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On May 24 2010 23:13 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 22:52 infinity2k9 wrote:
I don't understand the constant use of the term casuals here. What i'd consider casual gamers aren't the kind of people who would even buy Starcraft 2 in the first place. Even the average BW/WC3 player would like the features we all want. I'am sorry to say it that way, but you have no idea what your talking about. blizzard and carnessa know what games have become today. games are not anymore restricted to a bunch of computer nerds like we where 12 years ago. since a few years there was a huge evolution in the gameindustry. games like WoW, farmville and Wii have changed the shape of the gaming world.
Also before that there was and is warcraft3 which has/had so many "casual" gamers in it. look at the huge variety of custom content. there are rpgs towerdefenses etc. so many different styles and games.but battle.net2 and starcraft2 do not exceptionaly focus on the new "casual" consumer. they just realize that their products will have much, much more success if they get those people into their game and their community. blizzard did, and does alot for the hardcore gamers. they listen to the hardcore community the most if you think about it. but they also know what the casual players want. they learned it from WoW and carnessa learned it from his experience with xbox life. so in one hand, blizzard does get feedback from the hardcore and professional players to improve the game, and in the other hand they try to create an environment where casual players are motivated to be part of!
Starcraft also had a huge variation of styles and games. I mean HUGE. I can't count the number of unique UMS games I have played.
So if I understand correctly from the rest of your post, then you say its okay if they slash basic features so the casual gamers won't have to deal with them. Which I don't understand why the use of basic features would stop any 'casual' user from not enjoying the game.
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On May 24 2010 19:26 Inori wrote:
As a software engineer I feel obligated to jump in and defend my colleagues a bit.
Don't diss SC2 developers. Don't diss bnet 2.0 developers. They're just normal adequate human beings doing their everyday job just like everybody else. They're doing what they are told to do by project managers, who decide most of the software changes. In SE there are a lot of situations where programmer doesn't agree with PM but he's better off keeping to himself and doing the job if he wants to keep the job.
I think you don't seem to understand that they delayed StarCraft II for a year because of Battle.net 2. The huge delay it caused made the nerds expect something that would satisfy them big time. But what the nerds got when Blizzard unveiled it is a half-assed product with Facebook integration.
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There is no such thing as a casual gamer. He is an excuse to shove shit down your throat. You don't appreciate the taste of shit? MAYBE YOU'RE TOO HARDCORE. MAYBE YOU NEED TO BE MORE CASUAL.
You think a casual gamer doesn't want chat channels, LAN, or any of that good stuff? WHY NOT? YOU THINK "THE CASUAL GAMER" IS SOME KIND OF RETARD? If something matters to you, then you're HARDCORE. If you don't give a shit, you're CASUAL.
"THE CASUAL GAMER" is an invention by Blizzard's marketing department. Some fictionalized ignoramus who loves the buckets and buckets of shit shoveled into his mouth. "OHHH NOM NOM NOM YUM YUM BLIZZARD SHIT IS THE GOOD SHIT." "THE CASUAL GAMER" is some apathetic tool with no discerning appetite who'll eat whatever shit he's offered.
"THE CASUAL GAMER" is easy to cater to, as he has no desires, demands or concerns! If you're only disappointing EVERY. SINGLE. HARDCORE. player in the world, fear not, because "THE CASUAL GAMER" will still buy it!
Blizzard is just using "THE CASUAL GAMER" to deprive you of basic functionality in an effort to achieve greater control over your gaming experience. Because you care, you're HARDCORE and you're just not the target demographic. SORRY. "THE CASUAL GAMER" is a fucking myth.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 24 2010 23:52 HalfAmazing wrote:
There is no such thing as a casual gamer. He is an excuse to shove shit down your throat. You don't appreciate the taste of shit? MAYBE YOU'RE TOO HARDCORE. MAYBE YOU NEED TO BE MORE CASUAL.
You think a casual gamer doesn't want chat channels, LAN, or any of that good stuff? WHY NOT? YOU THINK "THE CASUAL GAMER" IS SOME KIND OF RETARD? If something matters to you, then you're HARDCORE. If you don't give a shit, you're CASUAL.
"THE CASUAL GAMER" is an invention by Blizzard's marketing department. Some fictionalized ignoramus who loves the buckets and buckets of shit shoveled into his mouth. "OHHH NOM NOM NOM YUM YUM BLIZZARD SHIT IS THE GOOD SHIT." "THE CASUAL GAMER" is some apathetic tool with no discerning appetite who'll eat whatever shit he's offered.
"THE CASUAL GAMER" is easy to cater to, as he has no desires, demands or concerns! If you're only disappointing EVERY. SINGLE. HARDCORE. player in the world, fear not, because "THE CASUAL GAMER" will still buy it!
