EPTOver-nerfed: Why Zerg dominated Korea. - Page 9
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
pyr0ma5ta
United States458 Posts
| ||
|
Nitron
Singapore177 Posts
| ||
|
HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
On May 17 2010 22:36 Nitron wrote: Koreans are not the best RTS gamers, I believe other countries is just as good, its just that Starcraft is dominated by Korea because of their culture and superstar status that makes ppl want to be better. In other words: They're better. | ||
|
Takkara
United States2503 Posts
On May 17 2010 22:36 Nitron wrote: Koreans are not the best RTS gamers, I believe other countries is just as good, its just that Starcraft is dominated by Korea because of their culture and superstar status that makes ppl want to be better. I don't disagree, but there's a danger with this argument. It's precisely because of the culture that makes them perhaps the best SC players. I don't think there's a Korean gene that somehow causes them to be predisposed to being good SC players, but because the culture exists, they likely have a wider and deeper talent pool compared to the US/EU. There are no absolutes, and over time other regions could take the mantle away, but for now, they just started ahead of the other regions. Similarly to how in US we have American Football, and we claim to be the best at it, but we're really the only ones that play it. Give people enough time and interest and they could rival us at that as well. Just ask the NBA. But that doesn't stop the fact that if you looked at it now, we're the best at American Football in the world. | ||
|
deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
| ||
|
heishe
Germany2284 Posts
 | ||
|
Koffiegast
Netherlands346 Posts
On May 17 2010 22:48 deth2munkies wrote: The reason Zerg dominated Asia is because their macro mechanic is flat-out better than both the other races and Koreans are much more accomplished at macro than the rest of the world. It's quite as simple as that, using the "less to learn" argument seems like you're backing yourself in a corner as there are very easy counter arguments (leading to Protoss being the most "underpowered" race due to them having so many builds/strats to learn). And those counter arguments dont prove anything if you actually understood what the "has less to learn" implies. | ||
|
Talic_Zealot
688 Posts
The list of reasons kinda bothers me, I didn't expect you to be so dismissive. It is my belief that 2) and 3) explain why exactly 1) is not true.Koreans are not best at RTSes just y being koreans, it is so because everyone plays starcraft and exchange knowledge. I completely agree for the diversity point, but I don't really think that zerg has been maimed in any way. | ||
|
blsd
15 Posts
If you have 100 energy on your command center instead of 50 that's ok because you can just use 2 mules, if you don't inject larva for 10 seconds it's a 'huge' difference. Everyone only says 'zerg has op macro mechanics' which is true if the zerg player is really good at it, which is more likely for the top asian players than for the top EU/US players, since those spend more time playing this game. | ||
|
floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On May 17 2010 23:01 heishe wrote: well, koreans certainly aren't inherently better in RTS-s (or games in general) than the rest of the world, they just play more I don't think anyone is claiming them to be inherently superior. Americans are the best at American football and basketball, because those are their games. I doubt anyone will challenge this or inform me they aren't inherently better at those sports, they just play them more. If other nations took an interest outside of the olympics as far as basketball and developed their play, they would likely compete. Same with any other sport that is played more in one region than another. Starcraft is Korea's game because there was huge competition there. SC2 is already more competitive other there was a result. Definitely more so than the NA server. Right now the numbers are skewed in Korea's favor. Will it always be that way for SC2? I don't know. But let's not try to refute the fact that Korea is at present better SC2 players on the whole, they are. | ||
|
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
| ||
|
floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
What really makes me sad about zerg in sc2 is that larvae is no longer that extra resource and in many cases the most precious one, above gas and minerals. For a huge part of the game you had to be aware of your larva and what you were doing with them. SC2 removed a lot of that complexity with queens. It still exists but to a very small degree compared to SC. | ||
|
lu_cid
United States428 Posts
| ||
|
EnderW
United States170 Posts
Honestly though, I'm glad someone has the sense to point these kind of factors out to the community! | ||
|
Logo
United States7542 Posts
