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On May 22 2010 04:03 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 03:58 KwarK wrote:
The colossus force field thing is huge for gateway units vs colo in early game pvp. A warp gate rush could hit before the colo got out but the colo could wipe it out in a few shots. Sentries low damage and zeals melee made a single colo hard to kill without force fielding behind it to trap it with the zeals. Now that's gone pvp will be changed significantly. I won't say they've altered the balance in PvP because that'd be absurd but they've rendered a cool strategy obsolete. +1  Is there a single person on TL who thinks that Terran infantry needed a buff? I think its so weird that they got buffed. Not a single tournament showing Terran infantry being weak, no general trend of imba whine on the forums...where did this come from!? T_T
actually i think its good even tho stim was ok at 150/150. T just has to spend way more gas on tech&buildings then the other races.a reduce on that is imho a good thing overall. and since the time didnt get changed it wont have a huugee impact.
but ya stim is maybe too powerful for a 100/100. on cobmatshields its totally fine .
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On May 22 2010 04:21 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:18 DooMDash wrote:
Good luck Protoss players? It was Terran having the problems. yeah, at the levels where people suck but any player who is interested in making the game good for competition should be most worried about how balanced it is at the highest levels
Blizzard was looking at high level play. They looked at Gold and Platinum specifically. Look at "the state of the game 5". Cluck talks about how its a pretty close match up but void rays make it a little easier for Toss. The 1 void ray range nerf, and what, 20 seconds of more marine shield and stim can easily balance that.
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only way i can see ultralisks useful is if you burrow them and strike at the right moment , there is no way a 450 hp ultralisk will survive a MMM ball to come even close.
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I got an idea for you guys, put as much effort into it as you do whining about those changes and you'll get better.
Let's take the Overseer change ability and lets say you'r playing protoss (that's my case).
I could go:
FUCK THIS ! OP BULLSHIT ! Now they will stop my collosi production and ill get overrun and I can't win anymore and this is gay SWITCHING TO TERRAN !
Or you can try what I am actually doing atm:
Ok, how does that change affect my:
Strategy
timing
building placement
Unit choice
Now what are the solution ?:
Different building placement
Stalker (ok I had plenty already)
Blink maybe ?
Phoenix opening maybe so I can use them in mid game more as defense as offence ?
Ok I got new issue, I got new solutions that could work it out now all I have to do is plug those new idea in my current strategy, fix the timing issue I can get and BOOM I might be alright.
Now apply that way of thinking to all the change that this patch bring and that affect you directly in your game plan and you know what ?
Not only will you be better overall but who knows ? Those change might bring a new playing style to this game.
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On May 22 2010 04:22 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:19 Sinensis wrote:
My problem with the ultralisk before this patch was that they served absolutely no role in combat at any stage of the game. I don't see how that has changed. They're still massive and inhibit good surrounds, they're still extremely expensive, they still die almost immediately to most of the commonly produced mid tier units (immortals, marauders, tanks, etc), they're still slow as hell, and now they're even easier to kill.
I don't feel like I need to say anything about terran getting buffed again. They are still good at getting to that line of Siege tanks. It takes 8 siege shots for 1 ultra to go down. Makes a pretty big deal. Hellions won't do any damage to them period, marines won't do any damage to them period... and if they have mass Marauders you wouldn't want to go Ultras anyway. Now they do serve a purpose. They can get to tank lines pretty easy, and they are great at taking out buildings.
When does a terran ever not mass marauders?
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On May 22 2010 04:24 Knap4life wrote:
only way i can see ultralisks useful is if you burrow them and strike at the right moment , there is no way a 450 hp ultralisk will survive a MMM ball to come even close.
With MMM balls you should be going other options. Banelings, roach, hydra, and most important, infestors. Ultras are much better against metal now.
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On May 22 2010 04:23 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:21 travis wrote:On May 22 2010 04:18 DooMDash wrote:
Good luck Protoss players? It was Terran having the problems. yeah, at the levels where people suck but any player who is interested in making the game good for competition should be most worried about how balanced it is at the highest levels Blizzard was looking at high level play. They looked at Gold and Platinum specifically. Look at "the state of the game 5". Cluck talks about how its a pretty close match up but void rays make it a little easier for Toss. The 1 void ray range nerf, and what, 20 seconds of more marine shield and stim can easily balance that.
all gold and most platinum players aren't even near the highest levels. there is a large gap between the players u see at the top of tournaments and even most high rated platinum players.
look at results from tournaments with top players, and listen to what top players have to say about the balance.
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when are they going to fix the mothershit
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I'm a Terran player and I'm a little disappointed at infantry buffs. Sure I will probably benefit but I'd really like to see some encouragement of non-infantry based play.
