StarCraft II Beta -- Patch 14 (version 0.16.0.15580)
The latest patch notes can always be found on the StarCraft II Beta General Discussion forum. Balance Changes
PROTOSS
Archon Build time decreased from 17 to 12.
TERRAN
Viking Ground damage decreased from 14 to 12.
ZERG
Corruptor Corruption energy cost decreased from 100 to 75.
Infestor Burrowed move speed increased from 1 to 2. Peristalsis upgrade removed.
Overlord/Overseer Pneumatized Carapace cost increased from 50/50 to 100/100.
Overseer Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100.
Roach Organic Carapace upgrade removed. Tunneling Claws now also increases burrowed regeneration rate from 5 to 10.
Ultralisk Anabolic Synthesis upgrade removed. Health increased from 450 to 500. Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Bug Fixes
Map Publishing: the default Battle.net host now points to the correct server. Time Expiration notices that were added for testing of the Guest Pass functionality have been removed. Fixed a crash when trying to open an old replay by double-clicking it in Explorer. Fixed a bug where Ultralisk splash damage was not being properly reduced against armored units.
According to a user Magus from battle.net forums who tested the new patch using the build order tester map, some more Zerg changes are:
Ultralisk health is now 500 from 450 Ultralisk speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk speed is now fast by default. Overseer's Infested Terrans now cost 100 energy instead of 125. Roach Regen upgrade removed Infestor Burrow speed upgrade removed
On June 02 2010 05:10 Sputty wrote: If repair cost is the same as build cost(it seems to be) they made ghosts 100/200 and siege tanks 150/125(very minor tank change)
StarCraft II Beta -- Patch 14 (version 0.16.0.15580)
The latest patch notes can always be found on the StarCraft II Beta General Discussion forum.
Balance Changes
* PROTOSS o Archon + Build time decreased from 17 to 12.
* TERRAN o Viking + Ground damage decreased from 14 to 12.
* ZERG o Corruptor + Corruption energy cost decreased from 100 to 75.
o Infestor + Burrowed move speed increased from 1 to 2. + Peristalsis upgrade removed.
o Overlord/Overseer + Pneumatized Carapace cost increased from 50/50 to 100/100.
o Overseer + Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100.
o Roach + Organic Carapace upgrade removed. + Tunneling Claws now also increases burrowed regeneration rate from 5 to 10.
o Ultralisk + Anabolic Synthesis upgrade removed. + Health increased from 450 to 500. + Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Bug Fixes
* Map Publishing: the default Battle.net host now points to the correct server. * Time Expiration notices that were added for testing of the Guest Pass functionality have been removed. * Fixed a crash when trying to open an old replay by double-clicking it in Explorer. * Fixed a bug where Ultralisk splash damage was not being properly reduced against armored units.
EDIT: At least, I think so. Vikings were OP before, I thought. Archons fit more into their role as an emergency merge unit. And all of the changes to Zerg are spectacular. Mass overseer in 4v4 is going to be even more fun now.
Well, I for one feel so much happier knowing I can make Archons faster. Now I can get them in the fight to let them die faster too! Thank you Blizzard,
While I appreciate archons being significantly faster to build, with their current state of usefulness that just means that they will die five seconds faster.
On June 02 2010 05:22 DoomFox wrote: I don't fully understand the numbers with the Ultralisk speed change. o Ultralisk + Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Someone said this is as fast as a zergling. Does this mean the Ultralisk is as fast as a default zergling or the speedling?
default, off-creep zergling. also known as queen on-creep speed, i believe
First Protoss buff of all the patches? Great, now I just know that when Blizzard releases patch notes it will say something like, "Probe: Mining efficiency cut by 50%"
Oooh nice. The Archon change seems meaningless, but it should at least make them more feasible to use in battle after spending templar energy. Whenever I see a Protoss form archons in battle, they're always done AFTER the battle ends so you can just pick them off.
Ultralisk buffs... yay, 110 saved on getting ultras out is pretty huge, not to mention the resource cost. +50 hp probably isn't enough, but it's a start.
On June 02 2010 05:19 asdfTT123 wrote: LOL! Decreased Archon warp time by 5 seconds? That's the last buff that P needs. Thanks Blizzard for an amazing job well done, as always. -_-
Considering they took the ultralisk in the direction that TL has been wanting it to be in, I think blizzard did a pretty good job.
this was a balance change mainly for TvZ and PvZ. You can tell b/c the viking change is to shift roles of vikings a bit, and obviously archons are now imba with the +5 seconds... obviously.....QQ
but this patch was mainly geared for tvz imo to deal with mech better. We'll see if it works!
On June 02 2010 05:22 Chill wrote: Why is it 2.9531? Does Blizzard really need accuracy to 4 decimal places?
I believe this is the speed they set some melee units to to let them chase workers. I believe it is unupgraded off-creep ling speed, for instance. So yeah they found a number that worked and it happens to be 4 decimals long, haha
I'm really afraid about the fact that blizzard will definitely not change their pathetic zergs spell (fenzy, corruptors ability, infested terran) and instead of that will just try to make mino changes, hoping that players will finally use them, but unfortunately it will never happen and thoses spell will just stay as useless as they are Blizzard are definitely not capable of repairing their mistakes, corruptor infestor and overseer NEED new ability, not just useless minor changes.
But ultralisk changes go into the good direction for once, even if im pretty sure it won't be enough to make them playable, maybe in patch 15 ?
I'm not sure if all the minor buffs zerg received make up for the 50 extra gas for overlord speed. The biggest buff to zerg this patch may have been the damage reduction on the viking ground attack...
On June 02 2010 05:22 Chill wrote: Why is it 2.9531? Does Blizzard really need accuracy to 4 decimal places?
I believe this is the speed they set some melee units to to let them chase workers. I believe it is unupgraded off-creep ling speed, for instance. So yeah they found a number that worked and it happens to be 4 decimals long, haha
I get that, but you're telling me 2.95 doesn't work? REALLY?
On June 02 2010 05:22 Chill wrote: Why is it 2.9531? Does Blizzard really need accuracy to 4 decimal places?
61/64 = 0.953125
edit: the technical reason why we need a power of 2: + Show Spoiler +
To be more specific, 2.95 does not have an exact representation in finite precision floating point arithmetic because the number is binary when in the computer. If the denominator is a power of 2, however, the number can be represented exactly. You'll accumulate roundoff error over time because you are adding 2.95+error to itself every timestep. It's probably not a big deal; most likely it would just give your hydralisk has an unnoticeably small random variation in speed, but it might lead to weird collision detection bugs so it's best to just remove the ambiguity and work in powers of 2.
Real-world example of when counting time in a base-10 increment instead of a base-2 increment caused roundoff error that made a Patriot Missile system fail during the Gulf War: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RoundoffError.html
On June 02 2010 05:22 Chill wrote: Why is it 2.9531? Does Blizzard really need accuracy to 4 decimal places?
I believe this is the speed they set some melee units to to let them chase workers. I believe it is unupgraded off-creep ling speed, for instance. So yeah they found a number that worked and it happens to be 4 decimals long, haha
I get that, but you're telling me 2.95 doesn't work? REALLY?
Could be! After all those lings just barely keep up with the workers as it is
This is an excellent patch! Fast Ultras, as well as more bulky than before...awesome. The Roach buff is actually quite important, as now Roach pushes can be even more powerful.
I'm glad they're at least TRYING to buff the Archon. Now you can use up your dead-weight Templars quicker on the battlefield. The Overlord change is actually nice, so there are less dirt-cheap upgrades in the game. Infested Terran change is pretty nice, although not exactly the right thing. Peristalsis being removed is really just reducing an annoyance, if anything.
Oh, and Viking ground being nerfed = expected. They were too powerful on the ground to really be considered as JUST AA.
...Wait...Where's the Protoss nerf? THERE IS NONE. THIS IS FAKE!
Overseer Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100.
absolutely necessary change, thank god for this buff
game breaker imo
Actually it's potentially useful in some remote hypothetical sense. Being able to take 3 overseers and spawn 6 ITs has a lot more impact than those same 3 overseers spawning 3 ITs and having 75 energy left over.
Sooo they kept Roaches at 2 supply and buffed their upgrades slightly? I don't like this at all. zvz will continue to be all about ling/bling I guess...
Decent change on the Ultralisk, at least it won't take ages before you can actually make some of those.
On June 02 2010 05:22 DoomFox wrote: I don't fully understand the numbers with the Ultralisk speed change. o Ultralisk + Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Someone said this is as fast as a zergling. Does this mean the Ultralisk is as fast as a default zergling or the speedling?
speed doesnt change the fact Cows cant walk over ling and are as such, still useless
On June 02 2010 05:22 Chill wrote: Why is it 2.9531? Does Blizzard really need accuracy to 4 decimal places?
I believe this is the speed they set some melee units to to let them chase workers. I believe it is unupgraded off-creep ling speed, for instance. So yeah they found a number that worked and it happens to be 4 decimals long, haha
I get that, but you're telling me 2.95 doesn't work? REALLY?
The problem is that ultralisks take a year and a month to tech. I like the changes, I just don't see games going that long. They haven't so far (a vast majority of the time), why should they post patch 14?
Thor and tanks and colossi and immortals are produced and a part of a composition much sooner than a zerg manages a comfortable tier 3. Unless the zerg bullets to t3, which just isn't viable.
Overlord/Overseer Pneumatized Carapace cost increased from 50/50 to 100/100.
Makes me a little sad, I liked fast Overlord speed...
I think it's a good thing. Although I don't like paying more for it now, I always thought there isn't really a decision behind getting the upgrade or not getting it because it was just so cheap. Now you have to think more about spending 100 gas. There was just no reason not to get it before.
These changes seem more to affect PvZ, to be honest. Roach regeneration was particularly useful against a protoss using HT. Ultras having the speed upgrade innately will help make them useful much quicker against stalker/collosus.
Overseer Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100.
I rolled my eyes so hard.
silly blizzard, just take the ability of the game. im sure it will be cool for single player, just please... take the hint, this ability is and always has been garbage.
yay ! a bit of hope for roaches! and overspeed is a bit harder to get now but that makes alot of sense i guess.. hopefully drop will get lowered to 150 150 to compensate
Wow, most of these changes seem resonable, indeed. I still dislike those warcraftish abilities like the new corruption, though. Hope they will remove them sometime instead of trying to buff them.
Overseer Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100.
absolutely necessary change, thank god for this buff
game breaker imo
Actually it's potentially useful in some remote hypothetical sense. Being able to take 3 overseers and spawn 6 ITs has a lot more impact than those same 3 overseers spawning 3 ITs and having 75 energy left over.
yep definitely a game breaker 3 more infested terran = might as well GG right now
Nice changes :D. Though I was expecting some kind of siege tank nerf >< or something specific to help Z vs mech, maybe thor AA nerf. Ah well, I really like these changes.
Would anybody agree that the increase to overlord speed cost simply adds more and more disadvantages for Zergs scouting abilities when compared to the other races? And no, I am not going to "just get an overseer" first, as somebody in a chat told me that costs more... - _ -
On June 02 2010 05:28 Wr3k wrote: Nice changes :D. Though I was expecting some kind of siege tank nerf >< or something specific to help Z vs mech, maybe thor AA nerf ><
finally ultralisk gets a speed buff that helps it survive against ranged units. I'm very excited about the roach/infestor changes too. These might help zerg survive against mech long enough to get ultra, which now seems like it's an effective late-game answer to mech
Yay ... Zerg are even more powerful now? Even though they are only minor changes, adding the infested Terran to a flying spy was a mistake to begin with IMO. Making that kind of harrass even cheaper only worsens that decision.
On June 02 2010 05:22 DoomFox wrote: I don't fully understand the numbers with the Ultralisk speed change. o Ultralisk + Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Someone said this is as fast as a zergling. Does this mean the Ultralisk is as fast as a default zergling or the speedling?
speed doesnt change the fact Cows cant walk over ling and are as such, still useless
maybe people need to learn using more than 1a and should use 1a+2a and flank?
On June 02 2010 05:28 Wr3k wrote: Nice changes :D. Though I was expecting some kind of siege tank nerf >< or something specific to help Z vs mech, maybe thor AA nerf. Ah well, I really like these changes.
Protoss needs help in this regard as well, vikings rule the air, while tanks rule the ground, it's very difficult to deal with.
Too bad its still unplayable for me, crashes to desktop constantly. Started with patch 13 and continues with patch 14, worked like a charm prior to that so it isn't my system that needs tweaking =\
On June 02 2010 05:28 QueueQueue wrote: Even as a T player, I was glad to see the ultralisk buffs. Starting in the right direction to making the unit more viable.
Kind of an odd nerf to vikings; but I don't think it's going to make that much of a difference.
Of course you would be happy to see this Ultra change - there will be more Zergs feeding Ultras to your Marauders now. MAYBE they will be ok against mech, but I would assume that they only have a place in zvp if at all.
On June 02 2010 05:22 DoomFox wrote: I don't fully understand the numbers with the Ultralisk speed change. o Ultralisk + Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Someone said this is as fast as a zergling. Does this mean the Ultralisk is as fast as a default zergling or the speedling?
speed doesnt change the fact Cows cant walk over ling and are as such, still useless
Then zerg will need to position ultras and lings so that lings aren't in front. I wouldn't want my roaches to start the battle behind the hydralisks, that would be silly.
Hopefully this made some adjustments to black mini-map issue as well as Blank friends list. Overall decent balance, curious to see if speed change has any bearing on people actually using Ultra.
Zergs were whining about the roach vs roach in zvz. Now they whine about ling/bling vs ling/bling. What do you guys actually want? In tvt it is tank/viking vs tank/viking and if you make something else, you die.
Finally some zerg buffs come into fruition! (I primarly play protoss, but felt that zerg was a bit weaker in the ZvT MU)
This is an overall good patch, nothing too drastic, and nothing too meaningless and without just. If they patch like this all the time, I feel like the Blizzard flaming will cease a little .
Ok so they fixed, or at least attempted to, the Terran mech vs Zerg push. Very good start I think, next up I'm sure they'll do PvT sillyness....the Viking thing is a bit of a nerf to help out Colossi I think, so it swings it a little bit towards that in favor.
Seems like this patch didn't address anything. ZvT mech is pretty much the same as before. Ultras are gonna be useless still, roaches still cost 2 food, and tanks still destroy everything in sight.
What's more sad is that this will probably be the last balance patch for the beta.
Anyone know if this fixed the black mini-map bug in-game or for watching replays? I haven't been able to watch replays since patch 13 because of the black mini-map bug.
On June 02 2010 05:22 DoomFox wrote: I don't fully understand the numbers with the Ultralisk speed change. o Ultralisk + Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Someone said this is as fast as a zergling. Does this mean the Ultralisk is as fast as a default zergling or the speedling?
speed doesnt change the fact Cows cant walk over ling and are as such, still useless
Then zerg will need to position ultras and lings so that lings aren't in front. I wouldn't want my roaches to start the battle behind the hydralisks, that would be silly.
Pssst if you are smart you put the lings to the side and swing around with them to cut off retreat. or use 4 lings for every ultralisk wide the choke you plan on fighting in. ultras can attack from behind a single layer of lings.
On June 02 2010 05:32 finalboss wrote: Ok so they fixed, or at least attempted to, the Terran mech vs Zerg push. Very good start I think, next up I'm sure they'll do PvT sillyness....the Viking thing is a bit of a nerf to help out Colossi I think, so it swings it a little bit towards that in favor.
On June 02 2010 05:22 Chill wrote: Why is it 2.9531? Does Blizzard really need accuracy to 4 decimal places?
I believe this is the speed they set some melee units to to let them chase workers. I believe it is unupgraded off-creep ling speed, for instance. So yeah they found a number that worked and it happens to be 4 decimals long, haha
I get that, but you're telling me 2.95 doesn't work? REALLY?
Actually, i think it's because they used a mathematical algorithm to get the numbers. Like a certain %% of some other basic number in relationship to a ratio or something.
On June 02 2010 05:32 lew wrote: Zergs were whining about the roach vs roach in zvz. Now they whine about ling/bling vs ling/bling. What do you guys actually want? In tvt it is tank/viking vs tank/viking and if you make something else, you die.
yep and toss feels like "colossus wars" or "find the void ray" right now.
Oh, wow, I totally forgot to mention how they should take a look at the Marauder. A GOOD look at the Marauder. A REALLY good look. Then, they should look us straight in the eye and say, "we're not going to make any changes"
I honestly don't think any type of Ultra buff will mean anything until they change the Marauder. It's a step in the right direction, though (albeit a small step)
Its a small patch. There hasn't been once decent Protoss change since beta started though, I would like to see something done more to archons and maybe cast range of the PSI Storm increased.
On June 02 2010 05:32 AssuredVacancy wrote: Seems like this patch didn't address anything. ZvT mech is pretty much the same as before. Ultras are gonna be useless still, roaches still cost 2 food, and tanks still destroy everything in sight.
What's more sad is that this will probably be the last balance patch for the beta.
On June 02 2010 05:22 DoomFox wrote: I don't fully understand the numbers with the Ultralisk speed change. o Ultralisk + Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Someone said this is as fast as a zergling. Does this mean the Ultralisk is as fast as a default zergling or the speedling?
speed doesnt change the fact Cows cant walk over ling and are as such, still useless
Then zerg will need to position ultras and lings so that lings aren't in front. I wouldn't want my roaches to start the battle behind the hydralisks, that would be silly.
On June 02 2010 05:32 finalboss wrote: Ok so they fixed, or at least attempted to, the Terran mech vs Zerg push. Very good start I think, next up I'm sure they'll do PvT sillyness....the Viking thing is a bit of a nerf to help out Colossi I think, so it swings it a little bit towards that in favor.
Ground damage bro
It takes viking 4 shot to kill a worker now instead of 3
I think the most important changes here are the upgrade combos for zerg. Having to do like eleventy billion upgrades for roaches and ultras to be effective really sucked. This is exactly what TL was asking for.
@ people saying the corruptor's ability is useless, you are dumb. No offense. It's not exciting to watch like dark swarm, but 25% more damage against like 10 units in their army (ie, colossus). Yes please. Why would you not use it?
Frenzy, on the other hand, is silly. Why do that when you can fungal growth? MMM ball trying to micro away from the ultras? FG, problem solved.
I have actually used ultras in a game or two in top diamond league play and they sucked less than I thought. This can only help.
TvP is still broken. As protoss, you can't ever retreat if you engage. Marauders will just slow you down and fuck up your army.Right now, TvP is like playing TvP in BW but you can't use arbiters and terran wraiths own your carriers and vultures slow your units to a crawl.
On June 02 2010 05:34 shiftY803 wrote: @ people saying the corruptor's ability is useless, you are dumb. No offense. It's not exciting to watch like dark swarm, but 25% more damage against like 10 units in their army (ie, colossus). Yes please. Why would you not use it?
On June 02 2010 05:32 lew wrote: Zergs were whining about the roach vs roach in zvz. Now they whine about ling/bling vs ling/bling. What do you guys actually want? In tvt it is tank/viking vs tank/viking and if you make something else, you die.
Something that involves more than 1 base or lasts longer than 5 minutes? Roach vs Roach sucks, but it probably wasn't as bad as ling/bling as the games would go longer.
Right now a single mis-click will cost you the entire game. Imagine if you were playing ZvT with no wall in and nothing, but marines. More or less that's what ZvZ feels like.
It's actually kinda fun sometimes, but it's also very shallow strategically.
On June 02 2010 05:22 Chill wrote: Why is it 2.9531? Does Blizzard really need accuracy to 4 decimal places?
61/64 = 0.953125
To be more specific, 2.95 does not have an exact representation in finite precision floating point arithmetic because the number is binary when in the computer. If the denominator is a power of 2, however, the number can be represented exactly. You'll accumulate roundoff error over time because you are adding 2.95+error to itself every timestep. It's probably not a big deal; most likely it would just give your hydralisk has an unnoticeably small random variation in speed, but it might lead to weird collision detection bugs so it's best to just remove the ambiguity and work in powers of 2.
Real-world example of when counting time in a base-10 increment instead of a base-2 increment caused roundoff error that made a Patriot Missile system fail during the Gulf War: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RoundoffError.html
On June 02 2010 05:34 hacpee wrote: TvP is still broken. As protoss, you can't ever retreat if you engage. Marauders will just slow you down and fuck up your army.Right now, TvP is like playing TvP in BW but you can't use arbiters and terran wraiths own your carriers and vultures slow your units to a crawl.
I've been saying this for the past few patches.
But ZvT is screwed up right now too so I guess we can expect something major in phase 2?
They do't understand that they need to size down the ultralisk! or it will never be usable in game.. (not so difficult to make..is just the same thing they made to thor
On June 02 2010 05:34 hacpee wrote: TvP is still broken. As protoss, you can't ever retreat if you engage. Marauders will just slow you down and fuck up your army.Right now, TvP is like playing TvP in BW but you can't use arbiters and terran wraiths own your carriers and vultures slow your units to a crawl.
Forcefield can certainly minimize losses when retreating :>
On June 02 2010 05:35 teamsolid wrote: How exactly does this change ZvT mech at all? Vikings ground attack has never been important, it's the tanks/thors that are the problem.
roach/infestor are now better, making burrowed roaches more effective, and making it easier to position infestors for NP'ing thors.
However the main change is that ultralisk is now viable late-game against mech:
-health buff + speed buff makes it easier to close the gap against tanks without dying -ultra now require 1 less upgrade to be useful, which means they can come out faster
On June 02 2010 05:37 Tone_ wrote: Archon build time decreased! Finally I'll be able to use archons in every build, brb gonna make post on strategy forum.....
yeah typically you got the speed ultra upgrade as soon as the den popped and then started making them, and started the armor upgrade while building the second wave of ultras.
Hmm, don't really see were this is going to be honest.
The Archonbuff is just.. meh? They just suck and don't play a role in 99% of the Games, so it doesn't matter if they're builded a little bit faster..
and the Vikings? Nobody used them on the ground anyways, just for ecodrops, and then again it doesn't really matter if they fuck you're Ecoline with 14 or 12 dmg..
Its not that I think the Patch is total garbage, but Blizzard seems to have a great picture i'm clearly missing, because I don't see this Patch having any Impact at the current Game at all.
On June 02 2010 05:34 shiftY803 wrote: I think the most important changes here are the upgrade combos for zerg. Having to do like eleventy billion upgrades for roaches and ultras to be effective really sucked. This is exactly what TL was asking for.
