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People seem to be of the impression that the difficulty of controlling units in SCBW comes at no cost.
You are wrong. Because of the difficulty involved in controlling units, certain strategies are flat out not effective. Certain strategies are less effective than they would be otherwise (ohi, Sair/Reaver).
The only thing that will change as competition switches from SCBW to SC2 is strategies/scouting/decisions will become relatively more important compared to micro skills (assuming Blizzard doesn't change anything).
Thats not bad or good. Thats just the way its going to be.
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What makes you think that sc2 has more decisions to be made than scbw?
So far to me it is just some dumbed down game to appeal to less good players.
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On June 12 2010 17:57 metaldragon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 17:39 raga4ka wrote:On June 12 2010 17:20 metaldragon wrote:On June 12 2010 17:10 endy wrote:On June 12 2010 17:04 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Seriously,Why do people assume that sc2 will not get better?
I am defending it,its not a bad game,its only different from the original.I will say without a doubt BW is infinitely more fun to watch and play,but seriously why do you go on shutting down something before its reached its full potential. Because with MBS, automine, smart cast, and units that have to stop moving to attack, any noob can have Flash's rines macro, cast storm like Jangbi, and it's very hard to micro attacking units, and it's useless to micro workers. I don't see how giving more time to SC2 will change anything to what I mention above. You might "think" this is true but a few players have actually coem back tot BW with Better Skills then they had when they Left for Sc2. Sc2 is more demanding in some form than BW is. How exactly Im not sure. On paper it looks like sc2 is a easier game but in practice this doesn't seem to be the case. Is it the added Macro Mechanics? (forcing better decision making?) Is It the addition of more "hard counters" (forcing better scouting?) Ive talked to and Seen like a said a few player go back to BW with noticeably better skills then they had. If Sc2 was the easier game I think the opposite would be more apparent. I'm not saying SC2 is a "harder" game but its definitely a "different" game. You are joking right ? The only players that gets better at BW by playing SC2 is the players that have never actually played BW competitively . On the other hand a D+/C- level iccup player can easily be a high ranked diamond league player if he practised his builds and timing just a little . BTW For the Record Idra actually just did he best yet as far as OSL qualifiers and we all know he's been playing ALOT less sc1 lately...to say the least. I think Sc2 forces better decision making and/or scouting then Sc1.
Are you serious ? Are you trying to say Idra beat Gorush because he played SC2 ? If Sc2 makes you better at SC1 why aren't all the SC1 progamers playing SC2 to improve at SC1 ? This doesn't make any sense. I think Idra came to this qualifiers with no pressure, so he just came relaxed and confident and did great. And anyway even if I am wrong about Idra, you only gave one case and tried to generalize. As someone just said, just look at all these iccup Ds that are on top of their diamond leagues...
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On June 12 2010 18:00 RoieTRS wrote:
What makes you think that sc2 has more decisions to be made than scbw?
So far to me it is just some dumbed down game to appeal to less good players.
It doesn't have to have any more decisions for my claims to be true.
The fact is, you can attach a difficulty value to the execution of any given decision in SCBW and SC2. These difficulties are not identical - I would argue SCBW makes the execution of the average decision rather harder than SC2.
This makes decisions less important, by its very nature. If it is harder to execute a decision, decisions are rendered worthless unless you can execute them. When more people can execute more decisions, that execution skill ceases to distinguish you from the rank and file, but the relative importance of the decisions you actually make rises.
Your argument ends up claiming that chess involves no skill whatsoever, and that competitive rifle shooting (or similar sports) involve more skill than SCBW or anything else.
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Bulgaria5679 Posts
On June 12 2010 17:57 metaldragon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 17:39 raga4ka wrote:On June 12 2010 17:20 metaldragon wrote:On June 12 2010 17:10 endy wrote:On June 12 2010 17:04 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Seriously,Why do people assume that sc2 will not get better?
