Want some cheese with that whine? [Poll]

On July 18 2010 05:38 iEchoic wrote:
Cheesing is okay if it's adding another dimension to your play. WhiteRa's cheese is awesome because he uses it tactically (i.e. to keep his opponent honest) and he's a legitimately good macro player. The guys who just cheese 24/7 on the ladder are honestly pretty sad, though.

On July 18 2010 05:38 iEchoic wrote:
Cheesing is okay if it's adding another dimension to your play. WhiteRa's cheese is awesome because he uses it tactically (i.e. to keep his opponent honest) and he's a legitimately good macro player. The guys who just cheese 24/7 on the ladder are honestly pretty sad, though.

Personally, I cant see why people have such harsh views against cheesing

I personally do not cheese often, but it disgusts me when i see others BM people who cheese.

On July 18 2010 06:08 zedrOne wrote:




?.?

On July 18 2010 06:11 Mulloy wrote:
Cheese is what you call things you can't stop.

On July 18 2010 06:09 Ghostcom wrote:
I'm fine with cheese, UNLESS it comes from a random player. I think cheese is a very important part of the game, and we all love(d) to see it in BW wondering wheter or not they would pull it off.

But when someone picks random and then cheeses I lose all respect for them.

On July 18 2010 06:12 Daedie wrote:


No it's not: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese

On July 18 2010 06:12 The_Pacifist wrote:


Well, I don't lose all respect that way, but it just feels like they chose random and hoped for terran or zerg but got toss and so they immediately decide to cannon rush.

But whatever. Cheese or not, if I lose to it, I can only blame myself.

On July 18 2010 06:23 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
guys who cheese every game are makiing me sad. especially if they just want to climb the ranks
edit: and i never played a guy with a cheese that was really creative or something.

On July 18 2010 06:53 DefMatrixUltra wrote:


Sorry to single you out because there are thousands upon thousands of posts on TL with this sentiment.

Why do you care about the guy that is cheesing? Are you interested in his progression as a player? Is he dating your mother? etc.

The person you should focus on is yourself. What did you do to make yourself vulnerable to cheese? Why does it anger you when someone pulls off that cheese against you? Is there a weakness in your build timing that you are hoping is not exploited?

If you win, do you think "what a stupid piece of shit!" or do you think "well, my build can respond well to this timing"?

If you lose, do you think "what a stupid piece of shit!" or do you think "what went wrong in my build or response"?

Trying to mystically uncover the motivations of your opponent or making a scapegoat out of them is a huge waste of your time.

On July 18 2010 05:45 Tabbris wrote:
Cheesing was much worst in bw than in sc2. It was like every 4 games someone would cheese. People are alot better in this game for some reason. I just remember i refused 2 cheese when playing starcraft as zerg(12 hatch all the way baby). You had to stop shit like 2 port wraith proxy gate on python..cannon rushes, bunker rushes. proxie barracks. Okey not all of those are cheeses but they were in my eyes! >: (.

The only annoying cheese in sc2 is fast marauder in tvp

On July 18 2010 06:33 Ghostcom wrote:
He was pretty obviously NOT playing random, hoping to get one of 2 races, he was playing random to get an extra advantage when he cheesed and THAT I simply can't respect.

On July 18 2010 07:06 NadaSound wrote:
I got cheesed today by a zerg who went for a five pool. My response was "nice" I said this because of the huge risk involved in doing something like that. If I would have gotten by barracks earlier he would have been donezoe, but scine the build I was using calls for a barracks at 13 his cheese paid off very nicely. I just hope that this 5 pool is not his only means of winning, the guy didn't/couldn't even scout me.

The only cheeses that still exist IMO are proxy gatway play and 6 pool on short maps. The rest is just complaining.

On July 18 2010 07:06 NadaSound wrote:
I got cheesed today by a zerg who went for a five pool. My response was "nice" I said this because of the huge risk involved in doing something like that. If I would have gotten by barracks earlier he would have been donezoe, but scine the build I was using calls for a barracks at 13 his cheese paid off very nicely. I just hope that this 5 pool is not his only means of winning, the guy didn't/couldn't even scout me.

On July 18 2010 07:46 Kpyolysis32 wrote:
I only dislike proxy gates in PvP, which is because it's just really goddamn strong. If he 10 Pylon 10 Gates and you do a 13 Gate, then even if you scout it perfectly it's pretty tough to hold off =P

On July 18 2010 08:03 ToxNub wrote:


I have the same experience.