@ people saying the corruptor's ability is useless, you are dumb. No offense. It's not exciting to watch like dark swarm, but 25% more damage against like 10 units in their army (ie, colossus). Yes please. Why would you not use it?
Frenzy, on the other hand, is silly. Why do that when you can fungal growth? MMM ball trying to micro away from the ultras? FG, problem solved.
I have actually used ultras in a game or two in top diamond league play and they sucked less than I thought. This can only help.
The problem is that the buffs they chose to remove were pretty much useless. Who actually got burrowed regen for roach after it was nerfed? I'm pretty sure having it now lair tech still doesn't change the fact that roaches are 2 supply. Peristalsis for infestors? I don't even remember a single game out of the 200ish I played as zerg where I felt the need to research it, nor do I remember a vod where someone researched it. Is having more movement speed while burrowed going to change the way they're used? I highly doubt it. Ultra ms was needed to be removed, but it doesn't change the fact that ultras are trash and no one will use them in a serious game now that they aren't even good against light units/less hp than before.
On June 02 2010 05:22 DoomFox wrote: I don't fully understand the numbers with the Ultralisk speed change. o Ultralisk + Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Someone said this is as fast as a zergling. Does this mean the Ultralisk is as fast as a default zergling or the speedling?
speed doesnt change the fact Cows cant walk over ling and are as such, still useless
maybe people need to learn using more than 1a and should use 1a+2a and flank?
As far as blizzard design the map, u cant always flank.
The major change that i've been looking for isn't here - removal of no "overkill" with tanks. If that's fixed, zvt becomes a LOT more balanced. Overall, though, this patch is pretty good. There isn't anything that i can really complain to much about.
On June 02 2010 05:34 shiftY803 wrote: @ people saying the corruptor's ability is useless, you are dumb. No offense. It's not exciting to watch like dark swarm, but 25% more damage against like 10 units in their army (ie, colossus). Yes please. Why would you not use it?
10 units? i thought it was just 1
When do you ever have just one corruptor? I build like 8-12 whenever a toss goes colossi-happy on me. You need to be able to mow them down before they kill your whole army.
On June 02 2010 05:39 BuLLFroG wrote: Hmm, don't really see were this is going to be honest.
The Archonbuff is just.. meh? They just suck and don't play a role in 99% of the Games, so it doesn't matter if they're builded a little bit faster..
and the Vikings? Nobody used them on the ground anyways, just for ecodrops, and then again it doesn't really matter if they fuck you're Ecoline with 14 or 12 dmg..
Its not that I think the Patch is total garbage, but Blizzard seems to have a great picture i'm clearly missing, because I don't see this Patch having any Impact at the current Game at all.
I have to say i like all of the changes, especially the roach change, it definitely will give them a more specialized commando aspect. Not to mention ultra buffs, for once. I would like to see a slight viking nerf to their actual air damage however, or a corrupter power increase...
Thats probably the first time I've seen the words terran and decreased beside eachother in a long time. Other than "terran - build time decreased" of course.
I'm a little disappointed that the speed buff for ultra was removed. I was hoping for base movement increase + speed buff for movement speed in the mid 3s.
On June 02 2010 05:34 shiftY803 wrote: @ people saying the corruptor's ability is useless, you are dumb. No offense. It's not exciting to watch like dark swarm, but 25% more damage against like 10 units in their army (ie, colossus). Yes please. Why would you not use it?
10 units? i thought it was just 1
When do you ever have just one corruptor? I build like 8-12 whenever a toss goes colossi-happy on me. You need to be able to mow them down before they kill your whole army.
my point is it's important to differentiate between the skill targetting 1 unit or targetting 10. targetting 10 individual units with ur corruptors takes more time and more dexterity than targetting 10 at once.
it also takes time to actually cast the spell. in general i laugh at corruptors. guys trying to corrupt my collossi, well they all die while they try to do it because the players aren't quick enough. sure, top players may be. but non-top players aren't at all.
I don't care if the skill is in the game though. If zerg players like it, great, props.
On June 02 2010 05:35 teamsolid wrote: How exactly does this change ZvT mech at all? Vikings ground attack has never been important, it's the tanks/thors that are the problem.
roach/infestor are now better, making burrowed roaches more effective, and making it easier to position infestors for NP'ing thors.
However the main change is that ultralisk is now viable late-game against mech:
-health buff + speed buff makes it easier to close the gap against tanks without dying -ultra now require 1 less upgrade to be useful, which means they can come out faster
hmmmm.... no. Ultra is still not viable against mech, Broodlords is still a 1000x better solution against mech. NP is a useless spell, your infestor will still die instantly as soon as you use it, if the player you play against isnt super bad. In fact I haven't seen infestors used for anything else than FG in any game involving 2 good players. Only time i have seen NP it was either complete failure or in a battle that have allready been won by zerg player.
Nothing will change with this patch, changes aren't bad the are just irrevelant.
On June 02 2010 05:35 teamsolid wrote: How exactly does this change ZvT mech at all? Vikings ground attack has never been important, it's the tanks/thors that are the problem.
roach/infestor are now better, making burrowed roaches more effective, and making it easier to position infestors for NP'ing thors.
However the main change is that ultralisk is now viable late-game against mech:
-health buff + speed buff makes it easier to close the gap against tanks without dying -ultra now require 1 less upgrade to be useful, which means they can come out faster
Increasing roach regen while burrowed barely makes them better, they're usually full HP while burrowed anyways. NP thors isn't very useful when siege tanks can still 1-shot them from 13 range after they start channeling. Also... 50 HP doesn't make ultras viable, it just makes them suck "slightly" less.
I'm guessing they want the counter to mech to be Roach + Infestor + Ultras.... then WHY did the fuck did they nerf roaches to 2 supply just 2 patches ago? They REDUCED our dependence on roaches and now they're trying to make us rely on them again?
The archon change is actually somewhat significant. In my experience the most common use is to storm once with each templar as a fight starts and then immediately begin morphing. 17 seconds typically gave you some archons after the entire rest of the army was dead...and simply made the enemy waste a few more shots popping them. They are actually quite good when there's just armies left after the big ball combat sorts itself out.
ok another nerf thanks blizz or are there zergs who actually use burrow/regen-move/unborrow mechanic? (especially infestor, i cant understand why infestor even need the ability to burrow at all, not to mention burrowed movement lol) i dont, so this patch is clearly nerf, now 100/100 insetad of 50/50. ok.
Ah yea, sorry, like it was mentioned that uberbuff to infested lolz0rs is clearly game breaking stuff, thanks blizz, we are happy now. :cool:
They may as well have never even introduced this patch, seeing as it didn't resolve a single real balance issue. Just some shallow shuffling around of upgrades/stats that will have almost no impact on gameplay. Well done blizzard, you really know how to make us ALMOST think that you care or know what you're doing.
How hard is it to make some terran changes. PvZ is more or less balanced, any kind of imbalance will only really be discovered after a real competitive scene has emerged (good accomplishment by the beta, should be the balance goal) but it's obvious to any random silver league scrub that TvP and TvZ are stupidly imbalanced.
On June 02 2010 05:35 teamsolid wrote: How exactly does this change ZvT mech at all? Vikings ground attack has never been important, it's the tanks/thors that are the problem.
roach/infestor are now better, making burrowed roaches more effective, and making it easier to position infestors for NP'ing thors.
However the main change is that ultralisk is now viable late-game against mech:
-health buff + speed buff makes it easier to close the gap against tanks without dying -ultra now require 1 less upgrade to be useful, which means they can come out faster
hmmmm.... no. Ultra is still not viable against mech, Broodlords is still a 1000x better solution against mech. NP is a useless spell, our infestor will still die instantly as soon as you use it, if the player you play against isnt super bad. In fact I haven't seen infestors used for anything else than NP in any game involving 2 good players. Only time i have seen NP it was either complete failure or in a battle that have allready been won by zerg player.
Nothing will change with this patch, changes aren't bad the are just irrevelant.
disagree, infestors have died because they weren't positioned correctly, now with good burrow micro they will be more used.
As for broodlords being better than ultra, well, that may have been true before, but I think with this patch ultra > broodlord against mech (good terrans will always have vikings ready in case of broodlords)
On June 02 2010 05:45 teamsolid wrote: Increasing roach regen while burrowed barely makes them better, they're usually full HP while burrowed anyways. NP thors isn't very useful when siege tanks can still 1-shot them from 13 range after they start channeling. Also... 50 HP doesn't make ultras viable, it just makes them suck "slightly" less.
You ignored the speed buff, which is the major reason why ultras are improved against tanks.
In response to some of the people on here, I think the reduction in research cost/time for roaches and ultras does actually help alot versus mech. Probably moreso than people think. Only testing will tell I guess.
Based on very limited testing, I feel ultras are better than people give them credit for. Now they are faster "out of the box," which makes them useful as soon as they are built. From my few games of using them, the biggest problem was that you HAD to research speed first to make them even halfway decent. Now you can just get +2 armor right away, which is pretty significant imo.
On June 02 2010 05:46 zergporn wrote: ok another nerf thanks blizz or are there zergs who actually use burrow/unborrow mechanic? (especially infestor, i cant understand why infestor even need the ability to burrow at all, not to mention burrowed movement lol) i dont, so this patch is clearly nerf, now 100/100 insetad of 50/50. ok.
Ah yea, sorry, like it was mentioned that uberbuff to infested lolz0rs is clearly game breaking stuff, thanks blizz, we are happy now. :cool:
where do you see a zerg nerf? maybe you should explain it...
edit
i understand now. you dont use units/techs of your race so every buff to them is non sense and every 50/50 upgrade that gets more expensive and that every idiot is upgrading (even if he doenst need it) is a nerf.
Overseer Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100.
Amazing change /SARCASM
God, this spell is just such a joke - it's almost like saying "hey we want this unit to have 3 abilites but we can't think of anything actually useful so here's something you'll never use".
Unfortuantely Liquipedia doesnt have the hard numbers on the default roch regen rate ...but from what i've been able to find is that it was +5hp/sec before the T3 upgrade and 15hp/sec after the upgrade ...so yay for another roach nerf
Any half decent terran will get a turret/raven when going mech anyway so those changes dont even touch TvZ problem. Oh ultralisk ... ROFL
Roach change seems cute but really when do roaches ever take much damage and live to tell the tale? Their main role at the moment is ram into mech armies and then dying. Maybe it'll encourage more roach aggression and small army play.
On June 02 2010 05:46 zergporn wrote: ok another nerf thanks blizz or are there zergs who actually use burrow/regen-move/unborrow mechanic? (especially infestor, i cant understand why infestor even need the ability to burrow at all, not to mention burrowed movement lol) i dont, so this patch is clearly nerf, now 100/100 insetad of 50/50. ok.
Ah yea, sorry, like it was mentioned that uberbuff to infested lolz0rs is clearly game breaking stuff, thanks blizz, we are happy now. :cool:
Wow... really? This post is especially aggravating since it came from a zerg player.
The overlord speed is indeed a bit of a nerf but I think it introduces an interesting element when it comes to tension with regards to overseer vs. speed.
Just because you don't use the abilities which they did buff doesn't mean you can disregard them. Maybe this is more reason to start burrowing your infestors.
On June 02 2010 05:35 teamsolid wrote: How exactly does this change ZvT mech at all? Vikings ground attack has never been important, it's the tanks/thors that are the problem.
roach/infestor are now better, making burrowed roaches more effective, and making it easier to position infestors for NP'ing thors.
However the main change is that ultralisk is now viable late-game against mech:
-health buff + speed buff makes it easier to close the gap against tanks without dying -ultra now require 1 less upgrade to be useful, which means they can come out faster
hmmmm.... no. Ultra is still not viable against mech, Broodlords is still a 1000x better solution against mech. NP is a useless spell, our infestor will still die instantly as soon as you use it, if the player you play against isnt super bad. In fact I haven't seen infestors used for anything else than NP in any game involving 2 good players. Only time i have seen NP it was either complete failure or in a battle that have allready been won by zerg player.
Nothing will change with this patch, changes aren't bad the are just irrevelant.
disagree, infestors have died because they weren't positioned correctly, now with good burrow micro they will be more used.
As for broodlords being better than ultra, well, that may have been true before, but I think with this patch ultra > broodlord against mech (good terrans will always have vikings ready in case of broodlords)
so no good players use infestor for NP just because they all dont know how to place their infestors ? Why do you mean 'with good burrow micro' ? cause i simply dont see what change about the fact that once you NP the thor/colossus your infestor having 9 range will be instantly killed by tanks/colossus ? plz show me a replay against a good terran/protoss player while using your 'good burrow micro' cause at the moment i simply dont see how its possible
I'm guessing Blizzard is going to test and work thoroughly on a big patch for "phase 2" of beta. So having a big patch right before the end of phase 1 doesn't make much sense.
On June 02 2010 05:49 Butcherski wrote: Unfortuantely Liquipedia doesnt have the hard numbers on the default roch regen rate ...but from what i've been able to find is that it was +5hp/sec before the T3 upgrade and 15hp/sec after the upgrade ...so yay for another roach nerf
Any half decent terran will get a turret/raven when going mech anyway so those changes dont even touch TvZ problem. Oh ultralisk ... ROFL
no the OC upgrade increased the regen rate TO 10/hp sec, so it was +5 hp/sec by default, then the OC upgrade raised by an additional +5 hp/sec, bringing it to +10 hp/sec.
Basically this patch took the OC upgrade and put it on the tunneling claws upgrade for free.
With the infestor speed upgrade they can keep up with an army while burrowed better. This means an opposing player won't have a BIG FLASHING SIGN (aka the giant infestor unit size) pre battle that they are there. So an infestor can pop up mid battle and get the FG/NP off rather than being an obvious first target. It also helps strength infestor harassing play. Don't forget that FG does some serious damage to workers, 2 FGs will kill SCVs and can decimate a mineral lie.
On June 02 2010 05:35 teamsolid wrote: How exactly does this change ZvT mech at all? Vikings ground attack has never been important, it's the tanks/thors that are the problem.
roach/infestor are now better, making burrowed roaches more effective, and making it easier to position infestors for NP'ing thors.
However the main change is that ultralisk is now viable late-game against mech:
-health buff + speed buff makes it easier to close the gap against tanks without dying -ultra now require 1 less upgrade to be useful, which means they can come out faster
hmmmm.... no. Ultra is still not viable against mech, Broodlords is still a 1000x better solution against mech. NP is a useless spell, our infestor will still die instantly as soon as you use it, if the player you play against isnt super bad. In fact I haven't seen infestors used for anything else than NP in any game involving 2 good players. Only time i have seen NP it was either complete failure or in a battle that have allready been won by zerg player.
Nothing will change with this patch, changes aren't bad the are just irrevelant.
disagree, infestors have died because they weren't positioned correctly, now with good burrow micro they will be more used.
As for broodlords being better than ultra, well, that may have been true before, but I think with this patch ultra > broodlord against mech (good terrans will always have vikings ready in case of broodlords)
so no good players use infestor for NP just because they all dont know how to place their infestors ? Why do you mean 'with good burrow micro' ? cause i simply dont see what change about the fact that once you NP the thor/colossus your infestor having 9 range will be instantly killed by tanks/colossus ? plz show me a replay against a good terran/protoss player while using your 'good burrow micro' cause at the moment i simply dont see how its possible
Players use NP all the time vs Thors and to a lesser extent tanks. I was watching Sheth vs QXC (I think that was the series) yesterday and Sheth landed 4 NPs in a single battle.
On June 02 2010 05:47 BlasiuS wrote: disagree, infestors have died because they weren't positioned correctly, now with good burrow micro they will be more used.
As for broodlords being better than ultra, well, that may have been true before, but I think with this patch ultra > broodlord against mech (good terrans will always have vikings ready in case of broodlords)
A good Z will always be able to outproduce a T's viking count with corruptors (assuming Z has more bases = higher gas income) and add infestors for fungal growth if needed. I'd say the Z is actually favored if the game goes into the late game w/Z on a solid economy, but the problem is reaching that stage.
On June 02 2010 05:53 EleanorRIgby wrote: so much idiot complainers that haven't even tested the changes out in game already jumping to retarded conclusions, please just stop.
don't need to test it to figure out whats gonna change... after patch13 everybody said that ultralisks changes were BS before testing it and guess what ?.... after testing it, same conclusion
On June 02 2010 05:35 teamsolid wrote: How exactly does this change ZvT mech at all? Vikings ground attack has never been important, it's the tanks/thors that are the problem.
roach/infestor are now better, making burrowed roaches more effective, and making it easier to position infestors for NP'ing thors.
However the main change is that ultralisk is now viable late-game against mech:
-health buff + speed buff makes it easier to close the gap against tanks without dying -ultra now require 1 less upgrade to be useful, which means they can come out faster
hmmmm.... no. Ultra is still not viable against mech, Broodlords is still a 1000x better solution against mech. NP is a useless spell, our infestor will still die instantly as soon as you use it, if the player you play against isnt super bad. In fact I haven't seen infestors used for anything else than NP in any game involving 2 good players. Only time i have seen NP it was either complete failure or in a battle that have allready been won by zerg player.
Nothing will change with this patch, changes aren't bad the are just irrevelant.
disagree, infestors have died because they weren't positioned correctly, now with good burrow micro they will be more used.
As for broodlords being better than ultra, well, that may have been true before, but I think with this patch ultra > broodlord against mech (good terrans will always have vikings ready in case of broodlords)
so no good players use infestor for NP just because they all dont know how to place their infestors ? Why do you mean 'with good burrow micro' ? cause i simply dont see what change about the fact that once you NP the thor/colossus your infestor having 9 range will be instantly killed by tanks/colossus ? plz show me a replay against a good terran/protoss player while using your 'good burrow micro' cause at the moment i simply dont see how its possible
well seeing as how the patch hasn't even been out an hour, I don't have any good burrow micro replays yet -_-
On June 02 2010 05:47 BlasiuS wrote: disagree, infestors have died because they weren't positioned correctly, now with good burrow micro they will be more used.
As for broodlords being better than ultra, well, that may have been true before, but I think with this patch ultra > broodlord against mech (good terrans will always have vikings ready in case of broodlords)
A good Z will always be able to outproduce a T's viking count with corruptors (assuming Z has more bases = higher gas income) and add infestors for fungal growth if needed. I'd say the Z is actually favored if the game goes into the late game w/Z on a solid economy, but the problem is reaching that stage.
vikings hard counter corruptors, even with FG, and they have longer range, so you can't beat vikings using only corruptors + FG
I look forward to more aggressive Infestor play like TLO demonstrated against Loner on Blistering Sands. It seems like Blizzard also envisage the overseer being used in small packs a bit like Maka does with his ravens (the autoturret drop), dropping infested terrans on an unguarded worker line and/or shutting down important buildings before moving out to safety again.
On June 02 2010 05:50 kNyTTyM wrote: Roach change seems cute but really when do roaches ever take much damage and live to tell the tale? Their main role at the moment is ram into mech armies and then dying. Maybe it'll encourage more roach aggression and small army play.
exactly! i can't understand the logic behind that whole mechanic of roach burrow regen stuff. It's just some sort of absurd. Why i should burrow/move-behind(?) unit that is supposed to take damage letting poor hydralisks behind deal damage a bit longer.
Hmm. Perhaps we will start seeing some old fashioned Zerg transitions from light speedlings -> rush to muta harass -> ling/ultra/infestor against Terran?
On June 02 2010 05:49 Butcherski wrote: Unfortuantely Liquipedia doesnt have the hard numbers on the default roch regen rate ...but from what i've been able to find is that it was +5hp/sec before the T3 upgrade and 15hp/sec after the upgrade ...so yay for another roach nerf
Any half decent terran will get a turret/raven when going mech anyway so those changes dont even touch TvZ problem. Oh ultralisk ... ROFL
Using unit tester on pre-patch roaches 5 hp/sec seems like the correct number for normal regen. And with the upgrade they had 3 times faster regen.
It's a nerf if you were getting the tier3 upgrade, but in most cases it's a buff since you'll get half of it with a more useful tier 2 upgrade.
On June 02 2010 05:35 teamsolid wrote: How exactly does this change ZvT mech at all? Vikings ground attack has never been important, it's the tanks/thors that are the problem.
roach/infestor are now better, making burrowed roaches more effective, and making it easier to position infestors for NP'ing thors.
However the main change is that ultralisk is now viable late-game against mech:
-health buff + speed buff makes it easier to close the gap against tanks without dying -ultra now require 1 less upgrade to be useful, which means they can come out faster
hmmmm.... no. Ultra is still not viable against mech, Broodlords is still a 1000x better solution against mech. NP is a useless spell, our infestor will still die instantly as soon as you use it, if the player you play against isnt super bad. In fact I haven't seen infestors used for anything else than NP in any game involving 2 good players. Only time i have seen NP it was either complete failure or in a battle that have allready been won by zerg player.
Nothing will change with this patch, changes aren't bad the are just irrevelant.
disagree, infestors have died because they weren't positioned correctly, now with good burrow micro they will be more used.
As for broodlords being better than ultra, well, that may have been true before, but I think with this patch ultra > broodlord against mech (good terrans will always have vikings ready in case of broodlords)
so no good players use infestor for NP just because they all dont know how to place their infestors ? Why do you mean 'with good burrow micro' ? cause i simply dont see what change about the fact that once you NP the thor/colossus your infestor having 9 range will be instantly killed by tanks/colossus ? plz show me a replay against a good terran/protoss player while using your 'good burrow micro' cause at the moment i simply dont see how its possible
well seeing as how the patch hasn't even been out an hour yet, I don't have any good burrow micro replays yet -_-
Nothing stopped you from having burrow micro before this patch. If burrowing with infestors was actually a useful thing to do, you would do it before, speed or not. The truth is it's pretty much non existent.
On June 02 2010 05:35 teamsolid wrote: How exactly does this change ZvT mech at all? Vikings ground attack has never been important, it's the tanks/thors that are the problem.
roach/infestor are now better, making burrowed roaches more effective, and making it easier to position infestors for NP'ing thors.
However the main change is that ultralisk is now viable late-game against mech:
-health buff + speed buff makes it easier to close the gap against tanks without dying -ultra now require 1 less upgrade to be useful, which means they can come out faster
hmmmm.... no. Ultra is still not viable against mech, Broodlords is still a 1000x better solution against mech. NP is a useless spell, our infestor will still die instantly as soon as you use it, if the player you play against isnt super bad. In fact I haven't seen infestors used for anything else than NP in any game involving 2 good players. Only time i have seen NP it was either complete failure or in a battle that have allready been won by zerg player.