Blizzard is just using "THE CASUAL GAMER" to deprive you of basic functionality in an effort to achieve greater control over your gaming experience. Because you care, you're HARDCORE and you're just not the target demographic. SORRY. "THE CASUAL GAMER" is a fucking myth.
lol, that's true and amusing ^^
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After reading some of these posts, I have hope. I have hope for hackers, I hope they can hack the game and create an actual enjoyable multiplayer experience. Blizzard did well on the actual game, but it's very ironic that they fucked up so bad on the things we all thought would be easy.
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The bnet 2.0 experiment is this 'cater for the casual gamer' product, its a flop like all those lame hollywood films that go stright to DVD and then the bargain bin because nobody wants it. And we're voicing our anger because we know blizzard can do better, they're reputation is on the line and if they don't even meet us half way it will only be a matter of time before some cool hackers answers our prayers.
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On May 24 2010 23:52 HalfAmazing wrote:
There is no such thing as a casual gamer. He is an excuse to shove shit down your throat. You don't appreciate the taste of shit? MAYBE YOU'RE TOO HARDCORE. MAYBE YOU NEED TO BE MORE CASUAL.
You think a casual gamer doesn't want chat channels, LAN, or any of that good stuff? WHY NOT? YOU THINK "THE CASUAL GAMER" IS SOME KIND OF RETARD? If something matters to you, then you're HARDCORE. If you don't give a shit, you're CASUAL.
"THE CASUAL GAMER" is an invention by Blizzard's marketing department. Some fictionalized ignoramus who loves the buckets and buckets of shit shoveled into his mouth. "OHHH NOM NOM NOM YUM YUM BLIZZARD SHIT IS THE GOOD SHIT." "THE CASUAL GAMER" is some apathetic tool with no discerning appetite who'll eat whatever shit he's offered.
"THE CASUAL GAMER" is easy to cater to, as he has no desires, demands or concerns! If you're only disappointing EVERY. SINGLE. HARDCORE. player in the world, fear not, because "THE CASUAL GAMER" will still buy it!
Blizzard is just using "THE CASUAL GAMER" to deprive you of basic functionality in an effort to achieve greater control over your gaming experience. Because you care, you're HARDCORE and you're just not the target demographic. SORRY. "THE CASUAL GAMER" is a fucking myth.
Agree 100%
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lol, the casual gamer (IE the one that has no desires to play competitively and enjoys achievements and all this "fluff" so to speak) certainly does exist, and in large numbers. However, this still doesn't justify all the features left out. To appeal to a casual gamer you just need a lot of marketing (I don't think that's really an issue here), very easy to set up matchmaking, achievements etc., and easy to find/play custom games. There's no reason to leave out LAN options or chat functionality or a better ranking/ladder system because these casual gamers exist, because they can simply ignore that stuff if they want to.
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On May 24 2010 23:52 HalfAmazing wrote:
There is no such thing as a casual gamer. He is an excuse to shove shit down your throat. You don't appreciate the taste of shit? MAYBE YOU'RE TOO HARDCORE. MAYBE YOU NEED TO BE MORE CASUAL.
You think a casual gamer doesn't want chat channels, LAN, or any of that good stuff? WHY NOT? YOU THINK "THE CASUAL GAMER" IS SOME KIND OF RETARD? If something matters to you, then you're HARDCORE. If you don't give a shit, you're CASUAL.
"THE CASUAL GAMER" is an invention by Blizzard's marketing department. Some fictionalized ignoramus who loves the buckets and buckets of shit shoveled into his mouth. "OHHH NOM NOM NOM YUM YUM BLIZZARD SHIT IS THE GOOD SHIT." "THE CASUAL GAMER" is some apathetic tool with no discerning appetite who'll eat whatever shit he's offered.
"THE CASUAL GAMER" is easy to cater to, as he has no desires, demands or concerns! If you're only disappointing EVERY. SINGLE. HARDCORE. player in the world, fear not, because "THE CASUAL GAMER" will still buy it!
Blizzard is just using "THE CASUAL GAMER" to deprive you of basic functionality in an effort to achieve greater control over your gaming experience. Because you care, you're HARDCORE and you're just not the target demographic. SORRY. "THE CASUAL GAMER" is a fucking myth.
No, they DO exist. THEY come from things like C&C and WOW. Why would you BUY those games if you're NOT casual?