I am defending it,its not a bad game,its only different from the original.I will say without a doubt BW is infinitely more fun to watch and play,but seriously why do you go on shutting down something before its reached its full potential. Because with MBS, automine, smart cast, and units that have to stop moving to attack, any noob can have Flash's rines macro, cast storm like Jangbi, and it's very hard to micro attacking units, and it's useless to micro workers. I don't see how giving more time to SC2 will change anything to what I mention above. You might "think" this is true but a few players have actually coem back tot BW with Better Skills then they had when they Left for Sc2. Sc2 is more demanding in some form than BW is. How exactly Im not sure. On paper it looks like sc2 is a easier game but in practice this doesn't seem to be the case. Is it the added Macro Mechanics? (forcing better decision making?) Is It the addition of more "hard counters" (forcing better scouting?) Ive talked to and Seen like a said a few player go back to BW with noticeably better skills then they had. If Sc2 was the easier game I think the opposite would be more apparent. I'm not saying SC2 is a "harder" game but its definitely a "different" game. You are joking right ? The only players that gets better at BW by playing SC2 is the players that have never actually played BW competitively . On the other hand a D+/C- level iccup player can easily be a high ranked diamond league player if he practised his builds and timing just a little . BTW For the Record Idra actually just did he best yet as far as OSL qualifiers and we all know he's been playing ALOT less sc1 lately...to say the least. I think Sc2 forces better decision making and/or scouting then Sc1.
What better decision making ROFL the games are different as you mentioned . Playing zerg in SC2 won't make your decision making with terran better in SC1 . If anything Idra could have beaten Jaehoon if he played SC1 all this time , and who knows he maybe could have taken a game from Hiya .
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On June 12 2010 18:00 RoieTRS wrote:
What makes you think that sc2 has more decisions to be made than scbw?
So far to me it is just some dumbed down game to appeal to less good players.
Mule,supply drop, or scan?
Chrono upgrade,units or probs?
zerg has it the easiest with spawn larve but it requires the most APM to keep up with late game.
Hard counters create Hard Choices. True "Perfect armies" don't really exist in sc2. Every Race is much more mobile and scouting is much more important. Left a space for a pylon in your base? Nydus worm in a unscouted area of your main?
The only thing that got easier with Sc2 is
1. MBS (I still hardly ever see anyone with amazing macro because of this)
2. smart cast (over rated)
3. auto mine (only helps someone who had terrible macro)
4. 1 control group sydrome (which hurts more then it helps in a lot of cases)
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I'm dismayed...
Watching a new game that's not fully developed and gets completely turned upside-down by subtle patch changes... in no way compares to watching the pinnacle of years of labor - a rivalry of Flash versus Jaedong. Or Zero, or any of the S class players.
Starcraft has given me much joy as a player and spectator. This conveniently provides my opportunity to exit the scene by saying this new game is the spawn of a different company than that which made the first game. This one is not in it for the fans, the community, or most importantly the players that have worked so hard to bring it where it is today.
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It's mostly Artosis saying that this might be the last OSL for BW... Hwanni is actually hesitant to say anything concrete really, and is more like "maybe" last one for BW, maybe might continue for a bit more.
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Thank you for the interview as always Artosis.
Cheeky request: is there any chance you can do some video editing on future interviews? Hwanni is really quiet compared to you (obviously due to the position of the camera) and it makes it hard to hear his answers. Just a bit of post-processing on the video to even out the audio would be really appreciated.
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On June 12 2010 18:04 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 17:57 metaldragon wrote:On June 12 2010 17:39 raga4ka wrote:On June 12 2010 17:20 metaldragon wrote:On June 12 2010 17:10 endy wrote:On June 12 2010 17:04 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Seriously,Why do people assume that sc2 will not get better?
I am defending it,its not a bad game,its only different from the original.I will say without a doubt BW is infinitely more fun to watch and play,but seriously why do you go on shutting down something before its reached its full potential. Because with MBS, automine, smart cast, and units that have to stop moving to attack, any noob can have Flash's rines macro, cast storm like Jangbi, and it's very hard to micro attacking units, and it's useless to micro workers. I don't see how giving more time to SC2 will change anything to what I mention above. You might "think" this is true but a few players have actually coem back tot BW with Better Skills then they had when they Left for Sc2. Sc2 is more demanding in some form than BW is. How exactly Im not sure. On paper it looks like sc2 is a easier game but in practice this doesn't seem to be the case. Is it the added Macro Mechanics? (forcing better decision making?) Is It the addition of more "hard counters" (forcing better scouting?) Ive talked to and Seen like a said a few player go back to BW with noticeably better skills then they had. If Sc2 was the easier game I think the opposite would be more apparent. I'm not saying SC2 is a "harder" game but its definitely a "different" game. You are joking right ? The only players that gets better at BW by playing SC2 is the players that have never actually played BW competitively . On the other hand a D+/C- level iccup player can easily be a high ranked diamond league player if he practised his builds and timing just a little . BTW For the Record Idra actually just did he best yet as far as OSL qualifiers and we all know he's been playing ALOT less sc1 lately...to say the least. I think Sc2 forces better decision making and/or scouting then Sc1. Are you serious ? Are you trying to say Idra beat Gorush because he played SC2 ? If Sc2 makes you better at SC1 why aren't all the SC1 progamers playing SC2 to improve at SC1 ? This doesn't make any sense. I think Idra came to this qualifiers with no pressure, so he just came relaxed and confident and did great. And anyway even if I am wrong about Idra, you only gave one case and tried to generalize. As someone just said, just look at all these iccup Ds that are on top of their diamond leagues...