Nothing will change with this patch, changes aren't bad the are just irrevelant.
disagree, infestors have died because they weren't positioned correctly, now with good burrow micro they will be more used.
As for broodlords being better than ultra, well, that may have been true before, but I think with this patch ultra > broodlord against mech (good terrans will always have vikings ready in case of broodlords)
so no good players use infestor for NP just because they all dont know how to place their infestors ? Why do you mean 'with good burrow micro' ? cause i simply dont see what change about the fact that once you NP the thor/colossus your infestor having 9 range will be instantly killed by tanks/colossus ? plz show me a replay against a good terran/protoss player while using your 'good burrow micro' cause at the moment i simply dont see how its possible
well seeing as how the patch hasn't even been out an hour yet, I don't have any good burrow micro replays yet -_-
Nothing stopped you from having burrow micro before this patch. If burrowing with infestors was actually a useful thing to do, you would do it before, speed or not. The truth is it's pretty much non existent.
On June 02 2010 05:52 Schryver wrote: they didn't fix the menu audio bug?
It wasn't a bug--they just turned off menu sounds as part of prep for retail. (Don't ask me why--I can't fathom it either.) But the menu audio is supposedly back now.
On June 02 2010 05:56 BlasiuS wrote: vikings hard counter corruptors, even with FG, and they have longer range, so you can't beat vikings using only corruptors + FG
All I can say to this is lol. Stop theorycrafting and actually play the game or watch ZvT replays.
I think Dimaga used "good burrow micro" against some Protoss. The roach health regen upgrade is great against a Protoss using heavy storms. Otherwise, I don't think it ever found much use.
I like these changes. As a P/T player I always think "hurray, free win" when I go against Z. I still think Archons need a substantial splash boost and the radius on storm should be increased.
On June 02 2010 05:56 BlasiuS wrote: vikings hard counter corruptors, even with FG, and they have longer range, so you can't beat vikings using only corruptors + FG
All I can say to this is lol. Stop theorycrafting and actually play the game or watch ZvT replays.
it's already been proven, take your own advice lol
Obviously nothing really big changed, and yes the game does need some bigger changes than these, but for the most part these changes are all in the right direction.
Wonderful patch: The fast ultras right off the bat is just what the zerg doctor ordered. I also like that they reduced the massive amount of upgrades from the roach and the infestor. Still hope that templar tech will be buffed in the future. It's just not viable as an opening tech right now. They should get rid of the Dark Shrine entirely.
The Viking’s damage has been reduced to make them a little less effective on the ground. Massed Vikings were a little too powerful in a few late game scenarios. Vikings have also become very dominant in terran vs. terran matches and we are testing to see if a small damage reduction will make some other units more viable.
.... The viking is dominating TvT because it gives you complete control of the air + map, and if you have air dominance your tanks can see further than his tanks.
It's not like vikings beat marauders or tanks on the ground anyway -.-
As long as it doesn't ruin my viking opening tvz for scrap station I'm ok with it - -
Archon- Build time decreased from 17 to 12.
Archons can now merge a little faster so “mid battle merges” will be a little bit more practical.
Ultralisk- Anabolic Synthesis upgrade removed. - Health increased from 450 to 500.- Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Ultralisks have been buffed to include their speed upgrade as by default and to give them a little more endurance in big fights. This may or may not be enough to get the Ultralisk ultimately where we want him to be. We will continue testing going forward.
Sounds good for both.
Infestor- Burrowed move speed increased from 1 to 2.- Peristalsis upgrade removed. Roach- Organic Carapace upgrade removed.- Tunneling Claws now also increases burrowed regeneration rate from 5 to 10.
There are many different upgrades on the zerg, the Roach and the Infestor both had three upgrades. We are reducing and combining these upgrades so the units get a little bit more powerful or so that you have to buy fewer upgrades to complete your units. We have also reduced the cost of several energy abilities on the Zerg that didn’t see a lot of use. We will continue to monitor these abilities moving forward.
Well the Infestor change seems good at least, can't tell what the roach change will do exactly.
PROTOSS Archon Build time decreased from 17 to 12.
Who the hell uses archon anyway? Give us something useful like a MS that actually lives up to its name, a carrier that doesnt tickle the opponent, hell give us the reaver back. As a toss player this really annoys me. They either nerf toss or boost stuff that nobody uses by making it just as useless
TERRAN Viking Ground damage decreased from 14 to 12.
again who cares about its gnd dmg? How about toning down the ridiculous air range 9?
ZERG
Corruptor Corruption energy cost decreased from 100 to 75.
Infestor Burrowed move speed increased from 1 to 2. Peristalsis upgrade removed.
Overlord/Overseer Pneumatized Carapace cost increased from 50/50 to 100/100.
Overseer Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100.
Roach Organic Carapace upgrade removed. Tunneling Claws now also increases burrowed regeneration rate from 5 to 10.
Ultralisk Anabolic Synthesis upgrade removed. Health increased from 450 to 500. Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Sounds all good for zerg. They take some stuff out but boost up others so its good. I like how the Ultra boost sounds, cant wait to see it used in a game to see if its actually useful.
Nice zerg changes. Ultras will still suffer from ling-blockades and general pathing issues. Lets hope they reduce the model size in a future patch like they did for the Thor.
Roach, well, better than before. With upgrades these things can be annoying to deal with if the zerg players is up to some burrow micro.
ZvT still has some issues with mech armies, although I believe Blizz is trying to get the Ultra to fill that role. However, the Ultra comes out with the Brood Lord and between those to there is no competition when dealing with tanks now is there?
I have my doubts that the ultralisk buffs will be enough. I was seeing groups of 9 ultralisks do almost no damage before dying to terran mech. The speed change and an extra 50 health isn't going to change it THAT much.
On June 02 2010 05:59 koppik wrote: I think Dimaga used "good burrow micro" against some Protoss. The roach health regen upgrade is great against a Protoss using heavy storms. Otherwise, I don't think it ever found much use.
Yep, Cool also used burrow to great effect in his first game with Maka in the 17173 semi final. Freedom used it a lot in the vods on that site also to manoeuvre past force-field spam and keep dealing damage, and he caught DeMusliM beautifully with it on Steppes of War during their Stars War Reborn Invitational match.
Here's a way to make Archons usable - give them stun ability from SCBW dark archons, or, alternatively, change their attack type from frontal aoe to 2 simultaneous single target (or low-count aoe) lightnings or something of the sort.
On June 02 2010 05:59 koppik wrote: I think Dimaga used "good burrow micro" against some Protoss. The roach health regen upgrade is great against a Protoss using heavy storms. Otherwise, I don't think it ever found much use.
I can remember only two public games since patch 10 where Dimaga tried to use roach micro in zvp, both he lost. If i recall correctly maps were Incineration and Kulas. Idra however showed some roach-micro ownage on LT, but he was dominating...
On June 02 2010 05:59 koppik wrote: I think Dimaga used "good burrow micro" against some Protoss. The roach health regen upgrade is great against a Protoss using heavy storms. Otherwise, I don't think it ever found much use.
I can remember only two public games since patch 10 where Dimaga tried to use roach micro in zvp, both he lost. If i recall correctly maps were Incineration and Kulas. Idra however showed some roach-micro ownage on LT, but he was dominating...
Burrow micro isn't A MUST. It's a plus since you're more likely to get it now since you infestors move twice as fast while burrowed and roaches get fast regen AT THE SAME TIME with burrow movement... how sick is that?
This patch is a great step in the right direction. ALL of these changes are good. Even the archon change is good, blizzard has already said they want to keep the archon as a last resort my army is being overrun and my high templar have no energy option so the decreased build time fits that role better. It still needs more buffs, but again, it's a step in the right direction.
On June 02 2010 06:10 link0 wrote: Great, now vikings are even more 1-dimensional.
Interesting that this is what should be the last patch until hiatus. Don' think they can fit another one in less than 6 days.
And if they stick with their plans to have beta back for 2 weeks before release, we will probably see one more patch and that's it, and I doubt it will be anything huge with so little time left.
So balancewise, this is very close to what we'll be seeing in the retail version, guys! Overall it's not so bad, but there are a few things that I still want to see changed (Mothership, archons, probably some nerf to stop that annoying 4 warpgate rush that every P is using)
For some reason, Blizzard removed "Fixed a bug where Ultralisk splash damage was not being properly reduced against armored units." from their patch notes... Why?
On June 02 2010 06:10 link0 wrote: Great, now vikings are even more 1-dimensional. At least make them transform faster.
To say such a minor damage nerf results in them now being one-dimensional is outright wrong. This damage nerf is not going to alter the methods in which they are used at all.
lots of bad zerg upgs removed in favor of just having the increased whatever. overlord speed being 2x the cost i'm split about. on one hand it was almost always a no brainer to research very soon after lair was done, as well, this will make comitting to overseer harass more expensive. I do think that post-upg overseer movement should be faster though, at least able to outrun stalkers...
On June 02 2010 06:04 Attica wrote: I have my doubts that the ultralisk buffs will be enough. I was seeing groups of 9 ultralisks do almost no damage before dying to terran mech. The speed change and an extra 50 health isn't going to change it THAT much.
ITT: People who didn't know that they could transform their Vikings after eliminating the air threat, people who don't micro their Roaches, people who think these are actually nerfs, and people who never find themselves with empty HTs.
Then there are the other people who actually have good feedback.
People should understand that these patches aren't meant to be an overnight complete re-balancing. They're supposed to be gradual steps towards the ultimate goal. If you guys look back to the first day of beta, you'd probably understand that these patches are actually working. These are all gradual changes meant to prepare the game for more changes. It's much easier to slowly inch forward than it is to push all the way forward, then pull back and hope you guess when to stop.
I honestly think this is one of the best patches; it's up there with the one that nerfed WG.
...Yeah, I know, not many people are actually complaining. Just trying to stop said people from starting ^_^
oh yeah, i'm really gonna use infested terrans now like every game ! -_-; I don't get it... why can't blizzard see that this unit is slow, has small range, small damage, cost 100 energy and lasts for ~ 13 real seconds ?
On June 02 2010 06:19 decemvrie wrote: oh yeah, i'm really gonna use infested terrans now like every game ! -_-; I don't get it... why can't blizzard see that this unit is slow, has small range, small damage, cost 100 energy and lasts for ~ 13 real seconds ?
are you INSANE ?
So what are you doing with that energy that is so much more important? Yes, it's probably not something that is going to be used very much, but stop acting like it actually matters much. And it actually out dps a roach, so it's not completely useless.
I wouldn't underestimate this roach buff as of yet - burrowed movement shields them from all damage until they get into detection range, and then they have a greater ability to tank shots until they get into range with their improved regen. Not a game breaking change, but enough (I think) for burrowed roaches to become more standard.
WOW. Ultras.... I tested it out in the map editor, and they're STARTING to feel as beefy as they used to. The speed bonus + the 500 hp buys them JUST enough time to deal the damage they were meant to deal. I tested 6 fully upgraded thors + 10 helions, + 12 tanks vs 16 frenzied ultralisks. The results? I had 4 ultralisks left, and I was also target firing with the thor's cannons (at full energy).
Still probably won't be able to break a terran's nat filled with bunkers and tanks on the ridges, but... you'll certainly get close.
On June 02 2010 06:19 decemvrie wrote: oh yeah, i'm really gonna use infested terrans now like every game ! -_-; I don't get it... why can't blizzard see that this unit is slow, has small range, small damage, cost 100 energy and lasts for ~ 13 real seconds ?
are you INSANE ?
So what are you doing with that energy that is so much more important? Yes, it's probably not something that is going to be used very much, but stop acting like it actually matters much. And it actually out dps a roach, so it's not completely useless.
On June 02 2010 05:57 AssuredVacancy wrote: Nothing stopped you from having burrow micro before this patch. If burrowing with infestors was actually a useful thing to do, you would do it before, speed or not. The truth is it's pretty much non existent.
Not necessarily. Burrow was very useful in BW and was still rarely exploited to its full potential.
On June 02 2010 05:57 AssuredVacancy wrote: Nothing stopped you from having burrow micro before this patch. If burrowing with infestors was actually a useful thing to do, you would do it before, speed or not. The truth is it's pretty much non existent.
Not necessarily. Burrow was very useful in BW and was still rarely exploited to its full potential.
Well, SC1 units didn't have 10 HP per second regeneration
On June 02 2010 06:27 Warrior Madness wrote: WOW. Ultras.... I tested it out in the map editor, and they're STARTING to feel as beefy as they used to. The speed bonus + the 500 hp buys them JUST enough time to deal the damage they were meant to deal. I tested 6 fully upgraded thors + 10 helions, + 12 tanks vs 16 frenzied ultralisks. The results? I had 4 ultralisks left, and I was also target firing with the thor's cannons (at full energy).
Still probably won't be able to break a terran's nat filled with bunkers and tanks on the ridges, but... you'll certainly get close.
Personally I think ultras were never beefy at all, and in fact the first incarnation of ultras in sc2 were still stronger than sc1's ultras. The only difference is there is no dark swarm in sc2. However, I think i might start trying some ultra drop antics, it seems like it might work well.
On June 02 2010 05:22 Percutio wrote: First Protoss buff of all the patches? Great, now I just know that when Blizzard releases patch notes it will say something like, "Probe: Mining efficiency cut by 50%"
Pheonix attack while moving change was clearly a nerf, then?
On June 02 2010 06:19 decemvrie wrote: oh yeah, i'm really gonna use infested terrans now like every game ! -_-; I don't get it... why can't blizzard see that this unit is slow, has small range, small damage, cost 100 energy and lasts for ~ 13 real seconds ?
are you INSANE ?
who freaking cares. it's just a cute little harass, it's not meant to be game-changing.
i think this patch is really good. it's nothing flashy. just little nudges further in the right direction. the only 'problem units' they didn't touch are the fleet beacon units and honestly i don't expect that to change drastically until an expansion - it's such a tech commitment that i don't think people will get around to experimenting with it seriously for a looong time.
On June 02 2010 06:15 KsBerzerk wrote: Why is there still no sound at the startup menu? ...
Because its not a bug. They stated that sound effects for menus will not be available till after the hiatus. Something about upgrading their audio system...weird I know, but thats that.
On June 02 2010 06:22 Perfect Balance wrote: As far as im concerned, these changed are irrelevant. Are they even testing it before realeasing these patches?
Any small amount of in-house testing is going to be irrelevant when compared to the massive amount of games that will get played by the community after the patch goes out.
As far as I'm concerned, in-house testing is only going to be good for knowing whether shit works, and if there's something OBVIOUSLY wrong (which, with such minor changes, there probably isn't).
And to you who are talking about needing a viking range nerf... are you kidding me?
Vikings are needed to balance out void rays and broodlords/corruptors. Theres actually some sort of balance there now. If vikings didnt have superier range, terran would have no chance...
The only drawback with the unit is in TvT where as of now the air control all depends on the vikings.
Those uppgrades fusions are welcome for zergs. Ultralisk base speed is now the same as old uppgraded speed? It would be a free uppgrade since Anabolic Synthesis is removed.
I don't know if the viking nerf is right, I have never seen those "late game issues" .
People whining about archon change, keep in mind that for blizzard, the archon is just a spell of the high templar to use when they are out of mana (i read this on bnet forum somewhere). With this point of view, the archon's buff is good.
If they don't want to make a useful infested terran spell, they should just remove it from the game.
On June 02 2010 06:47 HubertFelix wrote: Good patch
Those uppgrades fusions are welcome for zergs. Ultralisk base speed is now the same as old uppgraded speed? It would be a free uppgrade since Anabolic Synthesis is removed.
I don't know if the viking nerf is right, I have never seen those "late game issues" .
People whining about archon change, keep in mind that for blizzard, the archon is just a spell of the high templar to use when they are out of mana (i read this on bnet forum somewhere). With this point of view, the archon's buff is good.
no, the archon spell would be "just a spell" if it could actually DO anything and didn't get owned by every other unit in the game....lol
I keep getting the feeling that blizzard's too conservative to change something drastic even though its beta. IE why not implement the lurker for a week just to collect balancing data from millions of games? I mean it is a beta after all. It just seems like a lot (not saying all of them) of these changes are just changing numbers around.
I don't play Protoss, though I do wish the neglected units (ie, Archons, Carriers, Mothership) should get more significant changes to them to make them more useful. Maybe they can explore more with the "Hardened Shield" mechanic on these higher tier units (though definitely the amount of shields would have to be cut, or perhaps even have two layers of shielding if possible). Then, along with more usage, we might even see BattleCruisers being used more in PvT with their Yamato upgrade. Though I imagine there have to be some changes to corrupter damage to compensate for the extra defense.
All in all, a nice patch though. Definitely moving in the right direction overall.
Doesn't really say anything important, and I am pretty sure that their goals for the Viking will not be met. They already got destroyed by ground units before the patch; people won't make any less Vikings because of this.
On June 02 2010 06:52 Wire wrote: It's getting there. That roaches are being fixed for being so underpowered after the 2 supply upgrade is a step in the right direction.
It's the WRONG direction. Stronger roaches at 2 supply means less larva cost per roach, which means that larva management is extremely reduced (it already was bad, it's worse now). It means that zerg isn't "The Swarm" anymore. Roaches should be balanced in the opposite way: 1 supply and some other nerf. 110-120 HP 2 armor would be awesome as it is a nerf in zvp and zvt, and a slight (needed) buff in zvz.
The first expansion is supposed to be called "Heart of the Swarm". The Swarm is supposed to feel swarmy.
On June 02 2010 06:48 Surrealz wrote: no, the archon spell would be "just a spell" if it could actually DO anything and didn't get owned by every other unit in the game....lol
Archons are quite good against zergs if you consider them as a "free unit" ie you make them during fights. The problem is that archons were finished after the end of the fights... I don't know if 12 seconds is a good number but it's the good way to buff them.
I'm looking forward to trying out this patch's Ultras, but, then again, I've been with disappointed every change to them thus far, so this probably won't be any different. =[
On June 02 2010 06:39 DorF wrote: this did ....nothing
Agreed, there isn't a big noticable difference except the ultralisk's speed, they are so rarely used that its minuscule
Comments like this are so uneducated it's hilarious.
"Buffing unit X is useless because no one uses it anyway" - uhh, I think that's precisely WHY they're buffing it.
And thinking that these changes are not going to affect anything is very ignorant. Adding upgrade abilities straight into a base unit is a pretty massive buff.
pretty decent patch I gotta say archon change is definitely good, wouldnt have minded some real nerf to terran but maybe I just have to improve as a player. In a way I dislike how they removed the roach upgrade because now hive has even less options but at least the ultra is a real, strong option now and this roach buff might just have been what it needed to make up for the 2 supply. Plus it makes the roach's specialty a bit stronger, making it a more interesting unit.
So yeah balance wise I think blizzard did a good job here, lets hope they didnt make b.net 2.0 worse again.
Well, seems they are finally done with the roach upgrade. First a huge nerf, then only burrowed. Perhaps good they gave it to a lair upgrade... but even less reason to go hive eh? Now its just t3 upgrades and broodlords, way to go... give something interesting for t3!
Ultralisk +speed isnt going to fix anything of it, any damn small tiny unit, be it lings will interrupt it. And for a matter of fact.. the headbutt attack of the ultralisk does less damage against buildings than its kaiser blades! How is that properly adjusted :/
Corruptor -energy, who cares.. its only useful against huge units like thors, battlecruisers and stuff... Infested terran, so what 125->100 energy? it shouldve been 50!
Big meh. Only roach upgrade seems decent.. but I think it will be removed again :/
they should've kept the speed upgrade with the ultralisk... and just increase their speed overall in general, anyone feel like they were still slow as shit before EVEN with the speed upgrade?
They're starting to pick up on what will make the ultralisk useful. While the more gradual changes are safer in making sure it doesn't come out overpowered, me thinks that health should be up there. If the ultralisk doesn't have the thick, monstrous durability it's always had, it just won't live up to it's name. I understand it has more HP than in SC1, but in SC2 high HP units die so quickly that I think the ultra needs just a bit more oomph to it.
On June 02 2010 07:00 MorroW wrote: man i wish they would change the model of ultra so they look like sc1 ultralisk instead of dinosaur :/ that would be a great buff^.^
The ultralisk in SC1 appears different than how they intended it to look because of the low resolution graphics at the time.
On June 02 2010 06:51 Alphaes wrote: I don't play Protoss, though I do wish the neglected units (ie, Archons, Carriers, Mothership) should get more significant changes to them to make them more useful. Maybe they can explore more with the "Hardened Shield" mechanic on these higher tier units (though definitely the amount of shields would have to be cut, or perhaps even have two layers of shielding if possible). Then, along with more usage, we might even see BattleCruisers being used more in PvT with their Yamato upgrade. Though I imagine there have to be some changes to corrupter damage to compensate for the extra defense.
All in all, a nice patch though. Definitely moving in the right direction overall.
On June 02 2010 06:52 spinesheath wrote: By the way, here's the situation report.
Doesn't really say anything important, and I am pretty sure that their goals for the Viking will not be met. They already got destroyed by ground units before the patch; people won't make any less Vikings because of this.
On June 02 2010 06:52 Wire wrote: It's getting there. That roaches are being fixed for being so underpowered after the 2 supply upgrade is a step in the right direction.
It's the WRONG direction. Stronger roaches at 2 supply means less larva cost per roach, which means that larva management is extremely reduced (it already was bad, it's worse now). It means that zerg isn't "The Swarm" anymore. Roaches should be balanced in the opposite way: 1 supply and some other nerf. 110-120 HP 2 armor would be awesome as it is a nerf in zvp and zvt, and a slight (needed) buff in zvz.
The first expansion is supposed to be called "Heart of the Swarm". The Swarm is supposed to feel swarmy.
personally i think nerfing hydras and moving them to tier1 and giving 2 armor back to roach and moving it to tier2 would be much wiser than what we have now. Zergs wouldn't have to desperatly rush to lair to prevent getting banshee/void raped ;o
Corruptor Corruption energy cost decreased from 100 to 75.
Infestor Burrowed move speed increased from 1 to 2. Peristalsis upgrade removed.
Overlord/Overseer Pneumatized Carapace cost increased from 50/50 to 100/100.
Overseer Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100.
Roach Organic Carapace upgrade removed. Tunneling Claws now also increases burrowed regeneration rate from 5 to 10.