But seriously, there are casual gamers. Most of them are age 20ish-40 women who do "microgaming". They pay the most for in game content and they constantly flip games for the newest Zombies vs Plants. I thought my mom (yeah, my mom) was odd that she did that, but it's now becoming the norm. And it's a big cash cow. Blizzard is trying to get that demographic because they have the money, but they normally only buy smaller games. So you can see Blizzard's active attempt to get the demographic.
http://www.1pstart.com/women-dominate-casual-gaming/ (Read the title)
http://www.forbes.com/2008/03/13/casual-gaming-women-tech-personal-cx_bc_0314casual.html
http://news.vgchartz.com/news.php?id=5995
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/17/technology/17drill.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704882404574463652777885432.html (Activision is mentioned in this one)
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2006/10/7922.ars
Now does the marketing make sense? Does the UI make sense? Does the censorship make sense? It just follows this research (and much more). They took the man who implemented casual gaming into Xbox (Xbox arcade) and made him head of Bnet 2.0
There is also a lot of research into achievements and casual gaming. I cannot find it right now because I think it was a few psychology papers from journals, but they are finding this demographic and they are finding they have the money. You know what else you find? They want the "fluff"/achievements.
PS. RANDOM CAPS is very annoying at least to me. You MAY want to not use them. It will get your point across better.
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On May 25 2010 00:32 PROJECTILE wrote:
lol, the casual gamer (IE the one that has no desires to play competitively and enjoys achievements and all this "fluff" so to speak) certainly does exist, and in large numbers. However, this still doesn't justify all the features left out. To appeal to a casual gamer you just need a lot of marketing (I don't think that's really an issue here), very easy to set up matchmaking, achievements etc., and easy to find/play custom games. There's no reason to leave out LAN options or chat functionality or a better ranking/ladder system because these casual gamers exist, because they can simply ignore that stuff if they want to.
But development time... that's the problem.
Real solution: delay the game.
Solution they will use: send out the game telling everyone it will be fixed, then, well, umm, oh! It was just a bug that it wasn't there! Oh wait, it's now an unfixable bug! Sorry! Wait until SC3! Don't worry, it's only $60. Did I mention you will get into the beta if you preorder it?
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On May 25 2010 00:37 rackdude wrote:
Now does the marketing make sense? Does the UI make sense? Does the censorship make sense?
Nope. If it makes sense to you, you should consider a career in marketing.
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This thread is getting absolutely ridiculous.
It is turning into a bunch of people trying to find a target for their frustration rather than figuring out something constructive to do. If you think they aren't listening to anyone, then why bitch about everything? If you think they SHOULD listen to everyone, back up that belief with some damn action. Make a constructive post about exactly what is the problem and a suggestion or two on how to fix it. And for the love of god, please back up your statements.
I am so sick of every single person on here bitching just to bitch. There is such a thing as constructive complaints, but 80% of the most recent posts on this thread have definitely not fallen into that category.
Oh, and the casual gamer is not a myth. You are thinking in absolutes, which quite often leads to hasty assumptions. Some people care a lot; they are hardcore. Some people don't care at all; they are casual gamers. Some people care a little bit, others a bit more, and others even more. There is more than just "care" and "not care." There are shades of gray.
Seriously, if we expect to change anything, we really need to rally together behind a concrete idea, supported by fact, and present a few possible solutions. Saying "Blizzard is retarded" and arguing about who is to blame is both juvenile and, if anything, counter-productive.
This thread could really be a vantage point for a huge community-wide movement. If you really believe Blizzard just wants money, you can't just say that they're retarded and that they need to focus on the hardcore gamers. If you really believe they are that greedy, then try appealing to what you think would affect them.
To effect change, you have to appeal to those who can directly change things, and if you think what motivates those people is money, show them how many people really care. Those polls were great. I'd love to see more stuff like that.
Although, it might be nice to wait for release, because honestly, regardless of what seemingly self-contradictory statements have come out of the mouth of Blizzard, we don't know for sure what Bnet 2.0 will have in store for us until it's officially released. So now is the ideal time to gather data such as just how many people are displeased with the system and what needs to be integrated. There have been some great posts in this thread in that regard, but unfortunately the seem to be garbled by all the self-righteous Blizzard hate that has flooded this thread, especially recently.
Come on, we are Starcraft players, many of us long-time veterans. We know all about having a concise plan of attack and executing it effectively. So let's apply that concept here, too, so that we can actually give the people behind this system that we so desperately want to love some food for thought.
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This thread is getting way out of hand.
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On May 25 2010 00:48 Brad wrote:
This thread is getting way out of hand.
Isn't that almost the idea?
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On May 25 2010 00:42 HalfAmazing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 00:37 rackdude wrote:
Now does the marketing make sense? Does the UI make sense? Does the censorship make sense?
Nope. If it makes sense to you, you should consider a career in marketing.
It doesn't make sense to you because you are not the market it's supposed to make sense for. Obviously, you know that because you read the links. So, can you elaborate why it doesn't make sense to you?
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On May 25 2010 00:45 Seltsam wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
This thread is getting absolutely ridiculous.
