|
On July 19 2010 04:41 Tone_ wrote:
Cheese should only be something used occasionally as a surprise to break up the real builds. Yes you're technically not doing anything outside the laws of the game, but that is just an excuse from people who cheese 24/7. Imagine if the game was unbalanced so that it was just cheese? You wouldn't play it. So the players who aren't cheesing all the time are balancing the game from unplayable to playable, and often sacrificing wins etc in the process. Yes cheese is counterable, but often means out of the ordinary scouting, difficulty for new players or those without practice partners.
There, definitively, is the problem.
And what's wrong with this, again? If the only way to play the game was by using cheese, then that would be an argument you could make, but suggesting a hypothetical game that doesn't exist isn't meaningful. What if the only way to play/win was if you had 200/200 of tier 3 Air? Would you play it? Probably not. The game is a mixture of components, cheese is one of them.
In all the competitive games I've played, from RTS to card games to fighters, there are always things people call cheap or cheesy or unfair or whatever. In most cases, it's just annoying, and you learn to adapt to your environment. If it's not something you can actually deal with, then the game designer has to fix it. Everything else is up to the player base.
|
On July 19 2010 06:59 Chronopolis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 06:43 Endbringer wrote:On July 19 2010 04:25 Whomp wrote:
as soon as you hit high ranking diamond the amount of cheese is severely cut back because everyone who's made it that far can beat it. Cheese teaches you the fundamentals of a good beginning *where 90% of cheese happens. You get a BO that works early mid and a scouting habit that lets you know if he's cheesing and if hes not your so practiced you'll come back to scout what his actual build is. Yeah be angry that you've lost, but realize that everyone else had to deal with the same shit you do and people beat it consistently.
Until you reach a certain calibre of play you will always be dealing with meta game period. I don't think we are talking about the same kind of cheese. I don't mind random all in's, reaper rushes, cannon rushes. They are silly, but they are easily scoutable with normal play. I am talking about things that are only scoutable if you play totally different than ideal. For example, if a Protoss sends one of his starting probes over to your base and runs up your ramp and into the back corner to place a pylon. The normal Terran BO scouts at about 14, thats waaaay to late. By the time you get your first marine out of your rax you are dead. You had to have scouted this long before 14. When you play a normal game you never have to scout your own base at 6, why would you? You are playing the normal BO and it will lose to that every time. Forgive me for not wanting to practice different strats for different leagues, thats a waste of time to me. Since phase2 started the amount of cheesing in placement matches is stupid. Thats when it hurts you. You lose a match to cheese and suddenly you are in gold or silver until you get the moveup. Even pro's lose to cheese, thats why its rare for high level games to be anything less than bo3. That way if someone does something crazy once, they get the win, and the games continue. You could scout your own base at 9-10? If the proxy gates are outside then you should barely be fine. The real problem I find, is PvP. If you are 13 gating, even if you scout at pylon, if you don't happen to catch the probe making the gateways, your chances of surviving are pretty damn slim. Maps like desert oasis are especially bad, because the proxy gater doesn't care about scout distances, but you do.
I am talking about pylons up your ramp inside your base on maps with large bases and small rush distances. If you decide to wall in, might as well just leave the game then. Your rax is so far out from your CC your marines cant cover the distance and you cant setup a bunker with the zealots all over you. Thankfully I don't wall in vs Protoss, but I digress.
Yes you could scout at 9 or 8 or 6 etc. Thats not the point. His point was that cheese teaches you strong BO's and mechanics, and it doesn't. You are forced to play with a less than ideal BO because you have to do things like scout at 9. The standard scout is at 14. If I want to practice the standard BO, then I will be scouting at 14. If I play a diamond or even a plat player, I will be scouting at 14. Suddenly I have to scout at 9 because I am playing a gold level player? Thats stupid.
|
On July 18 2010 06:01 TedJustice wrote:
I think too many people are trying to play starcraft as if it's chess or something.
