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On May 24 2010 08:59 Stripe wrote:
Most gamers are pumped for SC2, it seems most of the whining comes from former competitive SC players. I think this is just another case of the Casual vs. Hardcore user base argument.
Unfortunately for the hardcore userbase of TL, casual users have much more influence than you guys and that's the way it should be. It's not just about money either, but satisfying a larger number of people.
"
That's because casual players aren't informed, or don't care. There is no casual vs hardcore argument, as casuals don't know shit.
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Thinking you can get a bunch of casuals to join in the RTS party is naive, period.
Of course you can get casuals on a MMO, but why? Because "hardcore" in a mmo only meant you had hardcore amounts of TIME to dedicate to the game. I mean what's the last MMO you saw that required the amount of skill expected out of competitive RTS or FPS? So yeah, duh, you can bring all the casuals to WoW. Because MMOs are mostly about how much TIME, and only TIME, you're willing to dump into the game.
RTS however requires both dexterity and good decision making skills, and is a genre that tends, as the game progresses, to naturally overwhelm you with things to do, one of the challenges being to keep up with the sheer amount of things going on since you don't have unlimited APM.
So yeah, Blizzard is shitting all over the old competitive RTS gamers and thinking they can reel in the casual hordes to a RTS. I say good luck to them, but I think they're in for a big disappointment.
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Thinking you can get a bunch of casuals to join in the RTS party is naive, period.
Exactly. Blizzard are aiming for the same approach with Battle.net 2.0 as with World of Warcraft. Most MMO players won't play an RTS game, or will only buy the first Starcraft 2 game to try it out, not the expansion packs. For Starcraft 2 to be successful, they should be aiming at mature gamers in the RTS community, There are millions of us who grew up with Starcraft and would love to invest time in Starcraft 2, but they have to realize that we're not idiots. I was displeased with a lot of things in Starcraft 2 before, but after the facebook integration and further focus on flashy icons and herding, I feel like an idiot every time I log on to Battle.net "2.0". I urge everyone to cancel their pre-orders and don't buy SC2 at first, let's make Blizzard swet a little, they deserve it for thinking we're idiot consumer cattle.
Perhaps if I were an idiot, I'd just shut up about it and buy all the games with a smile. Ignorance is blizz..
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On May 24 2010 09:05 HalfAmazing wrote:
That's because casual players aren't informed, or don't care. There is no casual vs hardcore argument, as casuals don't know shit.
They value different things. That's what creates these arguments.
On May 24 2010 09:05 shlomo wrote:
Thinking you can get a bunch of casuals to join in the RTS party is naive, period.
Of course you can get casuals on a MMO, but why? Because "hardcore" in a mmo only meant you had hardcore amounts of TIME to dedicate to the game. I mean what's the last MMO you saw that required the amount of skill expected out of competitive RTS or FPS? So yeah, duh, you can bring all the casuals to WoW. Because MMOs are mostly about how much TIME, and only TIME, you're willing to dump into the game.
RTS however requires both dexterity and good decision making skills, and is a genre that tends, as the game progresses, to naturally overwhelm you with things to do, one of the challenges being to keep up with the sheer amount of things going on since you don't have unlimited APM.
So yeah, Blizzard is shitting all over the old competitive RTS gamers and thinking they can reel in the casual hordes to a RTS. I say good luck to them, but I think they're in for a big disappointment.
Joining the RTS party doesn't mean becoming the absolute best at SC2 or even competitive. What's wrong with people with 10APM on the ladder playing other people with 10APM and having fun while slowly getting better?
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On May 24 2010 08:59 Stripe wrote:
Most gamers are pumped for SC2, it seems most of the whining comes from former competitive SC players. I think this is just another case of the Casual vs. Hardcore user base argument.
Unfortunately for the hardcore userbase of TL, casual users have much more influence than you guys and that's the way it should be. It's not just about money either, but satisfying a larger number of people.
To the TC, you're jumping to a conclusion about the future of SC2 way to fast. Accurate predictions like these are really hard to make.
Don't buy SC2 at release and check back 6 months after several patches; the existence of a thriving competitive scene may end up surprising you.
No need to get so angry and lash out on "WoW faggots."
totally disagree.
yes TL is as hardcore as it gets. but what about the countless wc3 players that too want their chats,gateway selection,lan and clan features?
and i think you underestimate how important the western bw community is/was for blizzard success.
imagine all this hype around bw never happened. imagine evryone wouldve moved to other rts at 02 because new rts came out. blizzard wouldnt have the thousands and thousands of preorders. press wouldnt rip their limbs out to get preview info. hell even wc3 would never gotten as big. it would be "starwhat 2? sequel to a 12 year old game? meh.. whatever lets see if its ok" instead of "OMGAWD SC2! OMGOMGOMG MUST HAVE NAO!".
evryone that played wc3 half srs or bw expects something from blizzard. and they kick exactly those guys that spend years of their lifes with the games in the nuts. which is plain stupid cause:
-14 year old johnboy will buy the gamem play campaign, play some ffas/ums and be done with the game.
