I'm a zerg player and i have trouble playing terran on this map. I just wanted to say that when sc1 lost temple terran could just easily drop tanks on the cliff of the natural and easily kill the expansion of the zerg player. Zerg players usually had to hold out til his muta arive, but in sc2 its takes way longer to make the spire and by then he would already have 2 tanks up there with a thor/ vikings or some sort of anti air. Usually after that they hold their main with a tank.

Kespa easily fix this problem with no cliffs and made python. I just think this map needs to be change a little bit. Sorry if this sound like some rage rant but i'm just wondering if u guys had the same problem. I know i can just mark this map and not play on it that much but i still enjoy the zvz and zvp on the map.

EliteAzn

United States661 Posts

June 02 2010 20:35 GMT

early zergling/baneling bust >> teching terran

Cheezy

Sweden112 Posts

June 02 2010 20:35 GMT

Blizzard maps are horrible. we know.

blabber

United States4448 Posts

June 02 2010 20:35 GMT

I think a better solution is researching overlord drop/speed at both your hatcheries. Thing about mutas is that if they get a single thor all your mutas are dead

charlie420247

United States692 Posts

June 02 2010 20:35 GMT

you can get ovie drops hella fast in sc2. i wish zerg had a way to cliff jump like terran and toss do with tier 1 units. (stalker, reaper)

charlie420247

United States692 Posts

June 02 2010 20:36 GMT

ya listen to blabber but dont forget mid-game you can still pwn meching terrans with heavy mutas like 10+ by sheer harrassment and severly limiting there tank production.

ShoeFactory

United States186 Posts

June 02 2010 20:37 GMT

you can do quick mutas or OL drop to beat this.

As zerg, LT is one of my favorite maps. There's a lot of room to fight in the middle of the map.

getSome[703]

United States753 Posts

June 02 2010 20:39 GMT

A map isn't automatically not good for sc2 because you have problems dealing with tank drops. Post replays so your play can be critiqued. On a side not I've seen players build spine crawlers around the cliff and get vision with an overlord to stall.

Xeken

United States77 Posts

June 02 2010 20:40 GMT

Spire build time was decreased (120>100). Lair tech time was also decreased (100>80). Likewise for T's buildings, the relative teching time is similar. So no it doesn't take way longer to make the spire.

In SC2, you also have the option of getting a nydus and setting up base on the cliff well before they get there (Getting it well before either ventral sac or spire). The quickest type of drop requires them to show their hand, so you should be able to scout it easily. If they want to hide it more, then you should be able to scout it with a quick overseer, and still react in time (not to mention overseer can buy you 30 seconds).

Is thor/tank drop on cliff a pain to deal with? Yes.

Is it a legitimate problem? No.

Amnesia

United States3818 Posts

June 02 2010 20:41 GMT

#10

On June 03 2010 05:35 Cheezy wrote:
Blizzard is horrible. we know.

Fixed.

blabber

United States4448 Posts

June 02 2010 20:41 GMT

#11

My main problem with LT is the ability to drop on those little platforms in the middle of the map

bITt.mAN

Switzerland3693 Posts

June 02 2010 20:42 GMT

#12

Ny Ny Ny NYDUSS

With one on your cliff (and ovies shitting creep of course) and one at your macro-rally area, if you ever get attacked -> run in some roaches

Alternately, if you want some fun get vie drop and drop a few lings on the cliff -> burrow. If they tank-drop, unburrow and have teh funsies

MoreFaSho

United States1427 Posts

June 02 2010 20:42 GMT

#13

Depends on the location, but there are also a few goods spots for a spine crawler and then just have an overlord to spot the cliff. Some terran players are learning to bring a viking too which can make this very tough as it takes reasonably effectively micro mutas to kill a thor (spread them out so they don't all get splashed) although i did have a player bring a second medivac with 4 marines and it was REALLY tough. I think the important thing is to be aggressively scouting with overlords and having something ready to counter. If you see them going thor, get an early nydus worm and ling their mineral line when you see the drop coming. They've commited a lot to getting fast medivac/siege tank, it's not free. I do agree this is tough, but I would much rather play against terran on lost temple than kulas revene. That map substantially favors terran.

I don't like the post title. It's a tough map, but it's overall a pretty cool map and I think zerg has some advantages on that map too like being able to take the xel'naga watch towers with lings (1/2 food) instead of needing to use scvs (I'm a zerg player fyi).

Stropheum

United States1124 Posts

June 02 2010 20:47 GMT

#14

This is why we wait for user published ladder maps

CharlieMurphy

United States22895 Posts

June 02 2010 20:47 GMT

#15

On June 03 2010 05:35 blabber wrote:
I think a better solution is researching overlord drop/speed at both your hatcheries. Thing about mutas is that if they get a single thor all your mutas are dead

patch 14 FTW!

+ Show Spoiler +

speed now cost double

blabber

United States4448 Posts

June 02 2010 20:47 GMT

#16

On June 03 2010 05:42 bITt.mAN wrote:
Ny Ny Ny NYDUSS

With one on your cliff (and ovies shitting creep of course) and one at your macro-rally area, if you ever get attacked -> run in some roaches

Alternately, if you want some fun get vie drop and drop a few lings on the cliff -> burrow. If they tank-drop, unburrow and have teh funsies

IMO overlord drop is much better because it has much more usage later in the game.

So you make a nydus worm at your natural's cliff (and spend 100/100 to make it after spending 100/200 for the Nydus Network). It will be useful for only a short amount of time, and you spend almost the same amount of resources.

On June 03 2010 05:47 CharlieMurphy wrote:

Show nested quote +

patch 14 FTW!

+ Show Spoiler +

speed now cost double

50/50 was actually quite cheap in my eyes so 100/100 isn't that big a deal (still cheaper than BW)

scph

Korea (South)262 Posts

June 02 2010 20:51 GMT

#17

Most terran who do this will have a viking to kill off visioning overlords so it's best to not rely on spine crawlers. Mutas even with expand builds don't take THAT long, you just need to work on your mechanics. Study Sen's ZvT fast gas style. Seige and Thor actually don't come that quick and cheap.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104154
Day[9]'s daily 125.

Logo

United States7542 Posts

June 02 2010 20:51 GMT

#18

There's a weird mentality around here about maps maybe someone can explain it to me. People take a map like LT and go, oh it's Terran biased and Blizzard sucks at making maps lol.

At the same time they're not really paying attention to the state of the game compared to BW. SC2 is still in a state of flux, things are still being balanced and shaped out. So rather than just saying it's a map issue, Blizzard can say it's a racial issue lets try to balance it out.

If you don't iron out these issues it's something we're stuck with forever. You might never be able to have a balanced map with a cliff over the natural or a map with no good 3rd expansion. Given that the game is in beta it's perfectly reasonable for Blizzard to try and put some balance in how each race can handle a map.

We already see this in SC2s design, the faster drop/mobility options for Zerg help to deal with cliff drops. Instead of being a completely imba tactic cliff drops are now a calculated risk. Quite a few players have lost ZvT games precisely BECAUSE they went for a quick cliff drop leaving their main open to attack.

So before you go blasting Blizzard maps or things like that think about which is better for the game, design maps around this imbalance, or changing the races so it's something that's valid to have in a map design.