Ultralisk Anabolic Synthesis upgrade removed. Health increased from 450 to 500. Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Corruption mana decreased, - Superminor. Emotional response; bah, meaningless. Wont really affect much, esp. since 1. its a unit you really try to avoid to build if you can since its so limited and 2. the spell is rarely useful either anyway, a 25 decrease in cost wont change that.
Burrow movespeed for infestior. - Superminor. Emotional response; bah, meaningless. Ive hardly seen anyone burrowmove infestors, mainly because they dont have any spells they can use to really harass. NP makes the infestor helpless and will autokill it if withouth support. I never got this upgrade before, and wont use it now.
Overlordspeed more expensive: - Big change. Emotional response; OK, expected. This was so cheap it was a nobrainer to get asap. Absolutely necessary upgrade that people will keep using even after this nerf, because its the only way for Z to get any decent scouting done.
Overseer IT-change - Super minoer. Emotional response; Lol. Absolutely nonsical. Meaningless spell really dosent get more meaningful because its cheaper to cast. They could still salvage the concept of ITs, for instance, no morphtime just let them land ready to go. More changes would be necessary but that one would make it more viable.
Roach tunneling claws- Medium. Emotional response: A bit sad, they are missing the point again. Cant decide if this is a buff or a nerf, you dont have to research it, but its only half as effective as before. But it dosent resolve the problems with the roach; its underpowered for its supply so you cant mass it lategame. Supply would be fine if it was more useful in smaller numbers.
Ultralisk changes - Medium. Emotional respons; a bit glad, its not enough but its a little better. The ultraliskchanges wont be enough. Fully upgraded ultras melted before, and will melt now, now its only a bit quicker to get those ultras fully upgraded. 50hp extra really wont do much diffrens imo.
This wont solve the TvZ problem and we will probably see more buffs for Z, or nerfs for T. (yeah right.. ) I propose the following change to make ZvT managable as Zerg: "Increase the time it takes for a siegetank to siege". I think that will solve alot of the problems, but not all.
I personally dont like the new spells; a spell that buffs or nerfs 1 unit really is meaningless in a game that mainly deals with clashes of greatnumber of units. I hope they remove them or make them AoE. As it is now, these spells fit better in WC3 that is much more micro-oriented.
On June 02 2010 06:14 e4e5nf3 wrote: Interesting that this is what should be the last patch until hiatus. Don' think they can fit another one in less than 6 days.
And if they stick with their plans to have beta back for 2 weeks before release, we will probably see one more patch and that's it, and I doubt it will be anything huge with so little time left.
So balancewise, this is very close to what we'll be seeing in the retail version, guys! Overall it's not so bad, but there are a few things that I still want to see changed (Mothership, archons, probably some nerf to stop that annoying 4 warpgate rush that every P is using)
nope. they stated that there probably will be a pretty huge day one patch.
On June 02 2010 06:51 Alphaes wrote: I don't play Protoss, though I do wish the neglected units (ie, Archons, Carriers, Mothership) should get more significant changes to them to make them more useful. Maybe they can explore more with the "Hardened Shield" mechanic on these higher tier units (though definitely the amount of shields would have to be cut, or perhaps even have two layers of shielding if possible). Then, along with more usage, we might even see BattleCruisers being used more in PvT with their Yamato upgrade. Though I imagine there have to be some changes to corrupter damage to compensate for the extra defense.
All in all, a nice patch though. Definitely moving in the right direction overall.
: O
i think you just fixed the mothership
against which unit though... void ray and corruptor are the only ones significantly exceeding the 10dmg/attack mark. all the other stuff dishes out multiple salvos.
Overseer IT-change - Super minoer. Emotional response; Lol. Absolutely nonsical. Meaningless spell really doesnt get more meaningful because its cheaper to cast.
it does get more meaningful because you can cast 2 ITs instead of just 1, making it more than twice as affective.
Also, i dont think its a meaningless spell to begin with. its basically a free unit you can use to kill workers. Now that you can spawn two, its even more dangerous.
I was actually hoping that they would make infestors move as fast as they do now underground, and keep the burrowed move speed upgrade, because super fast moving burrowed units that can pop up everywhere (if your opponent doesn't have detection) would be super awesome, and it would lead to frenzy being used in actually cool ways in ZvZ ("stop that infestor with my infestor using fungal growth!... OH CRAP IT FRENZIED ITSELF AND IS GETTING AWAY..." kind of thing), but this would probably be horribly imbalanced somehow, which just makes me a sad panda time.
I love all of the changes though, as a (possibly obviously) zerg player. I think the ultra changes are at least in the right direction if not exactly what it needed to become viable (still not happy that their one-molecule-wide kaiser blades don't do full splash damage, but whatever), and I actually like the overseer change too, since, as someone else mentioned, if you are mainly using them for detection/prevention of insta-banshee kill, then when they get up to full energy you can harass an expansion while nydusing their main or doom dropping or something else. I also think that people underestimate how awesome observer hunting with just an overseer is.
Corruptor Corruption energy cost decreased from 100 to 75.
Infestor Burrowed move speed increased from 1 to 2. Peristalsis upgrade removed.
Overlord/Overseer Pneumatized Carapace cost increased from 50/50 to 100/100.
Overseer Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100.
Roach Organic Carapace upgrade removed. Tunneling Claws now also increases burrowed regeneration rate from 5 to 10.
Ultralisk Anabolic Synthesis upgrade removed. Health increased from 450 to 500. Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Overlordspeed more expensive: - Big change. Emotional response; OK, expected. This was so cheap it was a nobrainer to get asap. Absolutely necessary upgrade that people will keep using even after this nerf, because its the only way for Z to get any decent scouting done.
Overseer IT-change - Super minoer. Emotional response; Lol. Absolutely nonsical. Meaningless spell really dosent get more meaningful because its cheaper to cast. They could still salvage the concept of ITs, for instance, no morphtime just let them land ready to go. More changes would be necessary but that one would make it more viable.
Those two things both have the effect of making overseers more viable. Perhaps Blizzard thought they weren't being utilised enough for their liking. Now it might be worth making a few overseers for scouting instead of getting overlord speed; if the opponent chooses not to utilise air-harass or you have air control yourself. You can scout with the overseers and then perhaps harass a little with them later.
One thing that I've liked to use is burrow-move infestors to get in and fungal growth a mineral line a few times. With enough FGs (not exactly sure how many, should probably find out...) it can absolutely dismantle and expansion. Just wondering if anyone else does this.
omg 25 less energy to get an infested terran. now i can rape all my friends with infested terran drops!
and to all who are saying, 'great now i can make 2 infested terrans per overseer' why would your overseers be sitting at 200 energy? why would the opponent not run his workers away from things that limp as slow as my grandma?
you know what would be cool? giving infested terrans splash dmg when they die so that they resemble something of the infested terrans we used to know in sc1.
really, after all the shitty things about BNet 2.0 + activision, Blizzard has found a way to honour their fans: this patch, overall, is balanced!!! thumb up for Blizz and
On June 02 2010 07:00 MorroW wrote: man i wish they would change the model of ultra so they look like sc1 ultralisk instead of dinosaur :/ that would be a great buff^.^
On June 02 2010 07:28 WirelessWaffle wrote: Did ultralisks have a range of 1 prior to the patch (enough to reach over zerglings) or has this been there the entire time and I just didn't notice?
Also, are workers not supposed to receive melee upgrades or is this a bug? -I had 2/2 carapace/melee in a game and noticed my drones were 2/0
It was always like that, workers don't get weapon upgrades.
On June 02 2010 07:35 NB wrote: really, after all the shitty things about BNet 2.0 + activision, Blizzard has found a way to honour their fans: this patch, overall, is balanced!!! thumb up for Blizz and
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- All I wanted was the map editor for mac, so i could use it during the downtime. Otherwise, i think the changes are pretty good, but not nearly substantial enough to make that much of a difference. Although i think that the two IT per overseer is actually a pretty good idea, and will make the free worker harass that much better.
On June 02 2010 05:28 Wr3k wrote: Nice changes :D. Though I was expecting some kind of siege tank nerf >< or something specific to help Z vs mech, maybe thor AA nerf. Ah well, I really like these changes.
Protoss needs help in this regard as well, vikings rule the air, while tanks rule the ground, it's very difficult to deal with.
Phoenix actually defeat both Vikings and Tanks handily. However the marine backbone is a bitch, and if Thors ever showed up in TvP they'd also kick Phoenix ass.
On June 02 2010 05:28 InfiniteIce wrote: Would anybody agree that the increase to overlord speed cost simply adds more and more disadvantages for Zergs scouting abilities when compared to the other races? And no, I am not going to "just get an overseer" first, as somebody in a chat told me that costs more... - _ -
Your FARMS can FLY, and you have the fastest ground unit in the game at tier 1.
On June 02 2010 05:32 lew wrote: Zergs were whining about the roach vs roach in zvz. Now they whine about ling/bling vs ling/bling. What do you guys actually want? In tvt it is tank/viking vs tank/viking and if you make something else, you die.
yep and toss feels like "colossus wars" or "find the void ray" right now.
Don't Phoenix punt Colossus and Void Rays? And pretty much every Protoss unit other than maybe Stalkers or hastily-applied Templar?
Maybe I need to watch more high level matches or something.
Overseer Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100.
Amazing change /SARCASM
God, this spell is just such a joke - it's almost like saying "hey we want this unit to have 3 abilites but we can't think of anything actually useful so here's something you'll never use".
Should just make its Corrupt Building ability spawn Infested Guys and be done with it.
I've encountered a bug in the new patch where my ladder record hasn't been bugged (I still see my division, record and rank) but my search screen is stuck at "4 games remaining" for placements and every time I play a new game it's a placement game and the number of games remaining stays at 4. Anyone else encountering a similar issue?
I'm a little concerned about the roach buff, since mass roach burrow surprises were very powerful already (slush style) and this is going to make them even more powerful... though I agree that 3 upgrades for the 1roach, one of which is the same as an infestor upgrade, is too much. I agree with posters saying that armor should be increased to 2, supply decreased to 1, but HP reduced by 30 or so is really the direction they should be going. Hell, reduce their hp by 60 or 70 and give them rapid above-ground regeneration to make them a cooler micro intensive unit.
I'm puzzled about the viking nerf. How often were we seeing landed vikings doing massive damage? They were certainly powerful with 14 damage, but every race has easily accessible hard counters to shut them down on the ground (hydra, immortal/stalker, maruaders). Clearly the main change is in TvT because vikings were bad on the ground in TvZ/TvP, but the problems in that matchup were due to the viking's insane air dominance rather than its assault mode potency (marauders own vikings on the ground).
On June 02 2010 05:22 DoomFox wrote: I don't fully understand the numbers with the Ultralisk speed change. o Ultralisk + Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
Someone said this is as fast as a zergling. Does this mean the Ultralisk is as fast as a default zergling or the speedling?
speed doesnt change the fact Cows cant walk over ling and are as such, still useless
Then zerg will need to position ultras and lings so that lings aren't in front. I wouldn't want my roaches to start the battle behind the hydralisks, that would be silly.
U obviously dont get the fact that Utras can not attack a target that is surrounded by lings. Has nothing to do with positioning.
Happy with patch (i guess I can be happy as protoss as there is a lack of nerfs for us?) I hated how long archons took to merge although with the state of templar tech tree right now I doubt it will make any difference. I really wish the dark shrine would just be taken out and dark templar be made an upgrade at the templar archive.... The ultralisk is looking better and I hope to see some more burrowed roach play from zerg now!
On June 02 2010 07:14 s031720 wrote: I personally dont like the new spells; a spell that buffs or nerfs 1 unit really is meaningless in a game that mainly deals with clashes of greatnumber of units. I hope they remove them or make them AoE. As it is now, these spells fit better in WC3 that is much more micro-oriented.
I agree. These spells just stink WC3. This is SC, for god's sake, who cares about one unit in an army? SC is about great numbers, wtf is up with spells that makes 1 unit easier to kill, 1 unit stronger, this is a war, this isn't a small camp battle, there is no hero here.
What really makes me angry is that instead of working with concepts and using these holes in the Z (these skills - corruption, frenzy and, bleh, infested terran), that nobody uses, and even if use, it isn't fun, it doesn't fit in the game, holy god THEY DON'T FIT... Instead of using this oportunity to bring some really cool stuff for Z they just sit around and "meh, let's just put some WC3 stuff and it'll be fine. If anything goes wrong, woa, we can just BALANCE the numbers and it'll be allright!".
I personally dont like the new spells; a spell that buffs or nerfs 1 unit really is meaningless in a game that mainly deals with clashes of greatnumber of units. I hope they remove them or make them AoE. As it is now, these spells fit better in WC3 that is much more micro-oriented.
weren't people complaining about there not being enough micro in SC2?
make up your mind folks
edit: as for archons, its not a useless buff, it makes them more likely to actually spawn before the battle is over now like they're supposed too
None of this will fix T mech vs zerg, so difficult to win - only way is to counter when T moves out with nydus or drop. tanks melt zerg so hard, blue flame helions rape drones like lurkers did to terran. Thors take down around 10 units each but an ultra will be lucky do 5 attacks. The extra 50 hp means it can sustain 1 extra shot from an immortal and a couple from a ruader and those are easier to get, make ultras T2 and maybe then they can become viable. Thors kill far more of zerg than an ultra does of terran and thors are easier to get, rax - fac- addon (cheap and can be built same time as armoury goes down). Zerg requires pool,lair,investor pit,hive,ultra den which must be built in a linear fashion and takes forever.
On June 02 2010 06:06 Go0g3n wrote: Here's a way to make Archons usable - give them stun ability from SCBW dark archons, or, alternatively, change their attack type from frontal aoe to 2 simultaneous single target (or low-count aoe) lightnings or something of the sort.
I like the second idea. It's 2010, there's no need for 32-bit zappin' animations. I want archons to poop lightning everywhere.
On June 02 2010 07:14 s031720 wrote: I personally dont like the new spells; a spell that buffs or nerfs 1 unit really is meaningless in a game that mainly deals with clashes of greatnumber of units. I hope they remove them or make them AoE. As it is now, these spells fit better in WC3 that is much more micro-oriented.
I agree. These spells just stink WC3. This is SC, for god's sake, who cares about one unit in an army? SC is about great numbers, wtf is up with spells that makes 1 unit easier to kill, 1 unit stronger, this is a war, this isn't a small camp battle, there is no hero here.
What really makes me angry is that instead of working with concepts and using these holes in the Z (these skills - corruption, frenzy and, bleh, infested terran), that nobody uses, and even if use, it isn't fun, it doesn't fit in the game, holy god THEY DON'T FIT... Instead of using this oportunity to bring some really cool stuff for Z they just sit around and "meh, let's just put some WC3 stuff and it'll be fine. If anything goes wrong, woa, we can just BALANCE the numbers and it'll be allright!".
Not that I entirely disagree with you, but I just want to give a few SC1 examples of single target spells: - Defensive matrix. - Restoration
On June 02 2010 07:14 s031720 wrote: I personally dont like the new spells; a spell that buffs or nerfs 1 unit really is meaningless in a game that mainly deals with clashes of greatnumber of units. I hope they remove them or make them AoE. As it is now, these spells fit better in WC3 that is much more micro-oriented.
I agree. These spells just stink WC3. This is SC, for god's sake, who cares about one unit in an army? SC is about great numbers, wtf is up with spells that makes 1 unit easier to kill, 1 unit stronger, this is a war, this isn't a small camp battle, there is no hero here.
What really makes me angry is that instead of working with concepts and using these holes in the Z (these skills - corruption, frenzy and, bleh, infested terran), that nobody uses, and even if use, it isn't fun, it doesn't fit in the game, holy god THEY DON'T FIT... Instead of using this oportunity to bring some really cool stuff for Z they just sit around and "meh, let's just put some WC3 stuff and it'll be fine. If anything goes wrong, woa, we can just BALANCE the numbers and it'll be allright!".
The puzzling thing isn't so much the single-target spells as their minor effects. Useful single-target spells generally ruin the target (Feedback, Mind Control/Irradiate/Neural Parasite, Yamato/Irradiate/Broodling, Lockdown) or provide a HUGE buff (D-matrix, although it cost somewhat more than it was generally worth). Graviton Beam is something of an oddball, but it does completely disable the target AND (potentially) expose it to greater damage.
Corrupt is just so minor. The Devourer had a more potent effect as a passive ability on its attack. And Frenzy isn't any better...
As a zerg player I feel this is a pretty good patch.
The Pneumatized Carapace cost increased from 50/50 to 100/100 kind of hurts. I think it should be at 75/75 since 50/50 was a joke and whenever I got lair I could get overlord speed for nothing.
Also I still wish the Infested Terran cost something like 75 energy; I mean seriously, the Infested Terran does not last long at all. Even if you drop them into the mineral line or something, all you have to do is move your workers away for like 5 seconds. =(
I personally dont like the new spells; a spell that buffs or nerfs 1 unit really is meaningless in a game that mainly deals with clashes of greatnumber of units. I hope they remove them or make them AoE. As it is now, these spells fit better in WC3 that is much more micro-oriented.
weren't people complaining about there not being enough micro in SC2?
make up your mind folks
it's a different kind of micro though. even then it's not the WC3-ness of a spell like frenzy that bothers me. it's that it's so generic. the unit just glows and starts spewing smoke or some shit and becomes more powerful, it's sooo warcraft/d&d/whatever generic fantasy. it's just not cool in the context of starcraft and it lacks imagination.
On June 02 2010 08:15 roymarthyup wrote: oh my god, now with 12 damage it takes a viking 4 hits to kill a 45 hp worker.
last patch it took a viking only 4 hits to kill a worker with its 14 damage.
damn, what a nerf!
Agreed, I haven't really seen many games where ground mode Vikings have had too much of an impact. Banshee's are probably the unit that needs the nerf, if any, probably make them slightly longer to build to help against Banshee rush.
On June 02 2010 07:14 s031720 wrote: I personally dont like the new spells; a spell that buffs or nerfs 1 unit really is meaningless in a game that mainly deals with clashes of greatnumber of units. I hope they remove them or make them AoE. As it is now, these spells fit better in WC3 that is much more micro-oriented.
I agree. These spells just stink WC3. This is SC, for god's sake, who cares about one unit in an army? SC is about great numbers, wtf is up with spells that makes 1 unit easier to kill, 1 unit stronger, this is a war, this isn't a small camp battle, there is no hero here.
What really makes me angry is that instead of working with concepts and using these holes in the Z (these skills - corruption, frenzy and, bleh, infested terran), that nobody uses, and even if use, it isn't fun, it doesn't fit in the game, holy god THEY DON'T FIT... Instead of using this oportunity to bring some really cool stuff for Z they just sit around and "meh, let's just put some WC3 stuff and it'll be fine. If anything goes wrong, woa, we can just BALANCE the numbers and it'll be allright!".
Not that I entirely disagree with you, but I just want to give a few SC1 examples of single target spells: - Defensive matrix. - Restoration
Restoration, I don't know why players don't use more, especially if their whole science vessel army gets plagued
On June 02 2010 05:10 -orb- wrote: sigh... waste of a patch.
No effective changes to toss
No one cared about viking's ground damage... it was the air damage that matters. How about like range 6 instead of the ridiculous range 9?
Zerg changes are meh
First of all, vikings range is 8 -- surprised you didnt know that. Second of all, its pretty obvious you are just mad you can't VR rush as effectively anymore, especially after the range nerf, and therefore viking range and damage is imba. You mad. Switch race or keep whining because honestly, although you are 'known' because of your stream, you won't be truly respected until you take a more objective look at the game.
wow nice changes until i read that ultralisk speed increased but the upgrade was removed. Paying 150/150 wasnt the issue it was even with the upgrade they are still so sluggish....
On June 02 2010 05:10 -orb- wrote: sigh... waste of a patch.
No effective changes to toss
No one cared about viking's ground damage... it was the air damage that matters. How about like range 6 instead of the ridiculous range 9?
Zerg changes are meh
With the utmost respect, if Viking range was reduced to 6, what would Terran have to counter Colossus and Void Rays. (Yes, I know there are other ways to counter void rays, but they all involve either making a push or giving up map control, as far as I know.)
On June 02 2010 08:33 SC2Phoenix wrote: wow nice changes until i read that ultralisk speed increased but the upgrade was removed. Paying 150/150 wasnt the issue it was even with the upgrade they are still so sluggish....
Oh ffs, zerg players pretty much unanimously said that the ultralisk should start with the speed upgrade because you needed the speed to make them useful and it took too long to get speed... now blizzard gives you exactly what you want (which might be deserved) and you complain that it's still not fast enough? Wtf do you want your ultras to be as fast as speed lings? gtfo.
I was thinking that if you used frenzy on roaches with the mechanic for burrow movement, you could potentially damage their economy greatly. I am not sure about this, but you might have enough energy left over for a fungal growth. This would greatly help with harassment.
On June 02 2010 05:10 -orb- wrote: sigh... waste of a patch.
No effective changes to toss
No one cared about viking's ground damage... it was the air damage that matters. How about like range 6 instead of the ridiculous range 9?
Zerg changes are meh
With the utmost respect, if Viking range was reduced to 6, what would Terran have to counter Colossus and Void Rays. (Yes, I know there are other ways to counter void rays, but they all involve either making a push or giving up map control, as far as I know.)
Well, here's my issues with the Viking/Void Ray dynamic:
1) Vikings outrange all of the Protoss' anti-Air units, so its easy for Terran to walk up to your front gate with Siege Tanks and establish a Siege when they're protected by Vikings. This also makes it impossible to protect your Collossi from Vikings when there are Siege Tanks nearby. Your Stalkers, Sentries and Void Rays can't get anywhere near to kill the Vikings when there's a blob of Marines, Marauders and/or Tanks nearby.
2) Fully-charged Void Rays utterly destroy Vikings, cost-for-cost, if they get too close.
3) Fully-charged, upgraded Void Rays raaaaaaaape Vikings, cost-for-cost, and there's not a damn thing the Terran can do about it except bring a buttload of Marines around with them (the Vikings can't kite, and the Void Rays get within range instantly, with the speed/acceleration upgrade and unequivocally rape them).
4) Uncharged Void Rays, speed upgrade or not, suck intergalactic space donkey dick against Vikings.