Well even in chess, there are cheese equivalents. Like scholar's mate, or the fried livers attack
|
At the end of the day, this will never be agreed upon so... /Thread
|
On July 19 2010 07:19 ckw wrote:
At the end of the day, this will never be agreed upon so... /Thread
At the end of the day, it still counts as a loss. :D
|
My problems with cheese is that it doesn't make you learn. If you 6 pool me and win you didn't learn anything. In a tournament setting cheese has it's own place and is a good strategy, but cheesing in the ladders is just silly.
When I am playing for realz with my practice partners I use a Roach early push that sac's my eco to overrun my Toss opp. When I am playing in the ladders I go for the longer games because it isn't about winning or losing in ladders, it's about learning.
Someone mentioned a 7 minute DT rush and how it's not cheese. I disagree because if you go for a DT rush you are spending all the extra minerals and gas on ur DT tech (not to mention the DT's themselves) and if I do a roach timing attack on you, you will probably die (not to mention that detectors aren't hard to get). If your dt's start popping up at the 7 minute mark when you've turtled in one base with me at 2 and then you start killing my drones, I'll make a overseer, destroy your DT's and then push on your base because your gameplan doesn't handle a counter attack well (IMO the definition of a cheese).
|
On July 19 2010 07:19 ckw wrote:
At the end of the day, this will never be agreed upon so... /Thread
This wasn't made looking for ppl to agree on something, this was made to know what most of TL ppl feels about this.
an as the poll says im ok with it
|
On July 19 2010 07:05 Mulloy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 04:41 Tone_ wrote:
Cheese should only be something used occasionally as a surprise to break up the real builds. Yes you're technically not doing anything outside the laws of the game, but that is just an excuse from people who cheese 24/7. Imagine if the game was unbalanced so that it was just cheese? You wouldn't play it. So the players who aren't cheesing all the time are balancing the game from unplayable to playable, and often sacrificing wins etc in the process. Yes cheese is counterable, but often means out of the ordinary scouting, difficulty for new players or those without practice partners.
There, definitively, is the problem. And what's wrong with this, again? If the only way to play the game was by using cheese, then that would be an argument you could make, but suggesting a hypothetical game that doesn't exist isn't meaningful. What if the only way to play/win was if you had 200/200 of tier 3 Air? Would you play it? Probably not. The game is a mixture of components, cheese is one of them. In all the competitive games I've played, from RTS to card games to fighters, there are always things people call cheap or cheesy or unfair or whatever. In most cases, it's just annoying, and you learn to adapt to your environment. If it's not something you can actually deal with, then the game designer has to fix it. Everything else is up to the player base.
Everyone knows the answer. Scout properly etc etc etc, I've no interest in discussing the proper answer, as although they may be the ideal solution, it's not always possible / difficult to learn / in some cases un-doable.
The point is, that ignoring this made up game, if everyone did cheese in the current SC2 build, who would play it? That is the problem. Yes cheese should 100% definitely exist and be in the game to be used by all players at correct points, but players who cheese 100% of the time and hide behind the fact that it does exist in the game doesn't mean that it should be acceptable / immune to negative responses. Why because it exists in the game to be abused should it not be hated? I can kill someone, but it's frowned upon isn't it.
Existence is not an argument in 99% of situations.
|
It's just boring playing vs cheese, if I know how to handle it and scout it quick enough I'm going to deflect it, and then I'm going to be ahead if I haven't won flat out already. Playing vs cheese is boring, it's not really about actual skill, it's just about knowing what to do vs it, and scouting it. If I beat a cheeser, it's a waste of time. I'd rather have played someone actually good who played standard, letting me put my skill to use. Beating someone who unsuccessfully cheesed is disapointing.
|
Cheese makes the game experience in the lower levels (when you just started playing), a lot lot lot more frustrating (imo).
E.g. canonrushes on 2-player maps are just awful.
There's a chance you don't see the worker coming, because your opponent doesn't have to scout your position and you're focusing on your macro.
Especially against P it's really hard, since the worker doesn't hav to stay and build, but can spread
the canons/pylons all over your base.
I guess many bronze-players don't know how to respond to the most cheese-"strats" and therefore
lose to it.
