going to atleast take a break and see if I miss it.
Sorry for the wall of text guys.
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For all those people who say High end PvP doesnt take skill really have no idea what they are talking about. I'm talking about MLG/pro end PvP, like that video he posted. I can walk you through every single scream that was made and why it was made. There is so much going on all at once that has to be managed, its pretty intense stuff.
Is it balanced? no
Is it truly competitive like SC:BW is? no
Its as competitive as any mmo can possibly be though, and its ALOT of fun and highly addictive. Unfortunately you just cant pick it up and play it. If you want to suddently start playing Terran when you've been playing protoss, imagine having to grind it up for 4mths of leveling 4-6hrs a day every day. Then once you are level capped having to grind out your gear for another 2mths, by then the season is almost over and you have to wait for the next. Only after 6mths can you start actually competing and thats still assuming you find 2 other people with specific classes that work for the comp you want to play, with the same schedule, same skill, same gear, and competitive and compatible attitudes.
Now imagine every hit in SC2/SC:BW being variable, it could hit 99% of the time, when it does it, there is a 50% chance it will be for 2.5-3x as strong the other 50% being just normal hits. There are lots of other variables but dont translate well to RTS.
I think arena would be far better off with a TR style with no PvE gear, where people can just create their characters and just put on the gear, instead of spending their lives getting it.
Oh, and dont forget about game changing trinkets, there are trinkets in the game that you MUST have to be competitive and they can take 1-7mths of 16hrs a week of PvE grinding to get them. Yea, time sink.
SC:BW was still a time sink b/c you knew you were never going to go anywhere, you could never compete and win any money in any tournament realistically. (i happen to won alot, but thats besides the point, its the masses we are talking about). Will SC2 be the same? Is it just false hope to all non-koreans out there that they can infact be considered good? What's going to happen when the world gets ahold of the game and make us all look like nubs?
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I used to play wow too. I was getting into arenas, but became more interested in sc1. Since all I did was pvp I didn't understand why I actually played WoW. So much of that game focuses not on your skill but how much time you put into. There is also a lot of luck involved.
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I feel I've wasted my time playing WoW.
I should've played Starcraft Broodwar for the time being and be part of the community way earlier. It's so warm and friendly. WoW-community is utter shit in comparison with tl.net, really. I feel bad for myself that I've spent so many years playing WoW when instead I could've followed progamers in South-Korea and play bw myself.
Yea that's how I see it.
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I played WoW for and hour or two at my cousins house...I got bored lol.
I really like your name by the way, "Two" simple and short.
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same here man, coming from a similar background as yourself, 4 years in the game and over 330 days /played but this game just offers so much more imo. not all team based, i dont have to rely on other people to have fun, i can go do it on my own and rely on myself and get as far as i can based on my own merits as a player and not be carried/held back by someone else. the scariest thing tho is making new friends. it seems like it will be very difficult to do in this game with the lack of chat channels. hopefully they get added back in quickly cause i imagine the game will be a lot more fun after meeting people to play with and talk about the game to and discuss strats and stuff. just seems like a really hard thing to get going atm.
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On July 22 2010 10:22 Half wrote:
Mostly, those people (including me, when I was trying and failing at it) fail at the teamwork element of arenas, first having a strong team and second having a sense for group positioning and cooperative tactics against unpredictable human players.
Actually your probably right. I don't mean to demean you by saying that, I had a very strong partner I knew in real life (rogue, in 2s), and we'd already had a lot of experience playing competitive games together (mainly Dota, WC3)
But in terms of individual skill, its ridiculously flat. By the time I quit the only way we could tangibly and measurably improve was to synch our timings within the less then a second range.
First, competitive wow arena is 3v3, not 2v2. Second, the season you got deadly glad in was by far the worst season of arena, and was defined by double dpsing blow up people comps in 2s.
I can easily understand why you think the skill cap is so low playing rogue warlock in season 5.
Finally, the skill cap is the sum total of the skill level of all 3 members of the team which combine together. It's not an individual game. You can put 3 top individuals together and make horrible teams because the personalities or styles of play don't mix.
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First, competitive wow arena is 3v3, not 2v2. Second, the season you got deadly glad in was by far the worst season of arena, and was defined by double dpsing blow up people comps in 2s.
I can easily understand why you think the skill cap is so low playing rogue warlock in season 5.
Finally, the skill cap is the sum total of the skill level of all 3 members of the team which combine together. It's not an individual game. You can put 3 top individuals together and make horrible teams because the personalities or styles of play don't mix.
Well, I got glad in 3s too that season running warlock/rogue/priest, just not deadly cuz our priest had a very inflexible playing schedule. But yeah, I get your point, and ofc comp play is in 3s.
Anyway, I get your point. I'm not saying that WoW arena "takes no skill". Thats a silly argument. But I think its pretty self evident that it isn't nearly as deep as any other major Esport. The only reason its taken more seriously then something like, idk, Diablo 2 PvP is cuz of the funding Blizzard dumps into it (which I srsly hope they'll be applying to SC2 soon :D), and its natural audience due to its integration into the most popular MMO ever.
I mean, we can agree that the average noob who knows the bare basics of PvP and can run around in BGs and not be a total waste of space usually isn't going to "get" any Arena tourney.
At the same time, almost anyone with a bare basics knowledge of RTS is going to get why pro sc2 players are so pro. Watching pro muta micro or a pitch perfect reaver drop is something you can universally appreciate. Even in a teamwork based game, DoTA, while the laning part would be incredibly boring, good ganks or good initiations are very self-evident to the casual obserer.
In WoW, their not incredibly self evident. Why is that? Well, my perception is that WoW lacks too much mechanical skill (aiming in an FPS, micromanagement/macro management in BW). The game becomes a game of timings and tactics. You need mechanical skill because a game of tactics and timings simply is too simplistic in a real time strategy that the skill curve is destined to become flat.
A game that tries to remedy this for instance would be a game like
http://www.bloodlinechampions.com/
As it stands, while WoW does possess a significant degree of tactical skill it is not deep enough to offset the lack of mechanical skill, and as a result, the skill curve is too flat to make for a decent "esport".
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SC2 is like weed, wow is like heroine 
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On July 22 2010 10:43 Half wrote:
I disagree. WoW lacks too much mechanical skill (aiming in an FPS, micromanagement/macro management in BW). The game becomes a game of timings and tactics. You need mechanical skill because a game of tactics and timings simply is too simplistic in a real time strategy that the skill curve is destined to become flat.
Irrelevant. Chess has zero mechanical skill and is a tremendous competitive game, if you like where it is on the execution/strategy continuum.
Any game that has a great deal of focus on execution (what you call mechanical skill) has a correspondingly lower focus on strategy and tactics, by necessity..
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EPT