Who cares if a D rank is #1 in diamond? so are all the C's B's And A's! We have WOW players in the beta for crying out loud and there are hundreds of leagues at this point.
The Skill Gap is still very easy to notice between good players and Great players and It not hard to tell the the skill ceiling has not even come close to being reached.
Sc2 is a Different Game It not fair to call it a Worst game or even a "Easier" game at this point.
.
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On June 12 2010 18:26 metaldragon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 18:04 endy wrote:On June 12 2010 17:57 metaldragon wrote:On June 12 2010 17:39 raga4ka wrote:On June 12 2010 17:20 metaldragon wrote:On June 12 2010 17:10 endy wrote:On June 12 2010 17:04 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Seriously,Why do people assume that sc2 will not get better?
I am defending it,its not a bad game,its only different from the original.I will say without a doubt BW is infinitely more fun to watch and play,but seriously why do you go on shutting down something before its reached its full potential. Because with MBS, automine, smart cast, and units that have to stop moving to attack, any noob can have Flash's rines macro, cast storm like Jangbi, and it's very hard to micro attacking units, and it's useless to micro workers. I don't see how giving more time to SC2 will change anything to what I mention above. You might "think" this is true but a few players have actually coem back tot BW with Better Skills then they had when they Left for Sc2. Sc2 is more demanding in some form than BW is. How exactly Im not sure. On paper it looks like sc2 is a easier game but in practice this doesn't seem to be the case. Is it the added Macro Mechanics? (forcing better decision making?) Is It the addition of more "hard counters" (forcing better scouting?) Ive talked to and Seen like a said a few player go back to BW with noticeably better skills then they had. If Sc2 was the easier game I think the opposite would be more apparent. I'm not saying SC2 is a "harder" game but its definitely a "different" game. You are joking right ? The only players that gets better at BW by playing SC2 is the players that have never actually played BW competitively . On the other hand a D+/C- level iccup player can easily be a high ranked diamond league player if he practised his builds and timing just a little . BTW For the Record Idra actually just did he best yet as far as OSL qualifiers and we all know he's been playing ALOT less sc1 lately...to say the least. I think Sc2 forces better decision making and/or scouting then Sc1. Are you serious ? Are you trying to say Idra beat Gorush because he played SC2 ? If Sc2 makes you better at SC1 why aren't all the SC1 progamers playing SC2 to improve at SC1 ? This doesn't make any sense. I think Idra came to this qualifiers with no pressure, so he just came relaxed and confident and did great. And anyway even if I am wrong about Idra, you only gave one case and tried to generalize. As someone just said, just look at all these iccup Ds that are on top of their diamond leagues... Who cares if a D rank is #1 in diamond? so are all the C's B's And A's! We have WOW players in the beta for crying out loud and there are hundreds of leagues at this point. The Skill Gap is still very easy to notice between good players and Great players and It not hard to tell the the skill ceiling has not even come close to being reached. Sc2 is a Different Game It not fair to call it a Worst game or even a "Easier" game at this point.
SC2 is objectively easier though. MBS, auto-mining etc. makes the game a ton easier for everyone. The argument shouldn't be "Is SC2 easier than SC1?" but rather "Will SC2 have as high a skill level as SC1 did?" which only time will tell.
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Too soon..... too fokking soon.
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Bulgaria5679 Posts
On June 12 2010 18:18 bias- wrote:
I'm dismayed...
Watching a new game that's not fully developed and gets completely turned upside-down by subtle patch changes... in no way compares to watching the pinnacle of years of labor - a rivalry of Flash versus Jaedong. Or Zero, or any of the S class players.