Void Ray nerf was needed, Ultra changes make me scratch my head. Ultras damage was never the problem, they need more survivability, which they didn't really get in any meaningful way...
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On May 22 2010 04:24 Knap4life wrote:
only way i can see ultralisks useful is if you burrow them and strike at the right moment , there is no way a 450 hp ultralisk will survive a MMM ball to come even close.
Why is every solution to Zerg having trouble with Terran "use burrow in some clever and situation way" as if that can work every time? Thank God Terran has like no detection, right?
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2010 04:25 XDsCrazy wrote:
I got an idea for you guys, put as much effort into it as you do whining about those changes and you'll get better.
Let's take the Overseer change ability and lets say you'r playing protoss (that's my case).
I could go:
FUCK THIS ! OP BULLSHIT ! Now they will stop my collosi production and ill get overrun and I can't win anymore and this is gay SWITCHING TO TERRAN !
Or you can try what I am actually doing atm:
Ok, how does that change affect my:
Strategy
timing
building placement
Unit choice
Now what are the solution ?:
Different building placement
Stalker (ok I had plenty already)
Blink maybe ?
Phoenix opening maybe so I can use them in mid game more as defense as offence ?
Ok I got new issue, I got new solutions that could work it out now all I have to do is plug those new idea in my current strategy, fix the timing issue I can get and BOOM I might be alright.
Now apply that way of thinking to all the change that this patch bring and that affect you directly in your game plan and you know what ?
Not only will you be better overall but who knows ? Those change might bring a new playing style to this game.
He kinda have a point.
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On May 22 2010 04:25 Dionyseus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:22 DooMDash wrote:On May 22 2010 04:19 Sinensis wrote:
My problem with the ultralisk before this patch was that they served absolutely no role in combat at any stage of the game. I don't see how that has changed. They're still massive and inhibit good surrounds, they're still extremely expensive, they still die almost immediately to most of the commonly produced mid tier units (immortals, marauders, tanks, etc), they're still slow as hell, and now they're even easier to kill.
I don't feel like I need to say anything about terran getting buffed again. They are still good at getting to that line of Siege tanks. It takes 8 siege shots for 1 ultra to go down. Makes a pretty big deal. Hellions won't do any damage to them period, marines won't do any damage to them period... and if they have mass Marauders you wouldn't want to go Ultras anyway. Now they do serve a purpose. They can get to tank lines pretty easy, and they are great at taking out buildings. When does a terran ever not mass marauders?
I don't and I'm 1800 Platinum. I did when I started but after losing and realizing how much better options they have I phased them out almost entirely. Again, listen to "The state of the game part 5" here on the forums. Listen to the top players talk and they agree with my thinking. Marines are the real juice, and metal is the real juice vs zerg.
On May 22 2010 04:26 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:23 DooMDash wrote:On May 22 2010 04:21 travis wrote:On May 22 2010 04:18 DooMDash wrote:
Good luck Protoss players? It was Terran having the problems. yeah, at the levels where people suck but any player who is interested in making the game good for competition should be most worried about how balanced it is at the highest levels Blizzard was looking at high level play. They looked at Gold and Platinum specifically. Look at "the state of the game 5". Cluck talks about how its a pretty close match up but void rays make it a little easier for Toss. The 1 void ray range nerf, and what, 20 seconds of more marine shield and stim can easily balance that. all gold and most platinum players aren't even near the highest levels. there is a large gap between the players u see at the top of tournaments and even most high rated platinum players. look at results from tournaments with top players, and listen to what top players have to say about the balance.
Listen to the last pod cast I refereed to plz. Don't take my word for it.
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On May 22 2010 04:26 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:24 Knap4life wrote:
only way i can see ultralisks useful is if you burrow them and strike at the right moment , there is no way a 450 hp ultralisk will survive a MMM ball to come even close. Why is every solution to Zerg having trouble with Terran "use burrow in some clever and situation way" as if that can work every time? Thank God Terran has like no detection, right?
In other words he's saying ultralisks are completely useless.
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with the overseer becoming a very decent flying caster harrass and detection unit, still having 200 hp and being armored seems a bit strong and imo should be brought in line with ravens, who are weak as shit
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On May 22 2010 04:28 Bloodash wrote:
with the overseer becoming a very decent flying caster harrass and detection unit, still having 200 hp and being armored seems a bit strong and imo should be brought in line with ravens, who are weak as shit
Overseers are still not meant to be used with your army like ravens are, they are more of their own thing with their harass capabilities
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patch 13 is up go all dl it us people 
EDIT: nvm it look bugged
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On May 22 2010 04:28 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:25 Dionyseus wrote:On May 22 2010 04:22 DooMDash wrote:On May 22 2010 04:19 Sinensis wrote:
My problem with the ultralisk before this patch was that they served absolutely no role in combat at any stage of the game. I don't see how that has changed. They're still massive and inhibit good surrounds, they're still extremely expensive, they still die almost immediately to most of the commonly produced mid tier units (immortals, marauders, tanks, etc), they're still slow as hell, and now they're even easier to kill.