On July 18 2010 08:18 Looky wrote:
i feel liek cheese is part of the game now. it use to feel like your not a good player in BW but in sc2 theres so many factor that and i think more strategy to it and not so all in anymore

On July 18 2010 10:31 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
it would be nice if you gave a better definition (either in sc1 or sc2, but preferably both) as to what cheesing is. for example, in SC:BW, is 3 hat hydra considered a cheese? In my opinion, it's a timing attack that has it's own strengths and weaknesses, and in many cases can be much weaker than 3 hatch mutalisk. However, there are many people who think that from the number of drones cut, as well as the timing, it is a cheese.

On July 18 2010 11:25 Whole wrote:
Sure, all-in pushes put you behind if you don't win, but you can transition out of them, as you ...

On July 18 2010 12:11 shinosai wrote:
I don't care if someone cheeses in 1v1 because most of the time it's joke strategies that won't work vs a standard build. But I find in 2v2 it has gotten a bit ridiculous. 6 ling rush + reaper in the back, proxy gateway + reaper.... well, you get the picture. This cheese happens nearly every game, and I find it cheapens the playing experience. I suspect the prevalence of cheese in the 2v2 bracket is because it's a lot easier to do than it is to stop.

On July 18 2010 07:14 hp.Methos wrote:


not really cheese. it's not hard to defend against and it isn't all-in

On July 18 2010 18:39 Tabbris wrote:

Fast marader[sic] is defiently[sic] a cheese and it is hard as hell 2[sic] defend against if u[sic] 13 gate

On July 18 2010 05:36 SC2Pandemic wrote:
Personally, I cant see why people have such harsh views against cheesing. I personally feel that it is your problem if you can not adapt to the sitatuion and pull out the win. Many people talk about how BM something is, and in my opinion getting mad at someone for cheesing is the ultimate BM. How dare you condemn someone for playing the game as they want to play it? I personally do not cheese often, but it disgusts me when i see others BM people who cheese.

So, TL.net... whats your opinion on the matter?

On July 18 2010 18:58 gdroxor wrote:


Not really, it isn't an all-in strategy. If fast marauders doesn't work you haven't been cutting your economy badly enough (or at all) to lose the game or be too far behind to catch up. If anything it's just a very solid opening, especially in TvP.
Just because you are bad against a specific strategy doesn't make it cheese.

On July 18 2010 21:55 Herculix wrote:
it's a strategy in the game. if you lose to it, you deserved to. it isn't impossible to prevent and until i see some form of cheese that is, i'm going to assume it's my fault when ever i lose to it.

On July 19 2010 03:56 Endbringer wrote:
I hate it. In a tournament it makes sense. If you are doing a bo3 or whatever I would expect some cheese. A ladder game is bo1, whats the point?

It seems a lot of people think if you lose to it you deserve to lose. Why should I have to send out one of my first 6 SCV's to scout around my base to search for some morons proxy gate? Its not good play to plan on countering everything. No decent player in their right mind would be throwing down a proxy gate with one of their first 6 probes in any bo1 series against good players. Thats basically what ladder is, its a 1 off game. It becomes terrible practice if suddenly I have to play totally different than I would in any other situation just because its ladder and I might be playing against some scrub. Its a waste of my time and it becomes a waste of the cheesers because he isn't getting any better anyway.

Its not about winning, its about learning. If you are number 1 on your ladder and you never go to any lans whats the point? You should be working to improve, not just win mass games. You won a 5 minute game, congrats!

On July 19 2010 03:08 rev.elation wrote:
You're using the units given to you in the game to make a surprising attack. Doing things out of the norm is not 'illegal', it's smart. It's a totally acceptable strategy just like any other.
I honestly can't see any reason to be 'against' cheesing other than being a sore loser.

On July 19 2010 04:41 Tone_ wrote:


It's easily the opposite to smart. As some have mentioned, people just learn how to play this first few minutes of the game, not developing build orders or improving, and doing it over and over again. Enough people doing this begins to grain on the regular players.

Cheese should only be something used occasionally as a surprise to break up the real builds. Yes you're technically not doing anything outside the laws of the game, but that is just an excuse from people who cheese 24/7.

On July 18 2010 05:46 Pistolfied wrote:
I actually kinda like it when I get cheesed because if I'm able to fend it off I'm guaranteed to win because of my economic advantage, so I go into troll mode and attempt to make them rage quit :3

On July 19 2010 04:25 Whomp wrote:

as soon as you hit high ranking diamond the amount of cheese is severely cut back because everyone who's made it that far can beat it. Cheese teaches you the fundamentals of a good beginning *where 90% of cheese happens. You get a BO that works early mid and a scouting habit that lets you know if he's cheesing and if hes not your so practiced you'll come back to scout what his actual build is. Yeah be angry that you've lost, but realize that everyone else had to deal with the same shit you do and people beat it consistently.