Because of this, all of my PvTs turn into "Distract him over here, send a wad of upgraded Void Rays into his base, charge up to full, wait for Vikings to arrive (without Marine backup), utterly rape them, then harass until victory". It feels so frigging lame, but its the only thing that seems to work for me. There just doesn't seem to be any point playing 'properly' when you can't protect your Collossi...ever, and it takes forever and a ton of gas to get HTs and Psi Storm (the only other alternative to the M+M+Tank+Viking blob)
On June 02 2010 08:38 RoMarX wrote: overall good patch imo. game-breaking changes arent good, the best way to balance a game is to balance slowly, blizz knows how to do it
Wise words.
I like this patch. The Ultras are now useful, or shall we say not as useless as before. What I would really like to see is a slight range on the ultralisk, even very small distance to let them hit when they are surrounded by a mass of other smaller zerg units. Maybe something similar to marauder's range.
When I try ultralisks, they get blocked, start running around with that retarded pathing logic and die before doing damage. That is the main issue I have with them, fix it and you'll have a viable unit.
On June 02 2010 08:15 roymarthyup wrote: oh my god, now with 12 damage it takes a viking 4 hits to kill a 45 hp worker.
last patch it took a viking only 4 hits to kill a worker with its 14 damage.
damn, what a nerf!
Z drones and P probes have 40 hp. It now takes 1 more hit to kill them. Pathetic harassment abilities. Vikings are totally 1 dimensional now. Boring and bad for gameplay.
On June 02 2010 05:10 -orb- wrote: sigh... waste of a patch.
No effective changes to toss
No one cared about viking's ground damage... it was the air damage that matters. How about like range 6 instead of the ridiculous range 9?
Zerg changes are meh
First of all, vikings range is 8 -- surprised you didnt know that. Second of all, its pretty obvious you are just mad you can't VR rush as effectively anymore, especially after the range nerf, and therefore viking range and damage is imba. You mad. Switch race or keep whining because honestly, although you are 'known' because of your stream, you won't be truly respected until you take a more objective look at the game.
Here is an objective look for you.
Zerg needed the buffs and may need more. We shall see over the next few days how they benefit.
Terran has not needed any of the buffs they have gotten for a while now. Terran is quickly getting imba and the bio ball as of patch 13 just pushed into stupidity.
Toss has not needed any of the nerfs it has received in the past several patches. The Voidray nerf was a kneejerk reaction pushed by sub par players wanting their inability to adapt fixed in game. Voids likely would of been just fine with just the stim change alone. Terran of course can't see that because most of them can't see beyond "I wanna mass maruader ftw and I can't". So Toss is quickly simply going from the most complete race where Terran and Zerg just needed to be tuned to be on par, to being a big kneejerk nerf fest rollercoaster of good one patch and gimped the next.
Back OT:
Decent overall patch, however given how close it is to end of beta I am highly disappointed not to see a number of changes.
Zerg got a bunch of changes so not going to comment on them. I want to see how they actually play out.
Terran -As mentioned the Viking change was mostly pointless. It wasn't the vikings ground dmg that was the problem, it was its air damage given how easy it can be massed. -Marauders remain imbalanced with stim. Eliminate stim and I think maruaders are fine, or eliminate the stupid amount of damage they do to buildings. One unit can't have the best of all worlds here. If Blizz is unwilling to remove stim from them, then at the very least they need their bonus to buildings removed.
Protoss - This patch has proved the Void nerf was overboard and did more damage to PVP and PVZ then it helped in PVT. Range needs to be restored while T keeps the stim upgrade. If voids somehow manage to start getting abused against T again (unlikely), then perhaps 1 more range on turrets might be in order. - Protoss still lacks any kind of counter to EMP. EMP was perfectly balance in SC:BW from a defense perspective because toss could utilize shield batteries to mitigate it somewhat. Lack of this strips away defenders advantage and turns 1 ghost into a 1 man wrecking ball vs toss. Before anyone argues feedback, I dare them to post multiple replays of them successfully and reliably feedbacking 1 ghost in the middle of a bio ball. Especially if it is an early to early midgame push. Clearly emp is fine for toss aggression, but there needs to be some form of base defenders advantage. Right now emp just straight strips that away instantly. - Carriers Why do they still take 120s to build? I think this may be the biggest hinderance to them being used. The build time is just silly. Battle cruisers are what 75s now? I forget exactly but somewhere close to half the time.
On June 02 2010 08:33 SC2Phoenix wrote: wow nice changes until i read that ultralisk speed increased but the upgrade was removed. Paying 150/150 wasnt the issue it was even with the upgrade they are still so sluggish....
Oh ffs, zerg players pretty much unanimously said that the ultralisk should start with the speed upgrade because you needed the speed to make them useful and it took too long to get speed... now blizzard gives you exactly what you want (which might be deserved) and you complain that it's still not fast enough? Wtf do you want your ultras to be as fast as speed lings? gtfo.
lol i totally agree with this comment, people need to quit the nerdraging just because its fun
On June 02 2010 08:50 MayZerG wrote: LOL Zergs are getting nerfed the past 2-3 patches? what the fuck? first roach 2 supply, now nerf again? fuck off blizzard.
On June 02 2010 08:38 RoMarX wrote: overall good patch imo. game-breaking changes arent good, the best way to balance a game is to balance slowly, blizz knows how to do it
Wise words.
I like this patch. The Ultras are now useful, or shall we say not as useless as before. What I would really like to see is a slight range on the ultralisk, even very small distance to let them hit when they are surrounded by a mass of other smaller zerg units. Maybe something similar to marauder's range.
When I try ultralisks, they get blocked, start running around with that retarded pathing logic and die before doing damage. That is the main issue I have with them, fix it and you'll have a viable unit.
Is this a mistake? Marauders have a pretty respectable range on them. Something like the firebat might be alright but Ultras are looking a lot better so it might not even be needed.
On June 02 2010 08:50 MayZerG wrote: LOL Zergs are getting nerfed the past 2-3 patches? what the fuck? first roach 2 supply, now nerf again? fuck off blizzard.
i'm only playing terran or protoss.
the roach nerf wasnt even that bad, two upgrades were essentially condensed into 1 and now you just need to burrow the roaches in order to get the regen back
Corruptor Corruption energy cost decreased from 100 to 75.
A great buff, but a very underused ability. I guess this is the answer to Vikings?
Infestor Burrowed move speed increased from 1 to 2. Peristalsis upgrade removed.
A cool buff to them, still wish burrowed units went under buildings.
Overlord/Overseer Pneumatized Carapace cost increased from 50/50 to 100/100.
Because Zerg drops were TOTALLY Op and not at all one of the few counters we had to a hardcore turtled Terran. I don't understand his nerf at all.
Overseer Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100.
Cool, but I still don't get the purpose. Anyone worth their salt in this game kills that slow moving thing so fast.. increase its health, or rate of fire or something...
Roach Organic Carapace upgrade removed. Tunneling Claws now also increases burrowed regeneration rate from 5 to 10.
Cool little buff, 1 upgrade gets tunneling claws and increased regen rate.. Love it.
Ultralisk Anabolic Synthesis upgrade removed. Health increased from 450 to 500. Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531.
I still don't think they are going to be that useful in game. Speed wasn't an issue, it was just how huge and clunky they are. I guess Blizz wants them to be like Thors.. but Thors can blend into an army well, Ultras have to be in melee range.. so maybe mix them like muta/hydra/ultra? I don't think that would work. I don't know how to fix this unit, but it's not by making it move faster and giving it slightly more health.
On June 02 2010 08:15 roymarthyup wrote: oh my god, now with 12 damage it takes a viking 4 hits to kill a 45 hp worker.
last patch it took a viking only 4 hits to kill a worker with its 14 damage.
damn, what a nerf!
Z drones and P probes have 40 hp. It now takes 1 more hit to kill them. Pathetic harassment abilities. Vikings are totally 1 dimensional now. Boring and bad for gameplay.
Nonsens... When did you see anyone harass with a single viking? They still obliterate workers when you have a few of them, and this damage nerf doesn't change that.
What it changes is that they had basically the same *base* DPS as a tank and some other units, while now you can get some better bang for the buck with a few other units, which means you will see more diversity now.
In terms of strategy, this changes the terran vs terran matchup mostly, as they were turning into viking wars. Now you can make some other ground units and have a slight DPS advantage so viking isnt > than all now.
Reactor on starport is really troubling in PvT still now when you can get fast stim+concussive with 150/150. Vikings mass up so fast and P can't really attack with anything on the ground. T can go 2 based quite safe and fast.
I don't think that the damages or ranges are so imbalanced. And not suggesting that viking should go to tech lab just think that maybe build times on concussive and vikings should be looked into.
Concussives on smaller maps like Steppes and Incineration Zone are just ridicilous right now.
Seems Incineration Zone is missing from my 1v1 Map Preferences, wonder if it was stealth taken out of the pool for some reason? Anybody had games on it post patch?
On June 02 2010 05:10 -orb- wrote: sigh... waste of a patch.
No effective changes to toss
No one cared about viking's ground damage... it was the air damage that matters. How about like range 6 instead of the ridiculous range 9?
Zerg changes are meh
With the utmost respect, if Viking range was reduced to 6, what would Terran have to counter Colossus and Void Rays. (Yes, I know there are other ways to counter void rays, but they all involve either making a push or giving up map control, as far as I know.)
Well, here's my issues with the Viking/Void Ray dynamic:
1) Vikings outrange all of the Protoss' anti-Air units, so its easy for Terran to walk up to your front gate with Siege Tanks and establish a Siege when they're protected by Vikings. This also makes it impossible to protect your Collossi from Vikings when there are Siege Tanks nearby. Your Stalkers, Sentries and Void Rays can't get anywhere near to kill the Vikings when there's a blob of Marines, Marauders and/or Tanks nearby.
2) Fully-charged Void Rays utterly destroy Vikings, cost-for-cost, if they get too close.
3) Fully-charged, upgraded Void Rays raaaaaaaape Vikings, cost-for-cost, and there's not a damn thing the Terran can do about it except bring a buttload of Marines around with them (the Vikings can't kite, and the Void Rays get within range instantly, with the speed/acceleration upgrade and unequivocally rape them).
4) Uncharged Void Rays, speed upgrade or not, suck intergalactic space donkey dick against Vikings.
Because of this, all of my PvTs turn into "Distract him over here, send a wad of upgraded Void Rays into his base, charge up to full, wait for Vikings to arrive (without Marine backup), utterly rape them, then harass until victory". It feels so frigging lame, but its the only thing that seems to work for me. There just doesn't seem to be any point playing 'properly' when you can't protect your Collossi...ever, and it takes forever and a ton of gas to get HTs and Psi Storm (the only other alternative to the M+M+Tank+Viking blob)
Could this be fixed by giving phoenix their overload ability back, while nerfing charged void rays (maybe reducing chargedown time)?
In this scenario, a properly microed group of phoenixs can fly in (way faster than vikings) and overload to take them out, making them a proper AA unit that is equal in power to vikings. (In a, whoever controls them best wins kinda way, instead of just vikings outright owning phoenix.)
Now to consider the unintended consequences: would this make phoenix OP vs zerg? Well, if used against mutas, which they already are supposed to counter, the mutas can just fly away because they are fast, and then quickly come back to destroy them while they are defenseless - so no new disadvantages vs mutas. Vs brood lords: hey, something other than blinking stalkers that counters them if used properly (but only if used properly, otherwise they die to ground army). VS corruptor: looks like same dynamic vs viking, although corruptors probably suck too much now for that to be necessary. Maybe we need a corrupter buff here (give it some support abilities just like viking and phoenix already have).
Viking nerf breaks the game, there is now NO reason for anyone to ever play Terran again. I guess all Terran will just play Toss or Zerg now... GG Blizz, now we only have 2 viable races. way to make Terran 100% worthless and buff the most OP races in the game. RIP Terran, you had a good run but now it's officially over, and no Terran will ever win any game ever again. It is a sad sad day for former Terran players, But at least Terran can still be useful in 4v4 massing expos and feeding the OP races with mules and SCVs...
idk how i feel about the roach tunneling claws hp regen and im zerg. it feels really strong to me but idk we'll see. i hate the ov speed nerf but not that big of a deal i guess. im kind of sad for the viking getting a nerf. it did insane dps but was it really that bad or are they just nerfing it cause it seems like it does a ton of dsp even though it might not be a problem? overall im happy with the patch considering patch 12 and 13.
On June 02 2010 08:58 NATO wrote: Could this be fixed by giving phoenix their overload ability back, while nerfing charged void rays (maybe reducing chargedown time)?.
This isn't really related to your question, but it kind of spawned this idea for me. Would it completely break the game to give Void Rays an "overheating" event if they are charged for too long? It would definitely stop the ridiculous dps coming out of group of 10 void rays.
First of all, vikings range is 8 -- surprised you didnt know that.
meh. try hard fail.
i actually like this patch. i don't play Z but it looks like they were trying to improve on some of the problems ie: more life/ speed to ultra, making infestor more useful (can burrow move with army for better positioning and escape), bringing back the roach burrow incentive (now maybe Z will force better obs) etc.
as a toss im glad we didnt get nerfed : p and wonder if a phoenix harass vs Z has some different timings with the overlord change.
why do z-players find unfair that a roach has the same supply requirement than a zealot (the least food-expensive unit in the whole toss army)? Can you imagine a zealot eating twice as much food than a roach?
It would be awesome if people didn't complain about at least one patch. This patch was perfectly fine - it didn't break anything, and it fine tuned some things. If anything people were given what they wanted.
On June 02 2010 08:15 roymarthyup wrote: oh my god, now with 12 damage it takes a viking 4 hits to kill a 45 hp worker.
last patch it took a viking only 4 hits to kill a worker with its 14 damage.
damn, what a nerf!
Z drones and P probes have 40 hp. It now takes 1 more hit to kill them. Pathetic harassment abilities. Vikings are totally 1 dimensional now. Boring and bad for gameplay.
So Goliaths were boring in Sc1 because they had weak ground?
I'm under impression that their whole balance team just forgot about Overlords drop ability O_o Otherwise they'd reduce it's cost by same 50/50, cause there's just absolutely No reason to make it worser than before
On June 02 2010 09:07 pash1k wrote: It would be awesome if people didn't complain about at least one patch. This patch was perfectly fine - it didn't break anything, and it fine tuned some things. If anything people were given what they wanted.
tl;dr QQ moar pls
WRONG
Vikings may as well have been removed, they are 100% worthless in ALL situations now.
Archon buff makes protoss completely unstoppable, they can now just merge, 12 seconds later 1a2a auto win.
Overlord nerf makes drops completely impossible, there should have just removed it from the game, 50/50 increase means no more drops until late late game.
Ultra buff makes Zerg easy mode, just spamm ultras and win.
And worst of all "Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100" OK GREAT BLIZZ, now Zerg doesn't even have to make units, just spam Infested Terran all day and auto win.
this game is now completely broken beyond repair, there is no balance and the game is completely 1 dimensional easy mode noobified...
On June 02 2010 05:10 -orb- wrote: sigh... waste of a patch.
No effective changes to toss
No one cared about viking's ground damage... it was the air damage that matters. How about like range 6 instead of the ridiculous range 9?
Zerg changes are meh
With the utmost respect, if Viking range was reduced to 6, what would Terran have to counter Colossus and Void Rays. (Yes, I know there are other ways to counter void rays, but they all involve either making a push or giving up map control, as far as I know.)
As it stands, Vikings do frightful damage against Colossus and Void Rays, at longer range than any Protoss unit, and because they don't take a Tech Lab they build very quickly. I don't know if that's unfair; I tend to think it's a little over the top considering they also have a ground mode which does quite good damage. It's hard to use air/colossus against Terran (unless it's the Phoenix, which is light) except as a VR cheese because 28 damage/range 9 is so sick.
On June 02 2010 08:33 SC2Phoenix wrote: wow nice changes until i read that ultralisk speed increased but the upgrade was removed. Paying 150/150 wasnt the issue it was even with the upgrade they are still so sluggish....
Oh ffs, zerg players pretty much unanimously said that the ultralisk should start with the speed upgrade because you needed the speed to make them useful and it took too long to get speed... now blizzard gives you exactly what you want (which might be deserved) and you complain that it's still not fast enough? Wtf do you want your ultras to be as fast as speed lings? gtfo.
In BW, Ultralisks were nearly as fast as speedlings. They were the second fastest unit in the game.
On June 02 2010 05:10 -orb- wrote: sigh... waste of a patch.
No effective changes to toss
No one cared about viking's ground damage... it was the air damage that matters. How about like range 6 instead of the ridiculous range 9?
Zerg changes are meh
First of all, vikings range is 8 -- surprised you didnt know that. Second of all, its pretty obvious you are just mad you can't VR rush as effectively anymore, especially after the range nerf, and therefore viking range and damage is imba. You mad. Switch race or keep whining because honestly, although you are 'known' because of your stream, you won't be truly respected until you take a more objective look at the game.
Protoss still lacks any kind of counter to EMP. EMP was perfectly balance in SC:BW from a defense perspective because toss could utilize shield batteries to mitigate it somewhat. Lack of this strips away defenders advantage and turns 1 ghost into a 1 man wrecking ball vs toss. Before anyone argues feedback, I dare them to post multiple replays of them successfully and reliably feedbacking 1 ghost in the middle of a bio ball. Especially if it is an early to early midgame push. Clearly emp is fine for toss aggression, but there needs to be some form of base defenders advantage. Right now emp just straight strips that away instantly.
Ghosts are very hard to see, even uncloaked. This is a problem given their importance as targets.
Units also clump more, hiding units that need their shields/energy in shuttles is harder now (Vikings are much more maneuverable anti-air than goliaths, and have more range + burst damage), Ghosts are lower tech than Vessels were, and EMP costs less mana.
On June 02 2010 09:10 InRaged wrote: I'm under impression that their whole balance team just forgot about Overlords drop ability O_o Otherwise they'd reduce it's cost by same 50/50, cause there's just absolutely No reason to make it worser than before
Overlord speed was 150/150 in SC1 and drop was still 200/200. It's still a bargain.
I see this patch enabling zerg users to have more bang for their buck when researching burrow. Infestors can move underground at a faster speed automatically and roaches can regen. Makes burrow a more viable option imo.
On June 02 2010 09:10 InRaged wrote: I'm under impression that their whole balance team just forgot about Overlords drop ability O_o Otherwise they'd reduce it's cost by same 50/50, cause there's just absolutely No reason to make it worser than before
Overlord speed was 150/150 in SC1 and drop was still 200/200. It's still a bargain.
You can't compare just like that, cause BW hadn't beastly nydus worms at the same tech Plus, you didn't need your overlords to spread creep all over the map
On June 02 2010 09:07 pash1k wrote: It would be awesome if people didn't complain about at least one patch. This patch was perfectly fine - it didn't break anything, and it fine tuned some things. If anything people were given what they wanted.
tl;dr QQ moar pls
WRONG
Vikings may as well have been removed, they are 100% worthless in ALL situations now.
Archon buff makes protoss completely unstoppable, they can now just merge, 12 seconds later 1a2a auto win.
Overlord nerf makes drops completely impossible, there should have just removed it from the game, 50/50 increase means no more drops until late late game.
Ultra buff makes Zerg easy mode, just spamm ultras and win.
And worst of all "Infested Terran energy cost decreased from 125 to 100" OK GREAT BLIZZ, now Zerg doesn't even have to make units, just spam Infested Terran all day and auto win.
this game is now completely broken beyond repair, there is no balance and the game is completely 1 dimensional easy mode noobified...
On June 02 2010 09:10 InRaged wrote: I'm under impression that their whole balance team just forgot about Overlords drop ability O_o Otherwise they'd reduce it's cost by same 50/50, cause there's just absolutely No reason to make it worser than before
Overlord speed was 150/150 in SC1 and drop was still 200/200. It's still a bargain.
Overlords were also observers back then as well though.
On June 02 2010 09:07 pash1k wrote: It would be awesome if people didn't complain about at least one patch. This patch was perfectly fine - it didn't break anything, and it fine tuned some things. If anything people were given what they wanted.
tl;dr QQ moar pls
i'm pretty sure 2 sentences wasn't too long to read.
but as a zerg player, i plan to try out a few roach builds seeing some uses for this change. as for ultras.. i'm not so sure.. what are they good against? like, stalkers? maybe? it won't change much imo.
On June 02 2010 07:14 s031720 wrote: I personally dont like the new spells; a spell that buffs or nerfs 1 unit really is meaningless in a game that mainly deals with clashes of greatnumber of units. I hope they remove them or make them AoE. As it is now, these spells fit better in WC3 that is much more micro-oriented.
corruption isn't hard to use and can show immediate results when going corrupter vs viking and for FF'ing down thors. tbh i think it's the bee's knees, since the spell and the past dmg buff might have made the corruptor the dominant AtA unit. i also like it because it gives a way to micro the corruptor, maybe it's spammy but at least it's something.
frenzy, i don't know what to think about it. i haven't used it much and can only theorize it optimally going w/ roaches and ultras and being very microintensive if trying to stop fungal growth from another Z. i sort of agree with you here but maybe only out of ignorance
Eventually Blizzard will realize the imbalance with Vikings/Tanks. No P air beats vikings, and no P ground beats tanks, there is literally nothing you can do against a Tank/Hellion/Viking army once they hit a certain point. The only thing that seemed somewhat viable was mass carrier with upgrades, at similar resources spent, you'll survive against vikings with a couple carriers left-over. However considering that vikings can be made way, way quicker than carriers, that isn't even feasible.
As of right now, I just rush Terrans. There is a chance that will go bio-ball, or some other beatable strategy, but I am thoroughly convinced that nothing the Protoss has can deal with Tank/Viking/Hellion.
On June 02 2010 08:58 NATO wrote: Could this be fixed by giving phoenix their overload ability back, while nerfing charged void rays (maybe reducing chargedown time)?.
This isn't really related to your question, but it kind of spawned this idea for me. Would it completely break the game to give Void Rays an "overheating" event if they are charged for too long? It would definitely stop the ridiculous dps coming out of group of 10 void rays.
Interesting....although void rays should still counter all the huge units (thor, battlecruiser, ultra, mothership), buildings, and do well against largish units that aren't not meant to be AA like queen.
Thinking about this, maybe there should be a way for Terran to destroy the charge of void rays in their base - as the only real problem is if they get in a Terrans based and charge up they are practically invincible. This has a similar effect to overheat, but requires a proper response, so someone ignoring their base, or busy microing a huge battle would still get pwnt (as they should).