I don't feel like I need to say anything about terran getting buffed again. They are still good at getting to that line of Siege tanks. It takes 8 siege shots for 1 ultra to go down. Makes a pretty big deal. Hellions won't do any damage to them period, marines won't do any damage to them period... and if they have mass Marauders you wouldn't want to go Ultras anyway. Now they do serve a purpose. They can get to tank lines pretty easy, and they are great at taking out buildings. When does a terran ever not mass marauders? I don't and I'm 1800 Platinum. I did when I started but after losing and realizing how much better options they have I phased them out almost entirely. Again, listen to "The state of the game part 5" here on the forums. Listen to the top players talk and they agree with my thinking. Marines are the real juice, and metal is the real juice vs zerg. Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:26 travis wrote:On May 22 2010 04:23 DooMDash wrote:On May 22 2010 04:21 travis wrote:On May 22 2010 04:18 DooMDash wrote:
Good luck Protoss players? It was Terran having the problems. yeah, at the levels where people suck but any player who is interested in making the game good for competition should be most worried about how balanced it is at the highest levels Blizzard was looking at high level play. They looked at Gold and Platinum specifically. Look at "the state of the game 5". Cluck talks about how its a pretty close match up but void rays make it a little easier for Toss. The 1 void ray range nerf, and what, 20 seconds of more marine shield and stim can easily balance that. all gold and most platinum players aren't even near the highest levels. there is a large gap between the players u see at the top of tournaments and even most high rated platinum players. look at results from tournaments with top players, and listen to what top players have to say about the balance. Listen to the last pod cast I refereed to plz. Don't take my word for it.
well you're 18 platinum so you clearly aren't bad. what's your opinion, personally, of the ultra buff
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its not dling... just says prepapring to dl
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On May 22 2010 04:25 Dionyseus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:22 DooMDash wrote:On May 22 2010 04:19 Sinensis wrote:
My problem with the ultralisk before this patch was that they served absolutely no role in combat at any stage of the game. I don't see how that has changed. They're still massive and inhibit good surrounds, they're still extremely expensive, they still die almost immediately to most of the commonly produced mid tier units (immortals, marauders, tanks, etc), they're still slow as hell, and now they're even easier to kill.
I don't feel like I need to say anything about terran getting buffed again. They are still good at getting to that line of Siege tanks. It takes 8 siege shots for 1 ultra to go down. Makes a pretty big deal. Hellions won't do any damage to them period, marines won't do any damage to them period... and if they have mass Marauders you wouldn't want to go Ultras anyway. Now they do serve a purpose. They can get to tank lines pretty easy, and they are great at taking out buildings. When does a terran ever not mass marauders?
Against other Terrans or Zerg. The Immo makes any TvP Mech play hard though. Yes a Terran will always have MM mixed in but I wouldn't call it mass. The MMM ball will get you to gold league with A move though. I understand where the T is OP comes from, I do. The thing I look at though is the top Tourney players aren't Terran. That leads me to believe that at the highest levels of gameplay Terran are weaker than the other races... though that is probably subjective.
The Marine tech buff is nice, but it wasn't needed... atleast Stim. Stim was fine and Terran Infantry play made you go it and it was worth the cost. The shield upgrade is a good buff, but again not huge.
Just my $0.02
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In my opinion here's what it all comes down to. I've seen some threads in other forums (with the average person way below the level of the average person on here) saying that terran is horrible. Of course, it is a common opinion here and in my own head is that terran was the strongest pre patch 13. So, the casual player loses a lot with terran, but the pros understand their power and can execute. It's easy to say to just balance the game around the pros and let the new people adapt. But keep in mind that the casual player buys way more copies of the game than we do.
The question of how to buff a race for low level play and nerf the same race (or at least not buff it) for high level play is something I wouldn't even know how to approach properly. I do think that Blizzard is trying to do too many things at once with this game and that's causing the problem. They have said they wanted it to be competitive at high levels and become an e-sport. Ok, great that's a good goal. But then they are a company who wants money so they must try to keep the new players satisfied. The problem is those two goals aren't always compatible and I think the state of terran is a perfect example of that right now. Too strong at high levels, too weak at low levels.
My whole point here is that you can't please everybody at once. I'm dismayed that they seem to be choosing to appeal to the casuals at the moment.
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EPT