Until you reach a certain calibre of play you will always be dealing with meta game period.

On July 19 2010 06:43 Endbringer wrote:


I don't think we are talking about the same kind of cheese. I don't mind random all in's, reaper rushes, cannon rushes. They are silly, but they are easily scoutable with normal play. I am talking about things that are only scoutable if you play totally different than ideal. For example, if a Protoss sends one of his starting probes over to your base and runs up your ramp and into the back corner to place a pylon. The normal Terran BO scouts at about 14, thats waaaay to late. By the time you get your first marine out of your rax you are dead. You had to have scouted this long before 14. When you play a normal game you never have to scout your own base at 6, why would you? You are playing the normal BO and it will lose to that every time. Forgive me for not wanting to practice different strats for different leagues, thats a waste of time to me. Since phase2 started the amount of cheesing in placement matches is stupid. Thats when it hurts you. You lose a match to cheese and suddenly you are in gold or silver until you get the moveup.

Even pro's lose to cheese, thats why its rare for high level games to be anything less than bo3. That way if someone does something crazy once, they get the win, and the games continue.

On July 19 2010 04:41 Tone_ wrote:
Cheese should only be something used occasionally as a surprise to break up the real builds. Yes you're technically not doing anything outside the laws of the game, but that is just an excuse from people who cheese 24/7. Imagine if the game was unbalanced so that it was just cheese? You wouldn't play it. So the players who aren't cheesing all the time are balancing the game from unplayable to playable, and often sacrificing wins etc in the process. Yes cheese is counterable, but often means out of the ordinary scouting, difficulty for new players or those without practice partners.

There, definitively, is the problem.

On July 19 2010 06:59 Chronopolis wrote:


You could scout your own base at 9-10? If the proxy gates are outside then you should barely be fine. The real problem I find, is PvP. If you are 13 gating, even if you scout at pylon, if you don't happen to catch the probe making the gateways, your chances of surviving are pretty damn slim. Maps like desert oasis are especially bad, because the proxy gater doesn't care about scout distances, but you do.

On July 18 2010 06:01 TedJustice wrote:
I think too many people are trying to play starcraft as if it's chess or something.

On July 19 2010 07:19 ckw wrote:
At the end of the day, this will never be agreed upon so... /Thread

On July 19 2010 07:19 ckw wrote:
At the end of the day, this will never be agreed upon so... /Thread

On July 19 2010 07:05 Mulloy wrote:


And what's wrong with this, again? If the only way to play the game was by using cheese, then that would be an argument you could make, but suggesting a hypothetical game that doesn't exist isn't meaningful. What if the only way to play/win was if you had 200/200 of tier 3 Air? Would you play it? Probably not. The game is a mixture of components, cheese is one of them.

In all the competitive games I've played, from RTS to card games to fighters, there are always things people call cheap or cheesy or unfair or whatever. In most cases, it's just annoying, and you learn to adapt to your environment. If it's not something you can actually deal with, then the game designer has to fix it. Everything else is up to the player base.

On July 18 2010 05:36 SC2Pandemic wrote:
Personally, I cant see why people have such harsh views against cheesing. I personally feel that it is your problem if you can not adapt to the sitatuion and pull out the win. Many people talk about how BM something is, and in my opinion getting mad at someone for cheesing is the ultimate BM. How dare you condemn someone for playing the game as they want to play it? I personally do not cheese often, but it disgusts me when i see others BM people who cheese.

So, TL.net... whats your opinion on the matter?

On July 19 2010 19:29 gakkgakk wrote:
Alot of people saying its ok to cheese in tournaments, but not in ladders because you should use ladder to practice. But then how do you get better at cheesing? It does make sense to practice cheese on ladder so that when you do it in a tournament youre awesome at it. Right?

On July 19 2010 23:02 obb wrote:
Not accepting cheese as 100% right and in it's place is like not wanting pre-flop raises in poker.

On July 20 2010 01:27 Dance.jhu wrote:
The Diamond league in American servers is a cheese-fest at around 300 points...I have never played a protoss who didn't cheese.

On July 20 2010 01:27 Dance.jhu wrote:
The Diamond league in American servers is a cheese-fest at around 300 points...I have never played a protoss who didn't cheese.

On July 19 2010 20:02 Tone_ wrote:


People are not reading the thread properly and repeating discussions now, the problems highlighted are to do with those who cheese 24/7. Who wants 50% of their games to be defending cheese, even if you win 100% of the time.