I'm leaning towards putting this in ghost. Now that I think about it, if lockdown were added, ghost+marines could just pwn void ray harass. (This would prevent the shield charging/ledge abuse of the void ray.) Obviously lockdown would need to be hugely nerfed from sc1 because of smartcasting. I'd say shorter period, and significantly higher energy cost (same range). Also, put as upgrade, so the Terran must scout that it is needed. Finally, it would not work against massive units. (Locking down mothership would be quite OP, to an already weak mothership.) I'm thinking 125 energy to cast (only one per ghost), and a fairly short time (don't know exact numbers for that, but think very short like 4 seconds?). Also, if that's too OP, make the unit still be able to attack, but it removes the ability to use ANY unit abilities (including VR charge - which would reset it).
Anyone have an idea to a balanced mechanic that could stop VR charge, while keeping VR powerful? Also, Zerg input would be great here as I haven't played as Zerg in a long time (so many patches since then.)
ALSO: If this is added, VR should get back it's 7 range.
On June 02 2010 08:58 NATO wrote: Could this be fixed by giving phoenix their overload ability back, while nerfing charged void rays (maybe reducing chargedown time)?.
This isn't really related to your question, but it kind of spawned this idea for me. Would it completely break the game to give Void Rays an "overheating" event if they are charged for too long? It would definitely stop the ridiculous dps coming out of group of 10 void rays.
Interesting....although void rays should still counter all the huge units (thor, battlecruiser, ultra, mothership), buildings, and do well against largish units that aren't not meant to be AA like queen.
Thinking about this, maybe there should be a way for Terran to destroy the charge of void rays in their base - as the only real problem is if they get in a Terrans based and charge up they are practically invincible. This has a similar effect to overheat, but requires a proper response, so someone ignoring their base, or busy microing a huge battle would still get pwnt (as they should).
I'm leaning towards putting this in ghost. Now that I think about it, if lockdown were added, ghost+marines could just pwn void ray harass. (This would prevent the shield charging/ledge abuse of the void ray.) Obviously lockdown would need to be hugely nerfed from sc1 because of smartcasting. I'd say shorter period, and significantly higher energy cost (same range). Also, put as upgrade, so the Terran must scout that it is needed. Finally, it would not work against massive units. (Locking down mothership would be quite OP, to an already weak mothership.)
Anyone have an idea to a balanced mechanic that could stop VR charge, while keeping VR powerful? Also, Zerg input would be great here as I haven't played as Zerg in a long time (so many patches since then.)
On June 02 2010 09:43 Paramore wrote: voidrays range nerf was pretty substantial... rines actually counter them now.. so sad.. tier 1 unit counters heavy air unit...
what are you talking about, thats what made bw great
tier 1, 2 and 3 all useful in lategame (ie. tier 1 lings in lategame zerg)
Overlord speed nerfed. That's odd. It's still an upgrade you usually get, but was it too strong at 50/50?
Looks like they finally did what I knew they should have done for a long time. Trim the roach and ultra upgrades and just make them innate. Ultra generally still not worth using.
And more futile attempts to make infested terran worth using..
On June 02 2010 09:36 Salv wrote: Eventually Blizzard will realize the imbalance with Vikings/Tanks. No P air beats vikings, and no P ground beats tanks, there is literally nothing you can do against a Tank/Hellion/Viking army once they hit a certain point. The only thing that seemed somewhat viable was mass carrier with upgrades, at similar resources spent, you'll survive against vikings with a couple carriers left-over. However considering that vikings can be made way, way quicker than carriers, that isn't even feasible.
As of right now, I just rush Terrans. There is a chance that will go bio-ball, or some other beatable strategy, but I am thoroughly convinced that nothing the Protoss has can deal with Tank/Viking/Hellion.
Mass Phoenix will buttfuck that composition. Phoenix cost slightly more gas than Vikings, have more HP and move speed than Vikings, and have greater DPS against Vikings than Vikings do against Phoenix.
Phoenix are light armored --> Vikings suck gopher dicks.
On June 02 2010 09:36 Salv wrote: Eventually Blizzard will realize the imbalance with Vikings/Tanks. No P air beats vikings, and no P ground beats tanks, there is literally nothing you can do against a Tank/Hellion/Viking army once they hit a certain point. The only thing that seemed somewhat viable was mass carrier with upgrades, at similar resources spent, you'll survive against vikings with a couple carriers left-over. However considering that vikings can be made way, way quicker than carriers, that isn't even feasible.
As of right now, I just rush Terrans. There is a chance that will go bio-ball, or some other beatable strategy, but I am thoroughly convinced that nothing the Protoss has can deal with Tank/Viking/Hellion.
Mass Phoenix will buttfuck that composition. Phoenix cost slightly more gas than Vikings, have more HP and move speed than Vikings, and have greater DPS against Vikings than Vikings do against Phoenix.
Phoenix are light armored --> Vikings suck gopher dicks.
if you go mass phoenix, Terran can just add marines pumped with reactors
Anyone have an idea to a balanced mechanic that could stop VR charge, while keeping VR powerful? Also, Zerg input would be great here as I haven't played as Zerg in a long time (so many patches since then.)
ALSO: If this is added, VR should get back it's 7 range.
I never had a problem with the void ray range but I could see how it was easy just to mass void ray against t. I don't know enough about the m/u to know if it was actually imba or just tough to deal with. I've heard that it was tough to deal with but not impossible. Maybe make the void ray do a % damage against stuff so it kills buildings and armored units with high hp faster but doesn't instakill rines when fully charged? That being said I don't think vr needs a change pvz.
On June 02 2010 09:15 XFire wrote: According to a blue, the increase in pneumatized carapace cost is to make it more of a "choice" than a "given".
I dunno, it seemed like I never really had a choice because of the clear cut advantages it gives (1) Zerg has the weakest scouting ability inside opponent bases (1) Terran and Protoss Air harassment is particularly devestating against Zerg (3) Spreading creep is super advantageous for any ground army composition.
On June 02 2010 09:36 Salv wrote: Eventually Blizzard will realize the imbalance with Vikings/Tanks. No P air beats vikings, and no P ground beats tanks, there is literally nothing you can do against a Tank/Hellion/Viking army once they hit a certain point. The only thing that seemed somewhat viable was mass carrier with upgrades, at similar resources spent, you'll survive against vikings with a couple carriers left-over. However considering that vikings can be made way, way quicker than carriers, that isn't even feasible.
As of right now, I just rush Terrans. There is a chance that will go bio-ball, or some other beatable strategy, but I am thoroughly convinced that nothing the Protoss has can deal with Tank/Viking/Hellion.
Mass Phoenix will buttfuck that composition. Phoenix cost slightly more gas than Vikings, have more HP and move speed than Vikings, and have greater DPS against Vikings than Vikings do against Phoenix.
Phoenix are light armored --> Vikings suck gopher dicks.
Good luck fighting Range 9 mass Vikings with your Range 4 mass Phoenixes.
Oh, and Vikings are heavy armored --> Phoenixes suck donkey balls.
And before anybody says Immortals, Vikings en masse will slay Immortals like there's no tomorrow >.>
On June 02 2010 09:15 XFire wrote: According to a blue, the increase in pneumatized carapace cost is to make it more of a "choice" than a "given".
I dunno, it seemed like I never really had a choice because of the clear cut advantages it gives (1) Zerg has the weakest scouting ability inside opponent bases (1) Terran and Protoss Air harassment is particularly devestating against Zerg (3) Spreading creep is super advantageous for any ground army composition.
Yeah psy said the nerf wasn't that big of a deal but to me it seemed pretty significant for tank drops on lost temple and being able to counter attack terran's base faster. I've also noticed my timings a bit off for not scouting vr's fast enough where I would catch it in time before. I probably just have to adjust and maybe it's not that big of a deal even though 300/300 for drops seems like a lot.
otoh roaches seem to be good again. Maybe even too good against toss?
On June 02 2010 05:22 Chill wrote: Why is it 2.9531? Does Blizzard really need accuracy to 4 decimal places?
61/64 = 0.953125
edit: the technical reason why we need a power of 2: + Show Spoiler +
To be more specific, 2.95 does not have an exact representation in finite precision floating point arithmetic because the number is binary when in the computer. If the denominator is a power of 2, however, the number can be represented exactly. You'll accumulate roundoff error over time because you are adding 2.95+error to itself every timestep. It's probably not a big deal; most likely it would just give your hydralisk has an unnoticeably small random variation in speed, but it might lead to weird collision detection bugs so it's best to just remove the ambiguity and work in powers of 2.
Real-world example of when counting time in a base-10 increment instead of a base-2 increment caused roundoff error that made a Patriot Missile system fail during the Gulf War: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RoundoffError.html
Can they please just get rid of the Infested Terran unit? It adds absolutly nothing to the game, is a copy of the auto turrets and has that wierd "guns and armour from nowhere" awkwardness.
At the very least make Contaminate spawn Infested Terrans when cast on a Terran building. Its ok to have a racially specific ability like EMP.
like the ultra buff, dont think its enough but its a big step in the right direction, more HP AND speed.
HATE the archon change, it just seems like another excuse for blizzard to make it a useless unit, even better now at filling the role of morph after you are done with templar so you can meat shield a little instead of being an actually viable late-game unit worth 300 gas
I hope the change concussive shells and warpgate to 100/100 as well, those arnt really choices either, you just always get them.
On June 02 2010 07:14 s031720 wrote: I personally dont like the new spells; a spell that buffs or nerfs 1 unit really is meaningless in a game that mainly deals with clashes of greatnumber of units. I hope they remove them or make them AoE. As it is now, these spells fit better in WC3 that is much more micro-oriented.
I agree. These spells just stink WC3. This is SC, for god's sake, who cares about one unit in an army? SC is about great numbers, wtf is up with spells that makes 1 unit easier to kill, 1 unit stronger, this is a war, this isn't a small camp battle, there is no hero here.
What really makes me angry is that instead of working with concepts and using these holes in the Z (these skills - corruption, frenzy and, bleh, infested terran), that nobody uses, and even if use, it isn't fun, it doesn't fit in the game, holy god THEY DON'T FIT... Instead of using this oportunity to bring some really cool stuff for Z they just sit around and "meh, let's just put some WC3 stuff and it'll be fine. If anything goes wrong, woa, we can just BALANCE the numbers and it'll be allright!".
Not that I entirely disagree with you, but I just want to give a few SC1 examples of single target spells: - Defensive matrix. - Restoration
On June 02 2010 07:14 s031720 wrote: I personally dont like the new spells; a spell that buffs or nerfs 1 unit really is meaningless in a game that mainly deals with clashes of greatnumber of units. I hope they remove them or make them AoE. As it is now, these spells fit better in WC3 that is much more micro-oriented.
I agree. These spells just stink WC3. This is SC, for god's sake, who cares about one unit in an army? SC is about great numbers, wtf is up with spells that makes 1 unit easier to kill, 1 unit stronger, this is a war, this isn't a small camp battle, there is no hero here.
What really makes me angry is that instead of working with concepts and using these holes in the Z (these skills - corruption, frenzy and, bleh, infested terran), that nobody uses, and even if use, it isn't fun, it doesn't fit in the game, holy god THEY DON'T FIT... Instead of using this oportunity to bring some really cool stuff for Z they just sit around and "meh, let's just put some WC3 stuff and it'll be fine. If anything goes wrong, woa, we can just BALANCE the numbers and it'll be allright!".
Not that I entirely disagree with you, but I just want to give a few SC1 examples of single target spells: - Defensive matrix. - Restoration
On the same vein- Optic flare & Lockdown
I'd personally argue those were MUCH more interesting spells and cant be compared to the SC2 crap.
D-matrix--> keeps one important unit alive longer, ie dropship, good for suicide moves or drawing fire so your army is better
Flare--> shuts down expensive units, makes a detector useless. very situational but extremely interesting when pulled off right.
Lockdown--> same as above, very expensive and hard to get, as well as cast, but can provide huge results if used correctly, allows you to completely nullify one of their biggest threats.
Corruption--> stuff takes more damage. single target. 20%. uh, lol? so i kill it in 15 shots instead of 18, that helps me how? his colossi die 1/5 a second faster than they normally would.... absolutely game changing.
Frenzy--> my unit does more damage. cannot be statused. one unit. this on the race thats meant to mass a shitton of units that overwhelm you. makes perfect sense.
On June 02 2010 10:36 Assault_1 wrote: howcome archon's dont have splash against air units, people don't seem to be complaining about this so must be a good reason?
Archons don't have splash against air units? Is this true?
I just assumed they did since it would be completely retarded for them not to, especially after nerfing their attack rate so hard.
On June 02 2010 05:19 asdfTT123 wrote: LOL! Decreased Archon warp time by 5 seconds? That's the last buff that P needs. Thanks Blizzard for an amazing job well done, as always. -_-
Considering they took the ultralisk in the direction that TL has been wanting it to be in, I think blizzard did a pretty good job.
Remember unless your favorite race is buffed the patch is useless. sigh
On June 02 2010 10:36 Assault_1 wrote: howcome archon's dont have splash against air units, people don't seem to be complaining about this so must be a good reason?
Because phoenix fly backwards while pewing pewing. Protoss has no problem countering air so no one has bothered demanding buffs to it.
On June 02 2010 10:36 Assault_1 wrote: howcome archon's dont have splash against air units, people don't seem to be complaining about this so must be a good reason?
They do have splash, actually. With the recent patch, you can actually use it, too ^_^
swweeeeeet! archons build a little faster? good thing theyre still a completly unless unit (aside from mass speedling, which, who really does that in 1v1). why doesnt the TOSS unless unit get buffs like the zergs ultra does. and what about the pointless terran units......... o wait they dont have any
On June 02 2010 10:39 Zutta wrote: swweeeeeet! archons build a little faster? good thing theyre still a completly unless unit (aside from mass speedling, which, who really does that in 1v1). why doesnt the TOSS unless unit get buffs like the zergs ultra does. and what about the pointless terran units......... o wait they dont have any
Would you rather that Blizzard not do anything and make it look like they don't even acknowledge the unit?
On June 02 2010 10:39 Zutta wrote: swweeeeeet! archons build a little faster? good thing theyre still a completly unless unit (aside from mass speedling, which, who really does that in 1v1). why doesnt the TOSS unless unit get buffs like the zergs ultra does. and what about the pointless terran units......... o wait they dont have any
Would you rather that Blizzard not do anything and make it look like they don't even acknowledge the unit?
On June 02 2010 10:36 Assault_1 wrote: howcome archon's dont have splash against air units, people don't seem to be complaining about this so must be a good reason?
They do have splash, actually. With the recent patch, you can actually use it, too ^_^
was it lack of splash against ground then? I was sure they have splash against one but not the other..
Judging by some of the posts in this thread, I'm guessing the average age here is around 12.
just relax, it's a beta. Not every single hole or imbalance will be fixed. They probably won't be all "fixed" for another 6 months. So why don't you just adjust and try to enjoy the game in the meantime.
On June 02 2010 10:43 FlamingTurd wrote: Wow wut total bs *buffs* to Z... that is not what Z needed at all...
not bs buffs, zerg is fine, we could only get more units or habilities to make it funnier. I don't understand how can no one notice how good of a buff it is...
On June 02 2010 10:43 FlamingTurd wrote: Wow wut total bs *buffs* to Z... that is not what Z needed at all...
not bs buffs, zerg is fine, we could only get more units or habilities to make it funnier. I don't understand how can no one notice how good of a buff it is...
You obviously dont play Zerg. Zerg is far from fine. Try playing Zerg against Terran Mech
On June 02 2010 10:50 ZergTurd wrote: Judging by some of the posts in this thread, I'm guessing the average age here is around 12.
just relax, it's a beta. Not every single hole or imbalance will be fixed. They probably won't be all "fixed" for another 6 months. So why don't you just adjust and try to enjoy the game in the meantime.
The goal of a beta is to "enjoy the game" ? I thought the goal was to give constructive feadbacks to blizzard so they balance/improve the game. And the fact that fenzy/ corruptor ability/ infested terran are ability which are useless / non fun to use / completely irrevelant in a game is a feadback that blizzard need to look at.
On June 02 2010 09:43 Paramore wrote: voidrays range nerf was pretty substantial... rines actually counter them now.. so sad.. tier 1 unit counters heavy air unit...
That's sort of the design... Even in the very first reveal of SC2 when they showed Void Rays, they showed them completely decimating Battlecruisers but getting annihilated when facing mass Marines. They're supposed to be good against armored units that have a lot of HP since their attack gets stronger over time, and weak against large numbers of small units.
On June 02 2010 09:36 Salv wrote: Eventually Blizzard will realize the imbalance with Vikings/Tanks. No P air beats vikings, and no P ground beats tanks, there is literally nothing you can do against a Tank/Hellion/Viking army once they hit a certain point. The only thing that seemed somewhat viable was mass carrier with upgrades, at similar resources spent, you'll survive against vikings with a couple carriers left-over. However considering that vikings can be made way, way quicker than carriers, that isn't even feasible.
As of right now, I just rush Terrans. There is a chance that will go bio-ball, or some other beatable strategy, but I am thoroughly convinced that nothing the Protoss has can deal with Tank/Viking/Hellion.
You think P has it bad? Z doesn't even have storm, immortals or colossi to survive the midgame vs mech. All they can do is build roaches and hope the T forgot to build a raven/turret.
On June 02 2010 09:36 Salv wrote: Eventually Blizzard will realize the imbalance with Vikings/Tanks. No P air beats vikings, and no P ground beats tanks, there is literally nothing you can do against a Tank/Hellion/Viking army once they hit a certain point. The only thing that seemed somewhat viable was mass carrier with upgrades, at similar resources spent, you'll survive against vikings with a couple carriers left-over. However considering that vikings can be made way, way quicker than carriers, that isn't even feasible.
As of right now, I just rush Terrans. There is a chance that will go bio-ball, or some other beatable strategy, but I am thoroughly convinced that nothing the Protoss has can deal with Tank/Viking/Hellion.
Mass Phoenix will buttfuck that composition. Phoenix cost slightly more gas than Vikings, have more HP and move speed than Vikings, and have greater DPS against Vikings than Vikings do against Phoenix.
Phoenix are light armored --> Vikings suck gopher dicks.
This is wrong. Phoenix's cost more than Vikings for one, so they will always have more, also a viking will beat a phoenix in a straight up fight. Even so, using mass phoenix to lift up tanks has been tried, and it doesn't work. You will be able to lift up some siege tanks, but you won't be able to get through the hellions before the remaining siege tanks drop to the ground and decimate your ground army. You won't be able to lift up the tanks again because your phoenix's will be gone at this point.
This strategy does work when they make marine/tank/viking, because colossi will rip through the marines very, very quickly, however there is a flaw in this as well. You have no idea whether the opponent will be making hellion/tank/viking, or marine/tank/viking, and the phoenix counter that works versus marines doesn't work at all versus hellion/tank/viking. So why is that a problem? Because in order for the phoenix strategy to work, you have to add a stargate and pump phoenixes the second you see siege tanks. If you wait too long, you won't have enough phoenix to make the strategy work. Essentially, you have to start a build to counter marine/tank/viking, before you even know if that's the composition they will use. A good terran player will be scouting his base with viking/raven to kill your stray observers, so that isn't an option either.
Tanks variation builds are simply too powerful versus Protoss, it's been said multiple times and the only persons I see disagree are bad Protoss', and Terrans who want to think that they are just amazing players, and not that their army composition is simply not possible to effectively stop.
On June 02 2010 11:13 teamsolid wrote: You think P has it bad? Z doesn't even have storm, immortals or colossi to survive the midgame vs mech. All they can do is build roaches and hope the T forgot to build a raven/turret.
It's true that a Protoss can survive mid game, but that doesn't matter. The second critical mass is reached with tanks and vikings, any unit composition ceases to have any effectiveness. I don't know that much about ZvT, I have heard that a similar balance exists, and I have heard it from a lot of reputable sources. All I know is that there is a big flaw in PvT right now and it needs to be fixed.
On June 02 2010 10:43 FlamingTurd wrote: Wow wut total bs *buffs* to Z... that is not what Z needed at all...
not bs buffs, zerg is fine, we could only get more units or habilities to make it funnier. I don't understand how can no one notice how good of a buff it is...
You obviously dont play Zerg. Zerg is far from fine. Try playing Zerg against Terran Mech
I was talking to a friend of mine who plays Zerg and I actually asked him about Terran mech in TvZ and whether he considered it unbeatable as so many Zerg players do (I had a Zerg player earlier that day just ranting and ranting about how overpowered mech TvZ is). My friend said that Terran mech is strong, but you have to exploit the lack of mobility, and I knew exactly what he was talking about. If you build units such that the Terran has to get Thors, then you have the capability of exploiting the slow movement speed of Thors and expanding throughout the map while getting large numbers of lings, roaches, whatever, systematically taking out undefended expansions. Of course, if you were to try and fight head-on, you would lose, but the poor maneuverability of mech appears to balance this out.
I lost a game (2v2) where my opponents went mass mass Muta, far too many to ever stop with Turrets alone, so I went Thors and parked one at each expansion. Then that wasn't enough to stop them so I had to park two at each expansion. Meanwhile the Zerg dominated the map and I kept getting flanked by mass speedlings and roaches when I tried to move out. Eventually one of them went Brood Lords and it was all over because my main and natural were mined out.
On June 02 2010 10:39 Zutta wrote: swweeeeeet! archons build a little faster? good thing theyre still a completly unless unit (aside from mass speedling, which, who really does that in 1v1). why doesnt the TOSS unless unit get buffs like the zergs ultra does. and what about the pointless terran units......... o wait they dont have any
Would you rather that Blizzard not do anything and make it look like they don't even acknowledge the unit?
Exactly.
Carrier.
Carrier is a T3 unit that serves exactly that purpose, and it doesn't suck like Ultras. Your point?
The problem with Archons is that they weren't very usable after just firing off a storm like Blizzard intended, because the enemy had a year and a half to kill the thing. Now imagine that, except waiting just a year. It's definitely a needed improvement.
On June 02 2010 10:36 Assault_1 wrote: howcome archon's dont have splash against air units, people don't seem to be complaining about this so must be a good reason?
They do have splash, actually. With the recent patch, you can actually use it, too ^_^
was it lack of splash against ground then? I was sure they have splash against one but not the other..
they have splash against everything. its just so small and pathetic that no one notices it.
Considering that the archon serves the roll as an emergency unit, the morph should take more like two or three seconds. Why the delay at all? Is there some imbalance if Protoss players could merge their HT almost instantly? Either way, it's better than nothing.