- 14 year old johnboy wont decide wheter to buy the game or not on the bnet features
- 14 year old johnboy maybe will buy an expansion. maybe not.
- 14 year old johnboy might think "oh nice i can has facebook!" but will never really care about stuff like that
but
- we will play the game for years to come. keeping it in the tournaments,on boards, keep the discussion up. creating a hype around their game. not only creates a huge playerbase for more $ but also is the best advertising possible in the game market.
- we are heavily affected by the features provided by bnet since they are core to our gameplay expirience.
-we WILL buy expansions(if we are happy.). and maybe even some more (i had like 5 sc+bw packs,3 wc3+tft packs, 3 d2+lod packs...)
-we DO care about the features.
just look how big sc2 is on amazon already. do you really think more then 10% of the preorders are from "casuals" that never played sc/wc3?
no matter how you look at it, making the casuals #1 priority is plain retarded. blizz lost quite some of their good name already with wow. we all hoped this wouldnt affect the nonwow part of blizz. but we now are see whats happening. and we dont like it.
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On May 24 2010 09:22 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
and i think you underestimate how important the western bw community is/was for blizzard success.
imagine all this hype around bw never happened. imagine evryone wouldve moved to other rts at 02 because new rts came out. blizzard wouldnt have the thousands and thousands of preorders. press wouldnt rip their limbs out to get preview info. hell even wc3 would never gotten as big. it would be "starwhat 2? sequel to a 12 year old game? meh.. whatever lets see if its ok" instead of "OMGAWD SC2! OMGOMGOMG MUST HAVE NAO!".
just look how big sc2 is on amazon already. do you really think more then 10% of the preorders are from "casuals" that never played sc/wc3?
no matter how you look at it, making the casuals #1 priority is plain retarded. blizz lost quite some of their good name already with wow. we all hoped this wouldnt affect the nonwow part of blizz. but we now are see whats happening. and we dont like it.
You're probably overestimating the western competitive BW community on the sales of SC2. Most people who played SC and is hyped for SC2 aren't really competitive players; most won't even make a D+ in ICCup. The same is true for WC3.
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On May 24 2010 09:28 Stripe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 09:22 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
and i think you underestimate how important the western bw community is/was for blizzard success.
imagine all this hype around bw never happened. imagine evryone wouldve moved to other rts at 02 because new rts came out. blizzard wouldnt have the thousands and thousands of preorders. press wouldnt rip their limbs out to get preview info. hell even wc3 would never gotten as big. it would be "starwhat 2? sequel to a 12 year old game? meh.. whatever lets see if its ok" instead of "OMGAWD SC2! OMGOMGOMG MUST HAVE NAO!".
just look how big sc2 is on amazon already. do you really think more then 10% of the preorders are from "casuals" that never played sc/wc3?
no matter how you look at it, making the casuals #1 priority is plain retarded. blizz lost quite some of their good name already with wow. we all hoped this wouldnt affect the nonwow part of blizz. but we now are see whats happening. and we dont like it. You're probably overestimating the western competitive BW community on the sales of SC2. Most people who played SC and is hyped for SC2 aren't really competitive players; most won't even make a D+ in ICCup. The same is true for WC3.
ofc the number of like d+ iccup players is tiny. but its not only about that. its about all the guys related to it or that were once more serious about the game(s).
evryone i know that is really interested in sc2 played wc3 alot or was atleast somewhat involved in the broodwar thing back then.even if it was just someone playing with the guys in his random clan and watching "pro" reps.and all those guys are somewhat related to the hype of broodwar. cause really, do you think anyone wouldve kept talking about broodwar if it hadnt such a amazing name?
and evry single one with that history is used to the features bnet provided. and they are all gone.
i recently gave another one with very little rts expirience(he only played wc3 campaign and some ums) a beta key and he asked me why all the bnet features were disabled for beta(chat,custom browser and gateway selection were the things he asked for i think). i told him they kinda scrapped all that and his reaction was the same as evryone else here. "kidding? why?"
/edit weird post. cant get my mind straight atm >.<
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just get rid of the facebook rubbish blizzard, do something people care about, your essentially polishing a lamp with no genie when ur adding pointless features to a broken system
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It's getting harder and harder to believe they are holding stuff back... they would have said something by now, responded to the waves of criticism flying their way. I hope the battle.net team is taking an honest and impartial look at what they've created and rethinking their priorities.
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Even casual gamers won't enjoy this.
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On May 24 2010 09:05 shlomo wrote:
Thinking you can get a bunch of casuals to join in the RTS party is naive, period.
Of course you can get casuals on a MMO, but why? Because "hardcore" in a mmo only meant you had hardcore amounts of TIME to dedicate to the game. I mean what's the last MMO you saw that required the amount of skill expected out of competitive RTS or FPS? So yeah, duh, you can bring all the casuals to WoW. Because MMOs are mostly about how much TIME, and only TIME, you're willing to dump into the game.