You don't really get better if you play against cheese.
What did I learn in the end of a match, where my opponent barricaded in his base, didn't expand and I finally raped him with 10 carriers and a mothership? oO
Nothing, despite that carriers look cool when cloaked an motherships are just epic.
But personally I still don't care about (100%-)cheesers, since they don't learn anything by cheesing and unlike them I'm improving my gameplay day by day.
|
ive only cheesed like 6 times, all vs a rl friend to make him mad, never in ladder because i hate it with passion
|
I personally hate cheesers mainly because I, myself, am not good enough to quickly counter and defend against cheese. I enjoy a good game where we're both macroing up and countering each other's units. No surprises, just whomever has the more skill wins. I know this applies with cheese as well, but defending against cheese is just a whole different ball-game for me. It just aggravates me so much because all I want is a good game. Just because you're bored and want a stupid win to laugh, doesn't mean you should cheese in ladder games. It's just annoying. The cheeser feels a little neat when he gets away with it, but you can't help but feel guilty after getting a free win like that.
Personally, I think that if you feel guilty for a win, then it isn't worth doing.
|
There's a strong difference between cheesing on ladder and cheesing in a tournament (assuming the tournament isn't bo1)
Cheesing on the ladder is what makes me mad because you don't get a chance for a rematch, so many players just do one easy win strategy every single game they play to get to high rating. They can use the same strategy over and over because people haven't played them before or don't remember and thus aren't expecting it.
However, if you're going to play a bo3+ against someone, you either need to not cheese or have at the very least some different strategies lined up, because if you try the same cheese over and over, you're either going to lose or your opponent deserves to win (or there's some inherent imbalance with that strategy)
|
IMO there is no cheese, just smart play...
People complain way to much about all non-standard build orders being 'cheese'... because they just lost to it. It's like PvP scouting your opponent going typical yawnfest 4 gate no robo, and you counter with 3 gate DT... I've had people call that cheese somehow? More like perfectly valid counter after reading what your opponent is doing.
And I've played so many zergs complaining about protoss 2 gate zealot versus their typical 14 pool then expo... it's like they expect us to sit there and let them expo and build up 60 drones while we twiddle our thumbs?
|
it pisses me off but it IS my fault if i don't scout it out or deal with it appropriately. the threat of cheese is good overall i think. but i personally don't like cheesing whatsoever and what pisses me off the most is that (at least on the ladder) people who cannon-rush or 6 pool or banshee rush are always the ones who pre-emptively gg. so yeah it's a little faggy. can't say i'm a fan.
|
Cheese usually isnt without risk, so its ok to use it.
|
On July 18 2010 05:36 SC2Pandemic wrote:Personally, I cant see why people have such harsh views against cheesing. I personally feel that it is your problem if you can not adapt to the sitatuion and pull out the win. Many people talk about how BM something is, and in my opinion getting mad at someone for cheesing is the ultimate BM. How dare you condemn someone for playing the game as they want to play it? I personally do not cheese often, but it disgusts me when i see others BM people who cheese. So, TL.net... whats your opinion on the matter? Poll: How do you feel about cheesing?Okay with it (864) 58% Hate it (369) 25% Dont care either way (251) 17% 1484 total votes Your vote: How do you feel about cheesing? (Vote): Okay with it
(Vote): Hate it
(Vote): Dont care either way
Whatever wins you the game is ok imho.
|
Whatever wins you the game is ok imho.
No one likes to be cheesed, but its just the game works and
you will just have to live with the game mechanics.
|
Cheesing is fun, it's part of the game. I really don't mind cheese in ladders, it's a good way for me to improve my scouting the hard way.
But if you're a cheesing bastard, don't be surprised if you get trolled when the cheese fails (void ray protoss rushers are a favourite of mine).
|
Alot of people saying its ok to cheese in tournaments, but not in ladders because you should use ladder to practice. But then how do you get better at cheesing? It does make sense to practice cheese on ladder so that when you do it in a tournament youre awesome at it. Right?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