On June 02 2010 11:13 teamsolid wrote: You think P has it bad? Z doesn't even have storm, immortals or colossi to survive the midgame vs mech. All they can do is build roaches and hope the T forgot to build a raven/turret.
It's true that a Protoss can survive mid game, but that doesn't matter. The second critical mass is reached with tanks and vikings, any unit composition ceases to have any effectiveness. I don't know that much about ZvT, I have heard that a similar balance exists, and I have heard it from a lot of reputable sources. All I know is that there is a big flaw in PvT right now and it needs to be fixed.
It's pretty much the same thing in ZvT except worse, because the critical tank mass needed to kill roaches is way smaller than vs P.
On June 02 2010 10:39 Zutta wrote: swweeeeeet! archons build a little faster? good thing theyre still a completly unless unit (aside from mass speedling, which, who really does that in 1v1). why doesnt the TOSS unless unit get buffs like the zergs ultra does. and what about the pointless terran units......... o wait they dont have any
Would you rather that Blizzard not do anything and make it look like they don't even acknowledge the unit?
Exactly.
Carrier.
Carrier is a T3 unit that serves exactly that purpose, and it doesn't suck like Ultras. Your point?
The problem with Archons is that they weren't very usable after just firing off a storm like Blizzard intended, because the enemy had a year and a half to kill the thing. Now imagine that, except waiting just a year. It's definitely a needed improvement.
lolwat? carriers suck just as much as ultras, probably more now that the ultras been getting at least some useful buffs. only time they are useful is 2v2. 3v3. 4v4. even then mass void rays is a much better use of money. Carriers serve no purpose other than to lose the builder the game or act as a embarrassment unit, ala scout.
tell me what units that can attack air the carrier can cost-effectively beat Ghost, Sentry, archon, Queen, Phoenix. lol.
Every race has one air AND one ground unit that completely decimates carriers Terran: Mass M&M on ground, mass vikings in air. BC's with yamato beat carriers as well. Zerg: Mass hydras on ground, mass corrupters in air Protoss: Blink stalkers on ground, void rays in the air. + Show Spoiler +
probably will never happen, but 1 mothership can neuter infinite carriers with 1 vortex, because of the nature of interceptors they will keep flying until they all get sucked in. trust me i've tried it before with 10+carriers, it takes 5 seconds max for all the interceptors to dissapear.
On June 02 2010 10:39 Zutta wrote: swweeeeeet! archons build a little faster? good thing theyre still a completly unless unit (aside from mass speedling, which, who really does that in 1v1). why doesnt the TOSS unless unit get buffs like the zergs ultra does. and what about the pointless terran units......... o wait they dont have any
Would you rather that Blizzard not do anything and make it look like they don't even acknowledge the unit?
Exactly.
Carrier.
Carrier is a T3 unit that serves exactly that purpose, and it doesn't suck like Ultras. Your point?
The problem with Archons is that they weren't very usable after just firing off a storm like Blizzard intended, because the enemy had a year and a half to kill the thing. Now imagine that, except waiting just a year. It's definitely a needed improvement.
lolwat? carriers suck just as much as ultras, probably more now that the ultras been getting at least some useful buffs. only time they are useful is 2v2. 3v3. 4v4. even then mass void rays is a much better use of money. Carriers serve no purpose other than to lose the builder the game or act as a embarrassment unit, ala scout.
tell me what units that can attack air the carrier can cost-effectively beat Ghost, Sentry, archon, Queen, Phoenix. lol.
Every race has one air AND one ground unit that completely decimates carriers Terran: Mass M&M on ground, mass vikings in air. BC's with yamato beat carriers as well. Zerg: Mass hydras on ground, mass corrupters in air Protoss: Blink stalkers on ground, void rays in the air. + Show Spoiler +
probably will never happen, but 1 mothership can neuter infinite carriers with 1 vortex, because of the nature of interceptors they will keep flying until they all get sucked in. trust me i've tried it before with 10+carriers, it takes 5 seconds max for all the interceptors to dissapear.
Wait, you see people who do nothing but mass Carriers?
On June 02 2010 09:07 pash1k wrote: It would be awesome if people didn't complain about at least one patch. This patch was perfectly fine - it didn't break anything, and it fine tuned some things. If anything people were given what they wanted.
tl;dr QQ moar pls
I couldn't agree more. I read the patch notes and though "Hey, finally a patch that's decent", and then saw pages upon pages of bitching, including people saying vikings are now useless!?!?!
On June 02 2010 09:07 pash1k wrote: It would be awesome if people didn't complain about at least one patch. This patch was perfectly fine - it didn't break anything, and it fine tuned some things. If anything people were given what they wanted.
tl;dr QQ moar pls
I couldn't agree more. I read the patch notes and though "Hey, finally a patch that's decent", and then saw pages upon pages of bitching, including people saying vikings are now useless!?!?!
The "lolol vikings suck now" is a bad attempt by people to say that Blizzard's patching sucks. Apparently, they think Blizzard's intention was to nerf the Viking so that it wasn't so centralized in TvT*
*Read: Blizzard "wanted them to never be used and thought this change fulfilled it"
On June 02 2010 05:22 Chill wrote: Why is it 2.9531? Does Blizzard really need accuracy to 4 decimal places?
61/64 = 0.953125
edit: the technical reason why we need a power of 2: + Show Spoiler +
To be more specific, 2.95 does not have an exact representation in finite precision floating point arithmetic because the number is binary when in the computer. If the denominator is a power of 2, however, the number can be represented exactly. You'll accumulate roundoff error over time because you are adding 2.95+error to itself every timestep. It's probably not a big deal; most likely it would just give your hydralisk has an unnoticeably small random variation in speed, but it might lead to weird collision detection bugs so it's best to just remove the ambiguity and work in powers of 2.
Real-world example of when counting time in a base-10 increment instead of a base-2 increment caused roundoff error that made a Patriot Missile system fail during the Gulf War: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RoundoffError.html
omg i feel dumb. anyway loving the buff to the ultra even tho the 2.95 would have been better :p but apparently not. Mass Oveerseer ftw? :p
On June 02 2010 11:22 Salv wrote: Considering that the archon serves the roll as an emergency unit, the morph should take more like two or three seconds. Why the delay at all? Is there some imbalance if Protoss players could merge their HT almost instantly? Either way, it's better than nothing.
On June 02 2010 11:22 Salv wrote: Considering that the archon serves the roll as an emergency unit, the morph should take more like two or three seconds. Why the delay at all? Is there some imbalance if Protoss players could merge their HT almost instantly? Either way, it's better than nothing.
yes. it would be imba
While I agree that morph shouldn't be instant, I can't think of any situation that would make it imbalanced.
On June 02 2010 10:39 Zutta wrote: swweeeeeet! archons build a little faster? good thing theyre still a completly unless unit (aside from mass speedling, which, who really does that in 1v1). why doesnt the TOSS unless unit get buffs like the zergs ultra does. and what about the pointless terran units......... o wait they dont have any
Would you rather that Blizzard not do anything and make it look like they don't even acknowledge the unit?
On June 02 2010 11:22 Salv wrote: Considering that the archon serves the roll as an emergency unit, the morph should take more like two or three seconds. Why the delay at all? Is there some imbalance if Protoss players could merge their HT almost instantly? Either way, it's better than nothing.
yes. it would be imba
While I agree that morph shouldn't be instant, I can't think of any situation that would make it imbalanced.
The current ability for P to have energy upgrade then warp + storm is already a pain, now if they just turn into archons in 3 seconds it'd make their defensive abilities even better. Would this be imba? Dunno, but it certainly would pose a significant challenge imo.
On June 02 2010 12:31 Atrio wrote: I think the Viking nerf was for a more diverse TvT since Vikings were massed so much.
We appreciate their feelings, they just need to be better at doing this
On June 02 2010 10:39 Zutta wrote: swweeeeeet! archons build a little faster? good thing theyre still a completly unless unit (aside from mass speedling, which, who really does that in 1v1). why doesnt the TOSS unless unit get buffs like the zergs ultra does. and what about the pointless terran units......... o wait they dont have any
Would you rather that Blizzard not do anything and make it look like they don't even acknowledge the unit?
Exactly.
Carrier.
Mothership
Quite a few patches actually pertained to the Mothership, you know >.>
Decent patch, but all these Zerg changes make me feel like they're still not really comfortable with the race. It's not just little tweaks, they keep adding and removing abilities and swapping things around. Zerg still doesn't feel finished.
On June 02 2010 11:13 psion wrote: To those saying the Overlord/seer speed increase makes the upgrade more strategic, I have one word: Warpgate.
What?
Yeah I was thinking the same thing, lol.
I think he's trying to compare the increased cost of overlord speed to the cost of getting warpgates. Although both are (were) intuitive upgrades, something you'd be stupid not to get given the cost.
Can anyone log on today? I keep getting an error all day saying that my "client version not recognized by the battle.net service" or something.
First time I tried there was a message up saying that they were updating and if we couldn't log on to just be patient, but now the message is down and I still can't get on.
If it's just taking a while then all good, but if I can be downloading (or doing whatever) to get online that'd be better. So please let me know
On June 02 2010 10:39 Zutta wrote: swweeeeeet! archons build a little faster? good thing theyre still a completly unless unit (aside from mass speedling, which, who really does that in 1v1). why doesnt the TOSS unless unit get buffs like the zergs ultra does. and what about the pointless terran units......... o wait they dont have any
Would you rather that Blizzard not do anything and make it look like they don't even acknowledge the unit?
Exactly.
Carrier.
Carrier is a T3 unit that serves exactly that purpose, and it doesn't suck like Ultras. Your point?
The problem with Archons is that they weren't very usable after just firing off a storm like Blizzard intended, because the enemy had a year and a half to kill the thing. Now imagine that, except waiting just a year. It's definitely a needed improvement.
lolwat? carriers suck just as much as ultras, probably more now that the ultras been getting at least some useful buffs. only time they are useful is 2v2. 3v3. 4v4. even then mass void rays is a much better use of money. Carriers serve no purpose other than to lose the builder the game or act as a embarrassment unit, ala scout.
tell me what units that can attack air the carrier can cost-effectively beat Ghost, Sentry, archon, Queen, Phoenix. lol.
Every race has one air AND one ground unit that completely decimates carriers Terran: Mass M&M on ground, mass vikings in air. BC's with yamato beat carriers as well. Zerg: Mass hydras on ground, mass corrupters in air Protoss: Blink stalkers on ground, void rays in the air. + Show Spoiler +
probably will never happen, but 1 mothership can neuter infinite carriers with 1 vortex, because of the nature of interceptors they will keep flying until they all get sucked in. trust me i've tried it before with 10+carriers, it takes 5 seconds max for all the interceptors to dissapear.
Wait, you see people who do nothing but mass Carriers?
carriers are a giant resource sink. what unit can u get with carriers other than zlots? either you cut carriers to get other units or you dont get many other units so you have enough carriers to theoretically do something. either way all the above still destroy carriers, air units wont really care what u have on the ground and zlots arnt really good at taking out mass marines/hydras
On June 02 2010 10:58 eNtitY~ wrote: Why isn't there any word on the games not counting??
-_-
Right! Im still stuck at 4 placement matches left... Ladders are back and i can see my placement, but games still not count!
are you sure? It says I have 4 placement matches left as well but my games are recorded on the ladder. Yesterday they weren't recording so maybe check again tomorrow
On June 02 2010 10:58 eNtitY~ wrote: Why isn't there any word on the games not counting??
-_-
Right! Im still stuck at 4 placement matches left... Ladders are back and i can see my placement, but games still not count!
are you sure? It says I have 4 placement matches left as well but my games are recorded on the ladder. Yesterday they weren't recording so maybe check again tomorrow
Yea, it says that for me too, but all my games are recorded properly.
probably could have fixed tvt and tvp by leaving vikings as they were and making an adjustment to the raven's energy regen rate so PDD becomes usable faster (but not cheaper, as that would break just about every matchup).
On June 02 2010 10:39 Zutta wrote: swweeeeeet! archons build a little faster? good thing theyre still a completly unless unit (aside from mass speedling, which, who really does that in 1v1). why doesnt the TOSS unless unit get buffs like the zergs ultra does. and what about the pointless terran units......... o wait they dont have any
Would you rather that Blizzard not do anything and make it look like they don't even acknowledge the unit?
Exactly.
Carrier.
Mothership
Quite a few patches actually pertained to the Mothership, you know >.>
Yep, and we are all just still waiting on the one that says;
Mothership has been removed from the game. We finally realized that the players are indeed right and this is a massive waste of resources and space. In short we would like to apologize to protoss for hyping this for years to be the end all be all single unit of awesome sauce. Then delivering this massive steaming pile of poo, that was nothing more then a giant arbiter that failed to even do as good a job as that.
On June 02 2010 13:27 Luddite wrote: noooo my vikings Now I'll have to actually build something besides pure vikings against zerg.
You built pure vikings against Zerg? Don't you get destroyed by their complete Tier 2 tech? I mean, Vikings seem to die quite fast against equal cost hydra or muta. And Fungal Growth can negate your huge range advantage.
I actually thought this patch was pretty good. I play zerg and nothing I saw really made me ragequit SC2 for a week like most other patches. Sure ultra is still kinda weak, but its getting there. Roach upgrade I love. OL speed I think was pretty needed, 50/50 is a little imba for such an amazing upgrade.
Did not see the other changes to races as very game changing. I think viking range may be better suited at 7 or 8 with same damage but idk.
On June 02 2010 13:27 Luddite wrote: noooo my vikings Now I'll have to actually build something besides pure vikings against zerg.
You built pure vikings against Zerg? Don't you get destroyed by their complete Tier 2 tech? I mean, Vikings seem to die quite fast against equal cost hydra or muta. And Fungal Growth can negate your huge range advantage.
On June 02 2010 13:27 Luddite wrote: noooo my vikings Now I'll have to actually build something besides pure vikings against zerg.
You built pure vikings against Zerg? Don't you get destroyed by their complete Tier 2 tech? I mean, Vikings seem to die quite fast against equal cost hydra or muta. And Fungal Growth can negate your huge range advantage.
Bronze league man, bronze league.
Who, him or me? Quite sure you don't mean me, but I'm insecure on this board That's what a day long loosing streak does to a man.
On June 02 2010 16:17 Mactavian wrote: Why is the infested Terran still in the game? What a completely useless unit. Just junk the thing.
Yeah, they are pretty weak as a unit, but could be a viable harasser unit. I guess they figure "Hey, we made this cool looking unit, we may as well throw it in and make it available to use."
Now if only they felt the same way about the lurker...
I tried to use spawn infested terran in a few games this morning. Meh eh. Worked alright; when you get a small bunch you can kill enough drones to be annoying. It certainly isn't worth 100 gas per overseer if the only intention is to use them for infested terrans, though.
Its not useless, though. Every weapon we have available for harassment will probably get used as skill levels tend to infinity.
On June 02 2010 16:59 BlueSorc wrote: I tried to use spawn infested terran in a few games this morning. Meh eh. Worked alright; when you get a small bunch you can kill enough drones to be annoying. It certainly isn't worth 100 gas per overseer if the only intention is to use them for infested terrans, though.
Its not useless, though. Every weapon we have available for harassment will probably get used as skill levels tend to infinity.
You're not suppose to get overseers just so you can make infested terrans. Their main purpose is to serve as a detector/scout, as well as a mid/late game harassment unit with their contaminate ability.
Hm, I'd like to see the Ultra use its headbutt not only versus buildings but versus Thors (and Colossi?) as well. That + some other tweak (model size, being able to hit above lings) should enable them to properly engage a terran mech ball and deal some signifikant damage. They would be a counter to armored units in general, as that is what Blizzard is trying to achieve, and a hard counter to Thors in the late game.
Plus, crushing your fat head against a huge towering (as in tower the *building*) robot makes sense.
On June 02 2010 17:04 lightning2k3 wrote: You're not suppose to get overseers just so you can make infested terrans. Their main purpose is to serve as a detector/scout, as well as a mid/late game harassment unit with their contaminate ability.
I think he knows that, but just wanted to try something crazy. Like everybody else and ultralisk
You could maybe find a use for it in 2V2 when you are at 200/200. Although I think zerg would much rather safe the gas and instantly rebuild the army.
Although it would be a wicked win if it worked. Clash armies, fly mass overseer into his base, drop infested terran and contaminate the crap out of every production facility. Nice theoretical GG right there
On June 02 2010 17:11 Xeken wrote: That would be nice and all if the headbutt actually does more dps than kaiser blade.
Wasn't it supposed to?
that's quite the relative term ^^ maybe the headbutt only exists so it doesnt do splash damage to multiple depots. maybe it's "supposed to" pose an edge for the micro-capable: attack a ling next to the building in question in order to splash more damage than the headbutt would deal..
On June 02 2010 17:15 nyshak wrote: Wasn't it supposed to?
Not since patch 13, when ultra went from 25>15+25. Even the dmg buff in patch 13 doesn't make headbutt do more dps than kaiser blade to armored (main point of discussion here).
I didn't realize that. So, yeah, I guess they must fix that first then. Once headbut > kaiser blades vs. a single target (building, Thor) they could implement this. That would also give the zerg player an option to decide what to do: attack the mech ball as a hole with splash or try to snipe the massive units with headbut.
It's funny, I remember watching those campaign demonstration videos where the terran were trying to laser drill that protoss temple and the guy suddenly goes: Commander, those are protoss archons, if they get into our base, they'll tare us to shreds! And the base was guarded by several siege tanks. Not scary at all...
Terran doesn't have a proper air counter to vikings and the ground counters are getting destroyed by tanks before they can do anything. The problem is not viking ground damage at all.
For example in PvP it's phoenix > void ray > carrier > phoenix, while TvT air is Vikings > BCs and that's it, there's no proper counter system, and there isn't any effective ground counter to them either, because of siege tank support and BCs owning thors/marines by themselves. Vikings also have pretty ridiculous range(in BW the only unit that had more than 8 was the siege tank) and they are cost effective against every other air unit in the game, it's vikings > all, unless the other player has more resources invested in his air units(practically only PvP has decent AtA balance).
They said they are willing to add new units if necessary, but their definition of "necessary" is "never", since during the whole beta zerg had less units and was pretty bland and there were tons of complains about air balance. The new units will be pretty much the only selling point for the expansions for players interested in competitive multiplayer, so they are just holding them back.
On June 02 2010 18:09 lololol wrote: Terran doesn't have a proper air counter to vikings and the ground counters are getting destroyed by tanks before they can do anything. The problem is not viking ground damage at all.
For example in PvP it's phoenix > void ray > carrier > phoenix, while TvT air is Vikings > BCs and that's it, there's no proper counter system, and there isn't any effective ground counter to them either, because of siege tank support and BCs owning thors/marines by themselves. Vikings also have pretty ridiculous range(in BW the only unit that had more than 8 was the siege tank) and they are cost effective against every other air unit in the game, it's vikings > all, unless the other player has more resources invested in his air units(practically only PvP has decent AtA balance).
They said they are willing to add new units if necessary, but their definition of "necessary" is "never", since during the whole beta zerg had less units and was pretty bland and there were tons of complains about air balance. The new units will be pretty much the only selling point for the expansions for players interested in competitive multiplayer, so they are just holding them back.
Don't mutas beat vikings at equal resource costs? I imagine corruptors would too but I'm not sure.
Either way Terran need a more effective counter to them, I think Thors should go back to 8(+4) instead of 6(+6). Would at least be a start, really not sure why they changed that, basically forces thors to be anti-muta and nothing else.
Viking ground damage reduced from 14 to 12 makes sense because SCVs required 4 shots to kill so why not Probes/Drones as well?
9R without the need of an upgrade for a basic air unit is ridiculous - 6/7R with a +3/+2R 150/150/100 upgrade is far more balanced
10+4A(2) attack - 8+4A(2) makes light air the direct Viking counter while only losing 2DPS V armored
150M 75G - Terrans have lots of extra minerals in Sc2 due to MULES so gas reduction was unnecessary
Reactors - 2nd Viking should cost +25G to procure or +10BT (50BT for both Vikings would also do)
Marauders: +25G and or Ling speed upgrade/Zealot Charge completely ignores slow
Protoss:
Phoenix damage changed to 10+10L - light air takes the same amount of damage while armor damage reduction is halved
Graviton Beam range = 6 - Cyber Core Upgrade requires Stargate to unlock
Archons deal 2 radius 10 damage enemy splash when killed(even when merging)
MS - Vortex = instant cast duration +5-10 seconds or completely removed in lieu of faster movement speed
Interceptors have a new upgrade that reduces GtA damage by 50% or makes them too fast to be targeted for X seconds(Fleet Beacon would house ability to prevent abuse)
Ludicrous Speed will be Fleets' ability with Rick Moranis voice when activated
Zerg:
Infested Marines 200E - produces 2 Marines and 1 Firebat
Movement speed starts off normal but slows as timer(30 seconds) runs down
Can Burrow and stop timer but Overseer max E = 100 while doing so
Lair 2A Hive 4A
New Hive upgrade - Burrow Regen - increases regen rate of burrowed units by +50%
AOE = within 4 range of Hatchs or 2R of Creep Tumors
Crawlers Unburrow/Burrow speed greatly increased when directly above Creep Tumor
-20% damage for 30 seconds too WC Bliz! Freenzy equally WCish
On June 02 2010 20:07 Zealot_Alec wrote: Viking ground damage reduced from 14 to 12 makes sense because SCVs required 4 shots to kill so why not Probes/Drones as well?
9R without the need of an upgrade for a basic air unit is ridiculous - 6/7R with a +3/+2R 150/150/100 upgrade is far more balanced
10+4A(2) attack - 8+4A(2) makes light air the direct Viking counter while only losing 2DPS V armored
150M 75G - Terrans have lots of extra minerals in Sc2 due to MULES so gas reduction was unnecessary
Reactors - 2nd Viking should cost +25G to procure or +10BT (50BT for both Vikings would also do)
Marauders: +25G and or Ling speed upgrade/Zealot Charge completely ignores slow
Protoss:
Phoenix damage changed to 10+10L - light air takes the same amount of damage while armor damage reduction is halved
Graviton Beam range = 6 - Cyber Core Upgrade requires Stargate to unlock
Archons deal 2 radius 10 damage enemy splash when killed(even when merging)
MS - Vortex = instant cast duration +5-10 seconds or completely removed in lieu of faster movement speed
Interceptors have a new upgrade that reduces GtA damage by 50% or makes them too fast to be targeted for X seconds(Fleet Beacon would house ability to prevent abuse)
Ludicrous Speed will be Fleets' ability with Rick Moranis voice when activated
Zerg:
Infested Marines 200E - produces 2 Marines and 1 Firebat
Movement speed starts off normal but slows as timer(30 seconds) runs down
Can Burrow and stop timer but Overseer max E = 100 while doing so
Lair 2A Hive 4A
New Hive upgrade - Burrow Regen - increases regen rate of burrowed units by +50%
AOE = within 4 range of Hatchs or 2R of Creep Tumors
Crawlers Unburrow/Burrow speed greatly increased when directly above Creep Tumor
-20% damage for 30 seconds too WC Bliz! Freenzy equally WCish
On June 02 2010 05:33 whaTITdoz wrote: Anyone know if this fixed the black mini-map bug in-game or for watching replays? I haven't been able to watch replays since patch 13 because of the black mini-map bug.