Uh what? Look at the zerg army... 9 combat units, overlords, and queens Ultralisks - proven time and time again to be useless Corruptors - Strategically uninteresting, if you don't immediately know what you use them for you fail. So that brings us down to 7 units for our composition already Broodlords - Also strategically uninteresting really. You get late game, you make broodlords, you kill stuff from a safe distance. They're too slow to do anything cute and too powerful to be a bad choice. So really you're left with Mutalisks, Hydras, Roaches, Zerglings, Banelings, and Infestors. These 6 units make up the majority of your army (until broodlords). So that's 6 or 7 units zerg have to mix with. Even further some units like banelings have clear uses as do Infestors. They're great 'mix ins', but they don't make an army in and of itself. Even more Mutalisks are weakish air units (great at harass of course) and we generally know they don't hold up in a full on battle if it involves units like marines or thors. The range of mutalisks is such that they can't partake in a battle and be safe from their counters (range 3 and all that). So really our main force is down to Hydra, Roach, and Zergling. It's no surprise that this is what you see the majority of zerg go. Zerg have the three main units to base their army off of, 4 if you think mutas are viable as a combat force, very specific uses of corruptors, broodlords to add in later, and a few other situational units we can pump in to help. Meanwhile look at Protoss. Stalker/Zealot usually make the core of a zerg army but look at all the additions they can add on. Sentries, Colossi, Immortals, Phoenixes, Void Rays, and High Templars can all be mixed in (and in different compositions) to create an army. All of those choices bring a good amount of utility to any army with phoenixes are probably the choice that fills the most situational role. So for a race like Protoss you're looking at double or triple the choices in what units to add to your core, and that's even after excluding units like DTs or carrier for perceptually having less battle utility. I think it's absurd to say that it's harder to learn ideal compositions for something like Protoss compared to Zerg. There are just so many more choices and viable compositions. Zerg have the largest set of 'core' units, but the smallest set of additional units. I think it's a lot easier to figure out how to model the core of your army than it is to figure out the right time and right uses of the additional units. That's why zerg are easier to understand strategically. | ||
|
Turbo.Tactics
Germany675 Posts
What really makes me sad about zerg in sc2 is that larvae is no longer that extra resource and in many cases the most precious one, above gas and minerals. For a huge part of the game you had to be aware of your larva and what you were doing with them. SC2 removed a lot of that complexity with queens. It still exists but to a very small degree compared to SC. That is just plainly wrong! A lot of people argue that the Queen destroyed the Zergs constant problem of chosing between units and drones. Droning is still a thing you have to decide on and you are still limited to larvae. The only diffrence is that you now have more larvae to chose from. But it is wrong to say: hey, zerg has more larvae and therefore you don't have to chose between drones and units because to keep up with the buffed macro of Protoss and Terran (which also got abilitys to speed up their econ) you HAVE to be droning massively to keep up with their economy. That is another reason why the Roach change is a pain in the butt for Zergs that most Toss and Terran players do not see. More overlords to support Roaches means less spare larvae --> less droning | ||
|
Logo
United States7542 Posts
On May 17 2010 23:38 Turbo.Tactics wrote: That is just plainly wrong! A lot of people argue that the Queen destroyed the Zergs constant problem of chosing between units and drones. Droning is still a thing you have to decide on and you are still limited to larvae. The only diffrence is that you now have more larvae to chose from. But it is wrong to say: hey, zerg has more larvae and therefore you don't have to chose between drones and units because to keep up with the buffed macro of Protoss and Terran (which also got abilitys to speed up their econ) you HAVE to be droning massively to keep up with their economy. That is another reason why the Roach change is a pain in the butt for Zergs that most Toss and Terran players do not see. More overlords to support Roaches means less spare larvae --> less droning I can't speak for top level play, but in my games (1350 plat) I still live and die by my larvae. Almost all of my losses can be traced back to me mismanaging larvae at some point. | ||
|
Tray
United States122 Posts
| ||
|
Turbo.Tactics
Germany675 Posts
Artosis is bias and his lack of logical reasonining in this article pretty much solidifies it. And if I'm being really honest, he's not a good player either. If he played half as well as he cried, he might actually be able to be a legit pro one day. Instead, since he's garbage, he's doomed to always be the guy who commentates and observes and not the guy who plays. Most of the Beta has already caught up to him now that there's a ton more people in the game and he will drift into obscurity upon release. I sense a troll | ||
|
floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
Just because zerg players are greedy as fuck and try to power drone to 60+ every game even when their opponent is clearly still on one base doesn't mean larva management is as important a skill as it was in SC. It just isn't, by virtue of there being so much more of it whenever you want. If you have near perfect inject timing you will often times be waiting for minerals early-mid game, not larva.. It's a thousand times less punishing than in SC. It's more in line with the same way all other production management is important. | ||
| ||