Starcraft has given me much joy as a player and spectator. This conveniently provides my opportunity to exit the scene by saying this new game is the spawn of a different company than that which made the first game. This one is not in it for the fans, the community, or most importantly the players that have worked so hard to bring it where it is today.
This ... After all the expansions are released it will take at least 2 - 3 years for spectators to start appreciating the players skills as an e - sport , even then the way SC2 is , it will be hard to watch for dedicated fans let alone for spectators who are just geting in to it . OSL won't replace BW with an inferior e - sport they are not stupid . I won't believe any of this crap unless i see it . OSL will not show SC2 instead of BW anytime soon and i'm happy with that . The maps in SC2 so far are a joke as well . No lan ...You think it would be fun for the spectators when the drop screen appears several times during the game ?
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On June 12 2010 18:30 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 18:26 metaldragon wrote:On June 12 2010 18:04 endy wrote:On June 12 2010 17:57 metaldragon wrote:On June 12 2010 17:39 raga4ka wrote:On June 12 2010 17:20 metaldragon wrote:On June 12 2010 17:10 endy wrote:On June 12 2010 17:04 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Seriously,Why do people assume that sc2 will not get better?
I am defending it,its not a bad game,its only different from the original.I will say without a doubt BW is infinitely more fun to watch and play,but seriously why do you go on shutting down something before its reached its full potential. Because with MBS, automine, smart cast, and units that have to stop moving to attack, any noob can have Flash's rines macro, cast storm like Jangbi, and it's very hard to micro attacking units, and it's useless to micro workers. I don't see how giving more time to SC2 will change anything to what I mention above. You might "think" this is true but a few players have actually coem back tot BW with Better Skills then they had when they Left for Sc2. Sc2 is more demanding in some form than BW is. How exactly Im not sure. On paper it looks like sc2 is a easier game but in practice this doesn't seem to be the case. Is it the added Macro Mechanics? (forcing better decision making?) Is It the addition of more "hard counters" (forcing better scouting?) Ive talked to and Seen like a said a few player go back to BW with noticeably better skills then they had. If Sc2 was the easier game I think the opposite would be more apparent. I'm not saying SC2 is a "harder" game but its definitely a "different" game. You are joking right ? The only players that gets better at BW by playing SC2 is the players that have never actually played BW competitively . On the other hand a D+/C- level iccup player can easily be a high ranked diamond league player if he practised his builds and timing just a little . BTW For the Record Idra actually just did he best yet as far as OSL qualifiers and we all know he's been playing ALOT less sc1 lately...to say the least. I think Sc2 forces better decision making and/or scouting then Sc1. Are you serious ? Are you trying to say Idra beat Gorush because he played SC2 ? If Sc2 makes you better at SC1 why aren't all the SC1 progamers playing SC2 to improve at SC1 ? This doesn't make any sense. I think Idra came to this qualifiers with no pressure, so he just came relaxed and confident and did great. And anyway even if I am wrong about Idra, you only gave one case and tried to generalize. As someone just said, just look at all these iccup Ds that are on top of their diamond leagues... Who cares if a D rank is #1 in diamond? so are all the C's B's And A's! We have WOW players in the beta for crying out loud and there are hundreds of leagues at this point. The Skill Gap is still very easy to notice between good players and Great players and It not hard to tell the the skill ceiling has not even come close to being reached. Sc2 is a Different Game It not fair to call it a Worst game or even a "Easier" game at this point. SC2 is objectively easier though. MBS, auto-mining etc. makes the game a ton easier for everyone. The argument shouldn't be "Is SC2 easier than SC1?" but rather "Will SC2 have as high a skill level as SC1 did?" which only time will tell.
True enough...The Macro has gotten a little easier but the choices you make have gotten harder IMO.
I'm sure everyone agree thats scouting in Sc2 in much more important than scouting in BW.
I Do Hope to see the skill ceiling pushed as high as BW has been pushed.
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On June 12 2010 13:40 andeh wrote:
cant wait to see how they play sc2 with the current lack of features with battlenet/sc2 in general
dont fck this up blizzard.
this is kind of crazy, considering no lan latency/less than ideal maps.
will blizzcon be before or after the next osl prelims? because blizzcon will (probably) have a sc2 tournament, and I CAN NOT WAIT to see how blizz runs the sc2 blizzcon tournament
I don't really see how it will be that different from the WC3 tournament.
