EPTIt ends up making the situation worse for themselves because then their cheese rank is higher than their non-cheese rank and if they try to play standard they get crushed, thus perpetuating the cheese cycle.
Want some cheese with that whine? [Poll] - Page 9
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
It ends up making the situation worse for themselves because then their cheese rank is higher than their non-cheese rank and if they try to play standard they get crushed, thus perpetuating the cheese cycle. | ||
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rev.elation
Sweden84 Posts
I honestly can't see any reason to be 'against' cheesing other than being a sore loser. | ||
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Ecto
Denmark54 Posts
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
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Endbringer
United States111 Posts
It seems a lot of people think if you lose to it you deserve to lose. Why should I have to send out one of my first 6 SCV's to scout around my base to search for some morons proxy gate? Its not good play to plan on countering everything. No decent player in their right mind would be throwing down a proxy gate with one of their first 6 probes in any bo1 series against good players. Thats basically what ladder is, its a 1 off game. It becomes terrible practice if suddenly I have to play totally different than I would in any other situation just because its ladder and I might be playing against some scrub. Its a waste of my time and it becomes a waste of the cheesers because he isn't getting any better anyway. Its not about winning, its about learning. If you are number 1 on your ladder and you never go to any lans whats the point? You should be working to improve, not just win mass games. You won a 5 minute game, congrats! | ||
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
On July 19 2010 03:56 Endbringer wrote: I hate it. In a tournament it makes sense. If you are doing a bo3 or whatever I would expect some cheese. A ladder game is bo1, whats the point? It seems a lot of people think if you lose to it you deserve to lose. Why should I have to send out one of my first 6 SCV's to scout around my base to search for some morons proxy gate? Its not good play to plan on countering everything. No decent player in their right mind would be throwing down a proxy gate with one of their first 6 probes in any bo1 series against good players. Thats basically what ladder is, its a 1 off game. It becomes terrible practice if suddenly I have to play totally different than I would in any other situation just because its ladder and I might be playing against some scrub. Its a waste of my time and it becomes a waste of the cheesers because he isn't getting any better anyway. Its not about winning, its about learning. If you are number 1 on your ladder and you never go to any lans whats the point? You should be working to improve, not just win mass games. You won a 5 minute game, congrats! as soon as you hit high ranking diamond the amount of cheese is severely cut back because everyone who's made it that far can beat it. Cheese teaches you the fundamentals of a good beginning *where 90% of cheese happens. You get a BO that works early mid and a scouting habit that lets you know if he's cheesing and if hes not your so practiced you'll come back to scout what his actual build is. Yeah be angry that you've lost, but realize that everyone else had to deal with the same shit you do and people beat it consistently. Until you reach a certain calibre of play you will always be dealing with meta game period. | ||
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Intropy
Canada92 Posts
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
Cheesing is absolutely not okay when people only cheese (I am a perpetrator of this myself) all their games and get up to Gold/Platinum level. Have you even seen those leagues? They're absolutely filled with people that cheese. This is extremely bad in two ways. First, it will annoy the hell out of new players and cheese is much more prevalent in lower leagues. The new players will get frustrated and leave the game (probably off to UMS but still, we want competitive players). Two, when people cheese and get up to a high Platinum level (yes, it's that easy), they start facing opponent who are skillful enough to block the cheese. Then they don't know how to play and get screwed over so many times that they want to leave the game (probably off to UMS again). I joined SC2 quite late (never played SC1 properly) during phase 1, around patch 12. I managed to get up to Platinum (when Diamond was the highest) by cannon cheesing/2 gate proxy cheesing every game. You had no idea how bad it was when I couldn't use these anymore. I had absolutely no idea how to macro, no idea how to micro and I didn't even know basic build orders. Thankfully the beta went down (yes, thankfully) because I started watching Day9's dailies which helped me learn a lot. I went back to the game and now I'm in Diamond trying desperately to learn how to macro because I just crumble in long games. Which is why my best matchup is PvP, my worst matchup is PvZ and I can't break PvT mech (the last two are both macro games). I got to high-ish Diamond by doing 4 gate every game and becoming really good at that because generally games are over quickly and there's no long term macro involved. Long story short/tl;dr - cheese is good when incorporated into standard play. By itself, it's horrible. | ||
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Tone_
United Kingdom554 Posts
On July 19 2010 03:08 rev.elation wrote: You're using the units given to you in the game to make a surprising attack. Doing things out of the norm is not 'illegal', it's smart. It's a totally acceptable strategy just like any other. I honestly can't see any reason to be 'against' cheesing other than being a sore loser. It's easily the opposite to smart. As some have mentioned, people just learn how to play this first few minutes of the game, not developing build orders or improving, and doing it over and over again. Enough people doing this begins to grain on the regular players. Cheese should only be something used occasionally as a surprise to break up the real builds. Yes you're technically not doing anything outside the laws of the game, but that is just an excuse from people who cheese 24/7. Imagine if the game was unbalanced so that it was just cheese? You wouldn't play it. So the players who aren't cheesing all the time are balancing the game from unplayable to playable, and often sacrificing wins etc in the process. Yes cheese is counterable, but often means out of the ordinary scouting, difficulty for new players or those without practice partners. There, definitively, is the problem. | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