RTS however requires both dexterity and good decision making skills, and is a genre that tends, as the game progresses, to naturally overwhelm you with things to do, one of the challenges being to keep up with the sheer amount of things going on since you don't have unlimited APM.
So yeah, Blizzard is shitting all over the old competitive RTS gamers and thinking they can reel in the casual hordes to a RTS. I say good luck to them, but I think they're in for a big disappointment.
exactly.
casual gamers might appear in the first months but after 1 year most of them will become hardcore players that like to play tournaments and maybe earn some few bucks on their hometown/country sponsored tournaments.
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On May 24 2010 15:11 Drakan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 09:05 shlomo wrote:
Thinking you can get a bunch of casuals to join in the RTS party is naive, period.
Of course you can get casuals on a MMO, but why? Because "hardcore" in a mmo only meant you had hardcore amounts of TIME to dedicate to the game. I mean what's the last MMO you saw that required the amount of skill expected out of competitive RTS or FPS? So yeah, duh, you can bring all the casuals to WoW. Because MMOs are mostly about how much TIME, and only TIME, you're willing to dump into the game.
RTS however requires both dexterity and good decision making skills, and is a genre that tends, as the game progresses, to naturally overwhelm you with things to do, one of the challenges being to keep up with the sheer amount of things going on since you don't have unlimited APM.
So yeah, Blizzard is shitting all over the old competitive RTS gamers and thinking they can reel in the casual hordes to a RTS. I say good luck to them, but I think they're in for a big disappointment. exactly. casual gamers might appear in the first months but after 1 year most of them will become hardcore players that like to play tournaments and maybe earn some few bucks on their hometown/country sponsored tournaments.
For getting number 1... in Bronze League.
I guess Blizz did something right. I mean, the rankings are so pointless that you can never know who's best. It means that there MUST be tournaments. 
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"Not knowing who the host is"
That's actually a really easy answer. The games are being hosted on BLIZZARD'S SERVERS. Christ, at least do some reading such as the one R1CH was kind enough to write up about the differences in connectivity methodology in bnet 2.0.
The number one reason for not having LAN is because of piracy. The instant lan is allowed, HELLO hamachi and probably even iccup once again.
Have you seen any other modern games? Do they have LAN?
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I really love blizzards mentality at this point. Exspecially the chat rooms being removed. When i got on sc2beta i felt so alone...
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Piracy will happen regardless. Piracy was huge in the original StarCraft yet it was extremely successful. ICCUP would never have existed if Blizzard actually updated Battle.net. For the past few years I've been on Blizzard's side regarding their feud with KeSPA, but now I'm having second thoughts. Blizzard did not put any effort into StarCraft's e-Sports success, and from the looks of it, doesn't want to for StarCraft 2.
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The state of Bnet 2.0 for me is either they get their act together before release and prove this pile of steaming crap (bnet, not sc2) can work properly and not have stupid shit in it while not having important required stuff in it...or I cancel my pre-order and wait a few months for the game to actually have a fucking working online server system (edit: that doesn't dick my privacy over.)
Sorry to vent but seriously Im beyond being polite about bnet, its crappy crap covered in crap wrapping with a crap bow on top... and it keeps getting crappier.
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They took online replays out for silly features like achievements, and I cringed but accepted it. Sure, they lied about that same promise in wc3, but this time things were.... different maybe?
But this just sucks, and I actually appreciate facebook when i say that.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 24 2010 06:02 Nebulis wrote:Show nested quote +
Ok, so, I don't actually agree.
Look at WoW - I'm sure tonnes of casuals in that game joined guilds (clans). WoW also had chat channels (I say had because I dunno what the current status is).
And casuals like LAN, just for different reasons.
WoW is a bit of a specific case, as it came with built-in guilds and chat channels, simply because every other MMO has it (mainly because MMO wouldnt massive without at least some sort of way of communication between players). WoW guilds are pretty different from RTS clans. It's common for guilds to have several dozen/hundred of players, a good part of them being borderline active. Also there isn't any kind of competition between a large majority of guilds. Their primary role is social gathering, while clans imo always retain the small of competition. Actually WoW was oriented towards hardcore players at the very beginning, stuff like achievements didnt come until very late.
And you think most guilds in SC and WC3 were hardcore ? Dude, when I was 13 and made the FrozenArbiter account on US West, I randomly bumped into a group of americans who had a clan called Frozen (which I joined for about a week or something).
They played some money maps (badly) and UMS. You don't think these guys were casual?
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I never would have dreamed we would be in this place.
Before Battle.net 2.0 was out I was really worried that Blizzard would not implement all the cool e-sports ideas I had been wishing for. At the least I was hoping for some sort of built in WaaaghTV client.
The worst case scenario I had been contemplating that we merely got a slightly overhauled WC3 battle.net. I was thinking that would be dissapointing.
Well, haha, the joke is on me. My e-sports ideas now look like a pipe dream, and I would kill to have the WC3 battle.net instead of this POS.
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Fire everyone involved with BNet 2.0 and hire humans instead of monkies with minimal cognitive abilities.
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EPT