And from the comments sounds like people are over-reacting quite a lot at this stage, though we will have to see what happens in the upcoming weeks.
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On June 12 2010 18:42 metaldragon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 18:30 Jimmeh wrote:On June 12 2010 18:26 metaldragon wrote:On June 12 2010 18:04 endy wrote:On June 12 2010 17:57 metaldragon wrote:On June 12 2010 17:39 raga4ka wrote:On June 12 2010 17:20 metaldragon wrote:On June 12 2010 17:10 endy wrote:On June 12 2010 17:04 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Seriously,Why do people assume that sc2 will not get better?
I am defending it,its not a bad game,its only different from the original.I will say without a doubt BW is infinitely more fun to watch and play,but seriously why do you go on shutting down something before its reached its full potential. Because with MBS, automine, smart cast, and units that have to stop moving to attack, any noob can have Flash's rines macro, cast storm like Jangbi, and it's very hard to micro attacking units, and it's useless to micro workers. I don't see how giving more time to SC2 will change anything to what I mention above. You might "think" this is true but a few players have actually coem back tot BW with Better Skills then they had when they Left for Sc2. Sc2 is more demanding in some form than BW is. How exactly Im not sure. On paper it looks like sc2 is a easier game but in practice this doesn't seem to be the case. Is it the added Macro Mechanics? (forcing better decision making?) Is It the addition of more "hard counters" (forcing better scouting?) Ive talked to and Seen like a said a few player go back to BW with noticeably better skills then they had. If Sc2 was the easier game I think the opposite would be more apparent. I'm not saying SC2 is a "harder" game but its definitely a "different" game. You are joking right ? The only players that gets better at BW by playing SC2 is the players that have never actually played BW competitively . On the other hand a D+/C- level iccup player can easily be a high ranked diamond league player if he practised his builds and timing just a little . BTW For the Record Idra actually just did he best yet as far as OSL qualifiers and we all know he's been playing ALOT less sc1 lately...to say the least. I think Sc2 forces better decision making and/or scouting then Sc1. Are you serious ? Are you trying to say Idra beat Gorush because he played SC2 ? If Sc2 makes you better at SC1 why aren't all the SC1 progamers playing SC2 to improve at SC1 ? This doesn't make any sense. I think Idra came to this qualifiers with no pressure, so he just came relaxed and confident and did great. And anyway even if I am wrong about Idra, you only gave one case and tried to generalize. As someone just said, just look at all these iccup Ds that are on top of their diamond leagues... Who cares if a D rank is #1 in diamond? so are all the C's B's And A's! We have WOW players in the beta for crying out loud and there are hundreds of leagues at this point. The Skill Gap is still very easy to notice between good players and Great players and It not hard to tell the the skill ceiling has not even come close to being reached. Sc2 is a Different Game It not fair to call it a Worst game or even a "Easier" game at this point. SC2 is objectively easier though. MBS, auto-mining etc. makes the game a ton easier for everyone. The argument shouldn't be "Is SC2 easier than SC1?" but rather "Will SC2 have as high a skill level as SC1 did?" which only time will tell. True enough...The Macro has gotten a little easier but the choices you make have gotten harder IMO. I'm sure everyone agree thats scouting in Sc2 in much more important than scouting in BW. I Do Hope to see the skill ceiling pushed as high as BW has been pushed.
I agree. in BW the mechanics are harder to manage skillwise but in SC2 you have more decisions to make.
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Words cannot describe how I will feel watching Flash play terran in a SC2 OSL.
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Blizzard wants SC2 to become the next big thing so they can receive hefty payment for the use of their games by various Esport leagues, just like they do currently with world of warcraft.
The problem here is that Blizzard is driven primarily by profit margins these days, and not actually by delivering the highest quality product to the consumer. You can argue against it all you want but wow and sc2 are living proof. 3 campaigns? Micro-transactions? Bling bling... Bnet having chat? Nope... LAN features? Nope....
For e-sports to expand long term companies are going to have to step up and build games specifically designed for e-sport competitive lans/settings.
Right now blizzard's hold on the market is too strong and I wouldn't be surprised to see a hasty switch to sc2 just because there is a lot of money to be made by hyping it up and milking it.
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DNWKALDNKWNAFNIGAW
If this will indeed be the last BW OSL I will boycott SC2. 
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well thats stupid since sc2 atm is shit....
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EPT