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rev.elation
Sweden84 Posts
On July 19 2010 04:41 Tone_ wrote: It's easily the opposite to smart. As some have mentioned, people just learn how to play this first few minutes of the game, not developing build orders or improving, and doing it over and over again. Enough people doing this begins to grain on the regular players. Cheese should only be something used occasionally as a surprise to break up the real builds. Yes you're technically not doing anything outside the laws of the game, but that is just an excuse from people who cheese 24/7. Yes, I agree with you. In my previous post I just assumed that we were talking about players who occasionally pull a cheese(stupid of me), didn't think about those who do nothing but cheese in every game. That is obviously not 'smart' if you're learning the game. I still don't see cheese as a problem though. I'm not the one cheesing all the time, I'm still learning the game, etc. Honestly I find it humorous when I (rarely) get cheesed (whether I get defeated or repel it) and it's not the typical game you always have. | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
What's annoying is how good strats are being labeled as 'cheese' now. Like when HD (I tihnk) called what TLO or what someone did vs idra 'cheese'. When all it was was smart strategy and punishing idra for heavy overdroning. It's pretty sad that it seems like 'nr 20' is the only thing not considered cheese by all the newer generation of SC players. | ||
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Lrn2pleyn00b
8 Posts
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Jacobs Ladder
United States1705 Posts
How is that fun? | ||
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Zeromadcowz
Canada241 Posts
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OverSight
United States104 Posts
On July 18 2010 05:46 Pistolfied wrote: I actually kinda like it when I get cheesed because if I'm able to fend it off I'm guaranteed to win because of my economic advantage, so I go into troll mode and attempt to make them rage quit :3 Agreed. The cheese can be frustrating to deal with but it simplifies the fabric of the match considerably. It gives you so much information on your opponents intentions and capabilities. | ||
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Endbringer
United States111 Posts
On July 19 2010 04:25 Whomp wrote: as soon as you hit high ranking diamond the amount of cheese is severely cut back because everyone who's made it that far can beat it. Cheese teaches you the fundamentals of a good beginning *where 90% of cheese happens. You get a BO that works early mid and a scouting habit that lets you know if he's cheesing and if hes not your so practiced you'll come back to scout what his actual build is. Yeah be angry that you've lost, but realize that everyone else had to deal with the same shit you do and people beat it consistently. Until you reach a certain calibre of play you will always be dealing with meta game period. I don't think we are talking about the same kind of cheese. I don't mind random all in's, reaper rushes, cannon rushes. They are silly, but they are easily scoutable with normal play. I am talking about things that are only scoutable if you play totally different than ideal. For example, if a Protoss sends one of his starting probes over to your base and runs up your ramp and into the back corner to place a pylon. The normal Terran BO scouts at about 14, thats waaaay to late. By the time you get your first marine out of your rax you are dead. You had to have scouted this long before 14. When you play a normal game you never have to scout your own base at 6, why would you? You are playing the normal BO and it will lose to that every time. Forgive me for not wanting to practice different strats for different leagues, thats a waste of time to me. Since phase2 started the amount of cheesing in placement matches is stupid. Thats when it hurts you. You lose a match to cheese and suddenly you are in gold or silver until you get the moveup. Even pro's lose to cheese, thats why its rare for high level games to be anything less than bo3. That way if someone does something crazy once, they get the win, and the games continue. | ||
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Awesomo
Netherlands206 Posts
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
On July 19 2010 06:43 Endbringer wrote: I don't think we are talking about the same kind of cheese. I don't mind random all in's, reaper rushes, cannon rushes. They are silly, but they are easily scoutable with normal play. I am talking about things that are only scoutable if you play totally different than ideal. For example, if a Protoss sends one of his starting probes over to your base and runs up your ramp and into the back corner to place a pylon. The normal Terran BO scouts at about 14, thats waaaay to late. By the time you get your first marine out of your rax you are dead. You had to have scouted this long before 14. When you play a normal game you never have to scout your own base at 6, why would you? You are playing the normal BO and it will lose to that every time. Forgive me for not wanting to practice different strats for different leagues, thats a waste of time to me. Since phase2 started the amount of cheesing in placement matches is stupid. Thats when it hurts you. You lose a match to cheese and suddenly you are in gold or silver until you get the moveup. Even pro's lose to cheese, thats why its rare for high level games to be anything less than bo3. That way if someone does something crazy once, they get the win, and the games continue. You could scout your own base at 9-10? If the proxy gates are outside then you should barely be fine. The real problem I find, is PvP. If you are 13 gating, even if you scout at pylon, if you don't happen to catch the probe making the gateways, your chances of surviving are pretty damn slim. Maps like desert oasis are especially bad, because the proxy gater doesn't care about scout distances, but you do. | ||
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
If you play Starcraft you are generally someone who plays games for the high skillcap and skill based gameplay. Cheesing as your entire game without the ability to play even close to as well in standard play makes you bad. Personally I am at the point where beating a cheese player provides no real learning or benefit besides artificially inflating my rating so I face harder opponents. But I feel a game where I get cheesed the rest of the game is "easy" because I am so far ahead. And like I said I'd rather lose a 5min game than play a 15minute game where I don't learn anything and get back to training. | ||
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