It is turning into a bunch of people trying to find a target for their frustration rather than figuring out something constructive to do. If you think they aren't listening to anyone, then why bitch about everything? If you think they SHOULD listen to everyone, back up that belief with some damn action. Make a constructive post about exactly what is the problem and a suggestion or two on how to fix it. And for the love of god, please back up your statements.
I am so sick of every single person on here bitching just to bitch. There is such a thing as constructive complaints, but 80% of the most recent posts on this thread have definitely not fallen into that category.
Oh, and the casual gamer is not a myth. You are thinking in absolutes, which quite often leads to hasty assumptions. Some people care a lot; they are hardcore. Some people don't care at all; they are casual gamers. Some people care a little bit, others a bit more, and others even more. There is more than just "care" and "not care." There are shades of gray.
Seriously, if we expect to change anything, we really need to rally together behind a concrete idea, supported by fact, and present a few possible solutions. Saying "Blizzard is retarded" and arguing about who is to blame is both juvenile and, if anything, counter-productive.
This thread could really be a vantage point for a huge community-wide movement. If you really believe Blizzard just wants money, you can't just say that they're retarded and that they need to focus on the hardcore gamers. If you really believe they are that greedy, then try appealing to what you think would affect them.
To effect change, you have to appeal to those who can directly change things, and if you think what motivates those people is money, show them how many people really care. Those polls were great. I'd love to see more stuff like that.
Although, it might be nice to wait for release, because honestly, regardless of what seemingly self-contradictory statements have come out of the mouth of Blizzard, we don't know for sure what Bnet 2.0 will have in store for us until it's officially released. So now is the ideal time to gather data such as just how many people are displeased with the system and what needs to be integrated. There have been some great posts in this thread in that regard, but unfortunately the seem to be garbled by all the self-righteous Blizzard hate that has flooded this thread, especially recently.
Come on, we are Starcraft players, many of us long-time veterans. We know all about having a concise plan of attack and executing it effectively. So let's apply that concept here, too, so that we can actually give the people behind this system that we so desperately want to love some food for thought.
+1
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whatever the motives are, it seems like blizzard doesn't care for communitys on b.net 2.0 yet. Obviously chatrooms aren't something they 'forgot' to implement. My theory is they want people testing the game, as opposed to clogging up their server bandwidth idling in channels.
Why was the decision made to have multiple leagues instead of one unified league like the BW original ladder system? And suddenly the chosen removal of the ELO display? Interesting.
The latest move involving the need to add people by their e-mail is surely part of the same initiative. Now you can't add people you look up on starcraftrankings.com, see on livestreams, or youtube videos.
imo, Blizzard's lack of community support is a conscious decision made for the purposes of the beta. I'm sure come late June there will be some heavy implementation and no more complainers. 
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THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD IS THAT THESE THINGS WONT BE AT RELEASE AND WE ARE ANGRY AS HELL!
and you cant clog up server bandwidth with chatting. Seriously, this is the most retarded argument ever and no we won’t have these things at release.
READ the ENTIRE thread before uttering ridiculous arguments that fail SO HARD IT MAKES ME WANT TO KICK SOMETHING XD.
Now does the marketing make sense? Yes if they where marketing for care bears or pokemon 1444 the game.
Does the UI make sense? To anyone that has ever in his life touched something remotely similar in therms of rts. NO
Does the censorship make sense? AGAIN, if you had kids playing 1on1 online yes. DO THEY PLAY THE GAME ONLINE? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
They will play campaign mode, vs. computer and use cheat codes.
BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT CHILDREN DO.
And 14 + years old children cant be offended, true story.
Will most players care about either of these points. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Please hold off the complaining until the game comes out.
For the billionth time by the billionth person
THIS IS BETA
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All this rage is expected from people who don't understand what is being done. B.net 2.0 is the new system that Blizzard is using for ALL THEIR GAMES, not just sc2. This is on the level of a Steam client release.
Does anyone remember Steam's release? Buggy friends list, laggy as hell connections, crashes on start up, inability to launch games, chat windows that wouldn't deliver messages, updates that never installed properly, memory leaks, the list goes on and on.
This doesn't get ironed out in the beta phase (steam didn't, so why do we expect this from bnet 2.0?). A lot of steam's functionality wasn't implemented until quite some time later. I expect no more or less from bnet 2.0. When all is said and done, however, I expect b.net 2.0 to live up to all the hype its garnered. This should include all the points being discussed currently (chat rooms, global ladder, tournament systems, clan channels, online replays etc...). To demand it at release or during beta unwarranted; demanding it during launch is a little more reasonable, but understandable if it isn't delivered.
Anyone expecting a smooth and easy ride when buying on day 0 for SC2 is naive. All I need to do is point to Half-Life 2 & CS:S implementation of steam for precedence.
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EPT