If you drag the replay file onto the sc2switcher.exe program, the replay will load w/ the mini-map!
On June 02 2010 05:19 asdfTT123 wrote: LOL! Decreased Archon warp time by 5 seconds? That's the last buff that P needs. Thanks Blizzard for an amazing job well done, as always. -_-
Actually that's a very good buff, at this point in time high templars tend to be tossed asside in favor of collosi, and if it makes it so that once they run out of energy you can change them into archon's (underused imo) It will make more ht gameplay.
On June 02 2010 05:22 Chill wrote: Why is it 2.9531? Does Blizzard really need accuracy to 4 decimal places?
61/64 = 0.953125
edit: the technical reason why we need a power of 2: + Show Spoiler +
To be more specific, 2.95 does not have an exact representation in finite precision floating point arithmetic because the number is binary when in the computer. If the denominator is a power of 2, however, the number can be represented exactly. You'll accumulate roundoff error over time because you are adding 2.95+error to itself every timestep. It's probably not a big deal; most likely it would just give your hydralisk has an unnoticeably small random variation in speed, but it might lead to weird collision detection bugs so it's best to just remove the ambiguity and work in powers of 2.
Real-world example of when counting time in a base-10 increment instead of a base-2 increment caused roundoff error that made a Patriot Missile system fail during the Gulf War: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RoundoffError.html
Thx posts like this one makes TL.net an interesting forum.
I have quickly checked this out in the morning and got the impression that Viking ground attack is not only down from 14 to 12, but also the attack rate down from normal to slow. Can anyone check and confirm?
On June 02 2010 18:09 lololol wrote: Terran doesn't have a proper air counter to vikings and the ground counters are getting destroyed by tanks before they can do anything. The problem is not viking ground damage at all.
For example in PvP it's phoenix > void ray > carrier > phoenix, while TvT air is Vikings > BCs and that's it, there's no proper counter system, and there isn't any effective ground counter to them either, because of siege tank support and BCs owning thors/marines by themselves. Vikings also have pretty ridiculous range(in BW the only unit that had more than 8 was the siege tank) and they are cost effective against every other air unit in the game, it's vikings > all, unless the other player has more resources invested in his air units(practically only PvP has decent AtA balance).
They said they are willing to add new units if necessary, but their definition of "necessary" is "never", since during the whole beta zerg had less units and was pretty bland and there were tons of complains about air balance. The new units will be pretty much the only selling point for the expansions for players interested in competitive multiplayer, so they are just holding them back.
Don't mutas beat vikings at equal resource costs? I imagine corruptors would too but I'm not sure.
Either way Terran need a more effective counter to them, I think Thors should go back to 8(+4) instead of 6(+6). Would at least be a start, really not sure why they changed that, basically forces thors to be anti-muta and nothing else.
No to both, but if the zerg has enough of a resource advantage he can overwhelm the vikings with a big ball of corruptors or mutas(less corruptors are needed compared to mutas), but cost for cost there's simply no way to match them in the air.
On June 02 2010 20:40 gedassan wrote: I have quickly checked this out in the morning and got the impression that Viking ground attack is not only down from 14 to 12, but also the attack rate down from normal to slow. Can anyone check and confirm?
Viking's ground attack cooldown is still 1 second.
On June 02 2010 20:40 gedassan wrote: I have quickly checked this out in the morning and got the impression that Viking ground attack is not only down from 14 to 12, but also the attack rate down from normal to slow. Can anyone check and confirm?
Viking's ground attack cooldown is still 1 second.
On June 02 2010 22:26 Fruscainte wrote: Wait, if Ultra's are as fast as zerglings....if you get the speed upgrade for them does that mean they are as fast as speedlings?
AFAIK Ultras, as of patch 14, are as fast as zerglings. Speedlings outrun them by far.
On June 02 2010 22:26 Fruscainte wrote: Wait, if Ultra's are as fast as zerglings....if you get the speed upgrade for them does that mean they are as fast as speedlings?
Did you even read the patch notes?
They took out the speed upgrade for ultras and just gave it to them by default. LOL imagine how funny an ultralisk would look if it was as fast as a speedling.
I would like to see a little carrier love, but other than that good patch. The ultra is one or two more changes from being balanced and viable. I hope they're working on abilities instead of hp, armor, and speed tweaks.
There's one thing I don't get with the patch, the 100/100 change to speed. I'm not saying I disagree with it, but I just feel ventral sacs sort of got nerfed at the same time. In my opinion, people aren't using enough drops. Might be something that just needs time, though, and not a problem with cost/time of upgrades.
Hi guys i have a little problem, after patch 13 and 14, when i press LOGIN, the game crash. Last time i reinstall my starcraft2 and after that, it works normal, but now it doesn't help. Can someone tell me how to fix that ?
On June 02 2010 18:09 lololol wrote: Terran doesn't have a proper air counter to vikings and the ground counters are getting destroyed by tanks before they can do anything. The problem is not viking ground damage at all.
For example in PvP it's phoenix > void ray > carrier > phoenix, while TvT air is Vikings > BCs and that's it, there's no proper counter system, and there isn't any effective ground counter to them either, because of siege tank support and BCs owning thors/marines by themselves. Vikings also have pretty ridiculous range(in BW the only unit that had more than 8 was the siege tank) and they are cost effective against every other air unit in the game, it's vikings > all, unless the other player has more resources invested in his air units(practically only PvP has decent AtA balance).
They said they are willing to add new units if necessary, but their definition of "necessary" is "never", since during the whole beta zerg had less units and was pretty bland and there were tons of complains about air balance. The new units will be pretty much the only selling point for the expansions for players interested in competitive multiplayer, so they are just holding them back.
Yeah this is true. Actually I think air units, in general, are too powerful in this game. Too many games seem to end up in mass air battles, and it's pretty clear why- you're best counter to air units is usually another air unit. Terran's best counter to almost any air unit is vikings. However- I still think BC/viking beats pure viking.
Yeah this is true. Actually I think air units, in general, are too powerful in this game. Too many games seem to end up in mass air battles, and it's pretty clear why- you're best counter to air units is usually another air unit. Terran's best counter to almost any air unit is vikings. However- I still think BC/viking beats pure viking.
Yeah too true. Stalkers with Blink seem to work pretty well for Protoss, and Hydras and always to be feared, but they aren't the best. Void rays work better for Protoss (especially against BCs) and Corruptors and Brood Lords are just impossible to beat with Zerg. I mean, why go with something that is pretty good, when you could have something great?
On June 02 2010 22:26 Fruscainte wrote: Wait, if Ultra's are as fast as zerglings....if you get the speed upgrade for them does that mean they are as fast as speedlings?
Ultralisk's speed uppgrade was removed. They gave the speed uppgrade for free.
Why buff the burrow aspect of the roaches? 1 Raven and all of it goes down the drain... The only way of popping up under tanks is by playing someone that isn't good at all.
So we go infestors against tanks? Nope, they die while channeling.
On June 03 2010 06:01 osten wrote: I have this question for you
Why buff the burrow aspect of the roaches? 1 Raven and all of it goes down the drain... The only way of popping up under tanks is by playing someone that isn't good at all.
So we go infestors against tanks? Nope, they die while channeling.
So we go ultras? Nope, they come too late.
So Broodlords? Nope, they come too late.
I am (not kidding) switching to terran now.
Instead of crying like a wow player that your clas- I mean race, is too weak, how about you think outside the box and practice? People should stop expecting stuff to be handed to them.
On June 03 2010 06:01 osten wrote: I have this question for you
Why buff the burrow aspect of the roaches? 1 Raven and all of it goes down the drain... The only way of popping up under tanks is by playing someone that isn't good at all.
So we go infestors against tanks? Nope, they die while channeling.
So we go ultras? Nope, they come too late.
So Broodlords? Nope, they come too late.
I am (not kidding) switching to terran now.
While I agree that metal terra is incredibly hard to beat as zerg, I see it as just another reason to stick with zerg. Not being able to fight head-on promotes some innovative gameplay. Just look at the cool vs maka games of the 17173 cup, that was some admirable gameplay.
@ the patch: I think stats-wise, ultralisks are quite viable now. The problem imo is their size. They're so silly big that they block each other or other units.
Ah, you are so so right philosophy. Ocedic you are also correct. But it feels like playing yuris revenge or something. Obvious imbalance turns me off. I'm actually not crying for my "class" but because watching top players isn't as fun when it isn't balanced. I think the other matchups are a lot better balanced.
The problem is that people are approaching ZvT mech the wrong way. They think that they are supposed to win by running into a siege ball. This isn't the case. It didn't work in BW, it's not gonna work now.
Think of the major drawback a mech terran has: Mobility. You're playing zerg, what do you have an abundance of? That's right, mobility. Use it, make him feel like he can't move out, attack production, attack expos, attack supply, attack everywhere where his army isn't at.
maybe Patch 15 will give some buffs to toss. Like I dunno, a carrier that doesnt die if stung by a bee, an archon that doesnt melt by water, a Mothership that you know actually does something worthy of being called a MOTHERSHIP............Or I'll just wait till SC3
All in all I like the patch but they have changed the roach so many times now and can't get them to fit in again. Maybe ultras should walk above lings like colossus, I like that. I also think they should rework overseer again and like I said, give zerg something to do against tanks, maybe using overseer?
On June 03 2010 06:49 gillon wrote: The problem is that people are approaching ZvT mech the wrong way. They think that they are supposed to win by running into a siege ball. This isn't the case. It didn't work in BW, it's not gonna work now.
Think of the major drawback a mech terran has: Mobility. You're playing zerg, what do you have an abundance of? That's right, mobility. Use it, make him feel like he can't move out, attack production, attack expos, attack supply, attack everywhere where his army isn't at.
plz guys stop talking about MOBILITY bullshit, youve probably never played zerg and you think that all zerg are noob and nobody have found the solution while youve found it, thats ridiculous.
So to answer your point quickly. In BW Zerg could deal without a lot of problems with mech army. Goliath didnt rape completely Mutalisk as Thor do, they countered mutalisk but at least terran had to make a good number while now just 2 or 3 thors rape any number of mutalisk. Furthermore, Goliaths were also weaker than thor against grounds units. Thor is just completely retarded : counter very hard air unit and also very strong against every grounds zerg units. So in BW you could fight a mech army as zerg when no you just cant.
With the mobility shit : yes you can drop, yes you can nydus worm, but the terran will play very defensivly so you have to wait until he moves out of his base. Most of time if you drop while he is attacking youit will end up either by base trading (which isnt at the advantage of zerg at all) or either by him completely destroying your base while still able to defend his main because he let some tanks around his buildings which are very hard to kill.
Yes zerg can win against mech terran if the terran make a lot of mistake but at equl skill this is simply not the case.
On June 03 2010 06:01 osten wrote: I have this question for you
Why buff the burrow aspect of the roaches? 1 Raven and all of it goes down the drain... The only way of popping up under tanks is by playing someone that isn't good at all.
So we go infestors against tanks? Nope, they die while channeling.
So we go ultras? Nope, they come too late.
So Broodlords? Nope, they come too late.
I am (not kidding) switching to terran now.
1 raven negates: cloaked ghosts, dark templar, burrowed anything including baneling traps, observers, creep tumors... obviously anything that's cloaked. solution? kill the raven. or you know, scout, and hit somewhere there isn't a raven. also, a raven by itself isn't gonna do anything against a decent number of roaches. autoturrets will get raped with or without burrowed regen increase and HSM requires research investment the T probably won't have made.
do you want an 'i win' button to mech or something? what would be the point of mech then?
On June 03 2010 06:01 osten wrote: I have this question for you
Why buff the burrow aspect of the roaches? 1 Raven and all of it goes down the drain... The only way of popping up under tanks is by playing someone that isn't good at all.
So we go infestors against tanks? Nope, they die while channeling.
So we go ultras? Nope, they come too late.
So Broodlords? Nope, they come too late.
I am (not kidding) switching to terran now.
1 raven negates: cloaked ghosts, dark templar, burrowed anything including baneling traps, observers, creep tumors... obviously anything that's cloaked. solution? kill the raven. or you know, scout, and hit somewhere there isn't a raven. also, a raven by itself isn't gonna do anything against a decent number of roaches. autoturrets will get raped with or without burrowed regen increase and HSM requires research investment the T probably won't have made.
do you want an 'i win' button to mech or something? what would be the point of mech then?
u fucking serious? raven is a detector, it makes burrowed roaches useless because you see and kill them before they get under your army. plus, its not hard for the terran to stick a raven next to his army and a turret in all his bases for detection. hitting a place without detection requires your opponent to be bad. plus, killing a raven is nearly impossible because PDD nullifies basically ALL AA attacks, void ray being the only reasonable exception. plus vikings and tanks outrange everything so you have to run into the army before trying to snipe it.
they need to patch it so you get vision if someone shoots you from a cliff. That shit is so gay ;D Makes tank vs tank extremely lame since you have to save energy and not use MULE's
Well, i like most of the changes, especially since it's the first patch where protoss hasn't received a nerf. The buff to archons is pretty nice, but still isn't as useful as in BW. It just evaporates before he even can land a shot against nearly every enemy.
On June 03 2010 06:01 osten wrote: I have this question for you
Why buff the burrow aspect of the roaches? 1 Raven and all of it goes down the drain... The only way of popping up under tanks is by playing someone that isn't good at all.
So we go infestors against tanks? Nope, they die while channeling.
So we go ultras? Nope, they come too late.
So Broodlords? Nope, they come too late.
I am (not kidding) switching to terran now.
1 raven negates: cloaked ghosts, dark templar, burrowed anything including baneling traps, observers, creep tumors... obviously anything that's cloaked. solution? kill the raven. or you know, scout, and hit somewhere there isn't a raven. also, a raven by itself isn't gonna do anything against a decent number of roaches. autoturrets will get raped with or without burrowed regen increase and HSM requires research investment the T probably won't have made.
do you want an 'i win' button to mech or something? what would be the point of mech then?
u fucking serious? raven is a detector, it makes burrowed roaches useless because you see and kill them before they get under your army. plus, its not hard for the terran to stick a raven next to his army and a turret in all his bases for detection. hitting a place without detection requires your opponent to be bad. plus, killing a raven is nearly impossible because PDD nullifies basically ALL AA attacks, void ray being the only reasonable exception. plus vikings and tanks outrange everything so you have to run into the army before trying to snipe it.
i'm not talking about a-moving your army into his and expecting it to work out, obviously you have to be more opportunistic than that. and you make it sound like terran's gonna have every unit and every structure at all times which is totally unrealistic.
there's just plenty of opportunities to fuck up terran's perfect little mech ball before it ever gets to that point. if you just sit back and let him do whatever he wants for 20 minutes, you kinda deserve to lose.
at the beginning of the beta people were bitching and moaning about how unfair zerg was cos of banelings among other things so yeah, i don't have to wonder.
On June 03 2010 09:22 Orange Goblin wrote: I wonder how this argument had been if Zerg had been this strong late-game...
They are strong late-game. Broodlords and Ultralisks are fine. It's the transition that kills people. And frankly, that's exactly what this patch helps--the fact that the speed upgrade no longer needs to be researched reduces the time required for Ultras to be useful.
Granted, I think speeding the transition to Broodlords might have had a bigger impact.
Didn't read the whole thread so sorry if it was already mentioned, but I think they fucked up the bonus points by this patch. I had over 100 left, then before patch it jumped to ~200k and after patch I have 0 and they didn't add after few hours. Is this intentional to test sth or just another little bug?
On June 03 2010 06:01 osten wrote: I have this question for you
Why buff the burrow aspect of the roaches? 1 Raven and all of it goes down the drain... The only way of popping up under tanks is by playing someone that isn't good at all.
So we go infestors against tanks? Nope, they die while channeling.
So we go ultras? Nope, they come too late.
So Broodlords? Nope, they come too late.
I am (not kidding) switching to terran now.
1 raven negates: cloaked ghosts, dark templar, burrowed anything including baneling traps, observers, creep tumors... obviously anything that's cloaked. solution? kill the raven. or you know, scout, and hit somewhere there isn't a raven. also, a raven by itself isn't gonna do anything against a decent number of roaches. autoturrets will get raped with or without burrowed regen increase and HSM requires research investment the T probably won't have made.
do you want an 'i win' button to mech or something? what would be the point of mech then?
u fucking serious? raven is a detector, it makes burrowed roaches useless because you see and kill them before they get under your army. plus, its not hard for the terran to stick a raven next to his army and a turret in all his bases for detection. hitting a place without detection requires your opponent to be bad. plus, killing a raven is nearly impossible because PDD nullifies basically ALL AA attacks, void ray being the only reasonable exception. plus vikings and tanks outrange everything so you have to run into the army before trying to snipe it.
i'm not talking about a-moving your army into his and expecting it to work out, obviously you have to be more opportunistic than that. and you make it sound like terran's gonna have every unit and every structure at all times which is totally unrealistic.
there's just plenty of opportunities to fuck up terran's perfect little mech ball before it ever gets to that point. if you just sit back and let him do whatever he wants for 20 minutes, you kinda deserve to lose.
So you're basically saying that Zerg players should drop, burrow, harass, counter, nydus and flank the Terra to win, while the Terra should just a-move.
On June 03 2010 06:01 osten wrote: I have this question for you
Why buff the burrow aspect of the roaches? 1 Raven and all of it goes down the drain... The only way of popping up under tanks is by playing someone that isn't good at all.
So we go infestors against tanks? Nope, they die while channeling.
So we go ultras? Nope, they come too late.
So Broodlords? Nope, they come too late.
I am (not kidding) switching to terran now.
1 raven negates: cloaked ghosts, dark templar, burrowed anything including baneling traps, observers, creep tumors... obviously anything that's cloaked. solution? kill the raven. or you know, scout, and hit somewhere there isn't a raven. also, a raven by itself isn't gonna do anything against a decent number of roaches. autoturrets will get raped with or without burrowed regen increase and HSM requires research investment the T probably won't have made.
do you want an 'i win' button to mech or something? what would be the point of mech then?
u fucking serious? raven is a detector, it makes burrowed roaches useless because you see and kill them before they get under your army. plus, its not hard for the terran to stick a raven next to his army and a turret in all his bases for detection. hitting a place without detection requires your opponent to be bad. plus, killing a raven is nearly impossible because PDD nullifies basically ALL AA attacks, void ray being the only reasonable exception. plus vikings and tanks outrange everything so you have to run into the army before trying to snipe it.
i'm not talking about a-moving your army into his and expecting it to work out, obviously you have to be more opportunistic than that. and you make it sound like terran's gonna have every unit and every structure at all times which is totally unrealistic.
there's just plenty of opportunities to fuck up terran's perfect little mech ball before it ever gets to that point. if you just sit back and let him do whatever he wants for 20 minutes, you kinda deserve to lose.
So you're basically saying that Zerg players should drop, burrow, harass, counter, nydus and flank the Terra to win, while the Terra should just a-move.
exactly. a T must commit his immobile army to a well timed and perfect push, while a Z can macro up and constantly harass/distract him.
i don't its because a bug but many times after patch it dropped me from the game. I thought it was my connection but when game freeze i checked speed and it was as it should be so my question is do you have the problem with dropp in game?
Am I the only one who thinks the main problem with the ZvT matchup is thors? They make mutas completely unviable. If Thors splash dmg vs air was tones down a bit at least Zerg could pick away at the terran army w/ muta harassment, etc.
im playing terran and alaways making rines thors rauders no hellions no siegies and i think its preety well startegy for TvZ but before patch with researching neural parasite it was nonsense because infestors had taken thors and kill you by our own units and now its a bit harder for zerg to cought them.
Funny how alot of people saying they will switch to terran, im not saying terran is the best race i dont think any race is best they have all their ups and downs,
But everytime you think a race is the best you will switch? That's so childish and silly lol
'Oh noes they nerfed tanks abit, lets go back to zerg'
'damn! they nerfed our larvas, oh well guess i'll go protoss they can warp stuff!'
Come on, find new ways to win with ur race, people give up way to easily
On June 04 2010 01:30 CrunkOwns wrote: Am I the only one who thinks the main problem with the ZvT matchup is thors? They make mutas completely unviable. If Thors splash dmg vs air was tones down a bit at least Zerg could pick away at the terran army w/ muta harassment, etc.
i think it's the thor's range which is the problem.
mutas can't kill the thor when there's a million marines standing at his feet.
On June 04 2010 03:03 Delilah wrote: Funny how alot of people saying they will switch to terran, im not saying terran is the best race i dont think any race is best they have all their ups and downs,
But everytime you think a race is the best you will switch? That's so childish and silly lol
'Oh noes they nerfed tanks abit, lets go back to zerg'
'damn! they nerfed our larvas, oh well guess i'll go protoss they can warp stuff!'
Come on, find new ways to win with ur race, people give up way to easily
I haven't played sc2 for weeks now, but I don't thing it's a 1-change thing. Of course changing after 1 change would be childish, specially if you don't wait to see if they rollback (like, changing to Z when cancelling an egg would give you larvae back).
On the other hand, the Terran buffs/Z nerfs have been done along lots of patches, and they haven't been touched in all the patches that came before.
To be fair, I didn't play T at the begin of the beta because I found them weak vs Z. But after all the changes I considered switching to T. If I kept playing SC2 I would be playing T by now.
I can see how you think switching race is silly, but playing uphill this bad 1/3 of matchups actually takes its toll. I try to learn from losses which is exactly why it's so frustrating to come to the conclution that I need to do SO much more to win than the terran. When I watch the replay and he plays like a complete moron I mean.. At some point you want to at least be able to win when you are clearly a better player.
EPT
. Facing zergs will be a lot more difficult now though.
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