I don't care if someone cheeses in 1v1 because most of the time it's joke strategies that won't work vs a standard build. But I find in 2v2 it has gotten a bit ridiculous. 6 ling rush + reaper in the back, proxy gateway + reaper.... well, you get the picture. This cheese happens nearly every game, and I find it cheapens the playing experience. I suspect the prevalence of cheese in the 2v2 bracket is because it's a lot easier to do than it is to stop.

Really, cheese isn't a problem until it becomes easier to perform the cheese than it is to stop. Then it becomes standard. As far as 1v1 is concerned I don't think it's a problem at all.

rockon1215

United States612 Posts

July 18 2010 03:14 GMT

#122

I can't remember if it was Yoda or Ghandi who said, "Gay is the faggot who cheeses"

+ Show Spoiler +

bulge

161 Posts

July 18 2010 03:22 GMT

#123

On July 18 2010 12:11 shinosai wrote:
I don't care if someone cheeses in 1v1 because most of the time it's joke strategies that won't work vs a standard build. But I find in 2v2 it has gotten a bit ridiculous. 6 ling rush + reaper in the back, proxy gateway + reaper.... well, you get the picture. This cheese happens nearly every game, and I find it cheapens the playing experience. I suspect the prevalence of cheese in the 2v2 bracket is because it's a lot easier to do than it is to stop.

yea any team matches just geometrically scale in early rush cheese. pretty much you're guaranteed to knock out an opponent if you stack against him early.

darmousseh

United States3437 Posts

July 18 2010 04:12 GMT

#124

I think cheesing is really fun to watch in something like a 7 match series. Play normal games 1-2-3, then game 4 play some crazy cheese to try to grab a game. I think of cheesing like bunting in baseball or a trick play in american football. It definitely is important.

Arby3k

Canada90 Posts

July 18 2010 04:28 GMT

#125

When it comes down to it, Cheesing can be very viable to win a game. But when its all you got, and you can't win after your cheese fails, then I'm sorry you need to learn to play the game.

I cheese every few games just to try a different tactic out, if it doesn't work out for the win, I go back to a macro game and hope I did enough damage to get the upper hand in the mid game.

Players like Idra dislike it completely because they hate the concept of trying to adapt their strategy in the early game. And that's where it really matters to learn from the situation at hand.

Moa

United States790 Posts

July 18 2010 04:52 GMT

#126

Cheesing throws a nice and necessary spin on the game. Without cheese the game would be predictable. It is annoying to have to adapt early game but it is necessary that every part of the game is a confrontation, even if you aren't fighting an opponent you still need to confront their potential moves mentally and without cheesy builds the first few minutes of the game would no longer be engaging.

Personally I've sworn off of cheesing unless I am playing in a series, each game I win against an opponent in a single game with cheese feels empty. If I am however playing a best of 5 series or something I will probably cheese once to throw them off their game.

afirlortwo

United States161 Posts

July 18 2010 05:04 GMT

#127

cheesing has its part in the game just like every other strategy. It's far from unbeatable, in fact its typically much easier to beat than many of the standard builds. The only bad thing about it is that less skilled players use it as a crutch and it impairs their learning, but thats something they themselves have to figure out.

yrba1

United States325 Posts

July 18 2010 07:27 GMT

#128

I like my cheese with extra strong whine, cheese builds can be quite annoying at first but learning from your mistakes and keeping your cool to counter them is a solution and it's quite savory when you pull a good cork off the whine and it comes out really strong.

hoppipolla

Australia782 Posts

July 18 2010 07:31 GMT

#129

Cheese is great cos when I see my opponent do it it's basically a free win with an added bonus of smack talk.

Endymion

United States3701 Posts

July 18 2010 07:47 GMT

#130

Heh, bunker rushes and cannon rushes are the worst, but people used to do them so much that i can defend them adeptly, so i love seeing people with little skill trying to cheese me.

Edit: but it never works for me, so I never do it, and when I do I rage more than if the person had cheesed me because I get cleaned up so easily.

Terranist

United States2496 Posts

July 18 2010 07:55 GMT

#131

i'm sure it has been mentioned before but cheese has a rock, paper, scissor effect that can be autowin vs some builds and it's completely out of your hands sometimes.

Chairman Ray

United States11903 Posts

July 18 2010 07:58 GMT

#132

I support cheesing in tournament Best of X matches, but not on ladder. On ladder, if you win a game by cheesing, there's no second game, so players can get really high ELO just by doing the same cheese over and over again. That ELO will not be a reflection of their skill as a player.

Crushgroove

United States793 Posts

July 18 2010 08:07 GMT

#133

I don't think its the cheese or losing to it that is so frustrating... it just makes you sort of smile to know that out of 100 games, this player would beat you maybe twice... but because you made a small and somewhat comical error with scouting on this one ladder game, the cheesing opponent somehow thinks they played better than you.

So some people get pretty vexed after losing to cheese, because they feel like, well, my one mistake lost it, ok.

"Re?" and the cheeser invariably responds "no, you're a noob"

That stuff if pretty bothersome. Its the false sense of skill and ego that the one trick cheesing ponies develop.

nemukud

Romania42 Posts

July 18 2010 08:16 GMT

#134

I think cheesing is ok, as long as it is not abused. Although I'm getting really mad when it happens because I believe people abuse it for easy wins.

If I would knew the person doing it and knew that he doesn't do it every damn game it would be fine, but when I'm on ladder and someone cheeses me I always imagine the guy chesses every game just for easy wins. Even in that situation I don't get BM and I don't find cheesing BM either.

There are a lot other BMs on ladder, the most I hate those guys starting to get social and ask questions like "from?", "for how long have you played SC?" etc and if you try to be nice and respond he just ignores you. Although it can be considered just a tactic for distracting the opponent, in the long run it will kill any kind of conversations on the ladder.

Worstcase

Switzerland45 Posts

July 18 2010 09:12 GMT

#135

I realy realy realy hate cheese. It's just stupid and 0 fun in my opinion. I already feel guilty when I play a 4 Gate because it feels so cheesy.

I am totaly aware that cheese is a part of the game and that I have to deal with it and it helps keeping stuff interesting, but you know what? When I have 6 Lings in my base before my gate is done on Kulas Ravine I will be realy pissed! I won't BM or anything but in my mind, win by cheese is always undeserved and simply pathetic.

EDIT: On the other hand cheesing has greatly improved my scouting since I realy don't want to lose to someone cheesing, so in a way it helped me

gdroxor

United States639 Posts

July 18 2010 09:13 GMT

#136

Cheesing, like alcohol, many illicit substances, smoking, video games and eating, is best done in moderation. If all you know how to do is cheese and your ladder position is a vast overestimate of your skill level, cheese is not okay.

wolfe

United States761 Posts

July 18 2010 09:19 GMT

#137

Cheese is fine. Sometimes even the best of us just cheese just because we're bored and want to do something random. Other times newbs cheese 24/7 because that's the only way they can win. Either way it's a way to play and I don't care if they want to play that way. They just aren't going to get better, but I am.

Yeah, cheesing is frustrating to lose to, but that's part of the game so deal with it. Even if you're a better player if you may lose to cheese, so what? You messed up therefore you lose. Simply get even better. If you can improve you're scout or micro or consistency you'll defend cheese and win the game. Like day9 and countless others have mentioned...

Good players win, Great players don't lose.