• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:16
CEST 13:16
KST 20:16
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event9Serral wins EWC 202543Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9
Community News
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments5[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4
StarCraft 2
General
uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Rogue Talks: "Koreans could dominate again" RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ StarCon Philadelphia ASL Season 20 Ro24 Groups BW General Discussion BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM 2025 Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gaming After Dark: Poor Slee…
TrAiDoS
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 640 users

Over-nerfed: Why Zerg dominated Korea. - Page 9

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 7 8 9 10 11 17 Next All
pyr0ma5ta
Profile Joined May 2010
United States458 Posts
May 17 2010 13:32 GMT
#161
I'm not sure what this article is about. It seems to say that the reason Zergs are winning in Korea is because it's much easier to find good army combinations due to the smaller number of fighting units. It goes on to "prove" this point by showing the number of Zerg pros is larger than the number of T and P (but the numbers are small enough that this is hardly definitive. But then the title says that Zerg is over-nerfed. If it's over-nerfed, shouldn't the pros be bailing and playing other races? I fail to see the connection. Please help me if I'm confused.
"I made you a zergling, but I eated it." - Defiler
Nitron
Profile Joined April 2010
Singapore177 Posts
May 17 2010 13:36 GMT
#162
Koreans are not the best RTS gamers, I believe other countries is just as good, its just that Starcraft is dominated by Korea because of their culture and superstar status that makes ppl want to be better.
HeyheyLBJ
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden160 Posts
May 17 2010 13:40 GMT
#163
On May 17 2010 22:36 Nitron wrote:
Koreans are not the best RTS gamers, I believe other countries is just as good, its just that Starcraft is dominated by Korea because of their culture and superstar status that makes ppl want to be better.


In other words: They're better.
Takkara
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2503 Posts
May 17 2010 13:40 GMT
#164
On May 17 2010 22:36 Nitron wrote:
Koreans are not the best RTS gamers, I believe other countries is just as good, its just that Starcraft is dominated by Korea because of their culture and superstar status that makes ppl want to be better.


I don't disagree, but there's a danger with this argument. It's precisely because of the culture that makes them perhaps the best SC players. I don't think there's a Korean gene that somehow causes them to be predisposed to being good SC players, but because the culture exists, they likely have a wider and deeper talent pool compared to the US/EU. There are no absolutes, and over time other regions could take the mantle away, but for now, they just started ahead of the other regions.

Similarly to how in US we have American Football, and we claim to be the best at it, but we're really the only ones that play it. Give people enough time and interest and they could rival us at that as well. Just ask the NBA. But that doesn't stop the fact that if you looked at it now, we're the best at American Football in the world.
Gee gee gee gee baby baby baby
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
May 17 2010 13:48 GMT
#165
The reason Zerg dominated Asia is because their macro mechanic is flat-out better than both the other races and Koreans are much more accomplished at macro than the rest of the world. It's quite as simple as that, using the "less to learn" argument seems like you're backing yourself in a corner as there are very easy counter arguments (leading to Protoss being the most "underpowered" race due to them having so many builds/strats to learn). I think slowing down Zerg macro a bit might be essential for game balance because they get such a huge macro advantage without constant early game pressure no matter how good your macro is as the other race.
heishe
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany2284 Posts
May 17 2010 14:01 GMT
#166
well, koreans certainly aren't inherently better in RTS-s (or games in general) than the rest of the world, they just play more
If you value your soul, never look into the eye of a horse. Your soul will forever be lost in the void of the horse.
Koffiegast
Profile Joined February 2010
Netherlands346 Posts
May 17 2010 14:07 GMT
#167
On May 17 2010 22:48 deth2munkies wrote:
The reason Zerg dominated Asia is because their macro mechanic is flat-out better than both the other races and Koreans are much more accomplished at macro than the rest of the world. It's quite as simple as that, using the "less to learn" argument seems like you're backing yourself in a corner as there are very easy counter arguments (leading to Protoss being the most "underpowered" race due to them having so many builds/strats to learn).


And those counter arguments dont prove anything if you actually understood what the "has less to learn" implies.
Wut
Talic_Zealot
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
688 Posts
May 17 2010 14:07 GMT
#168
I am surprised by this post.. I don't think that the change (the roach, which I believe this is all about) is a bad thing for zerg. Imo it brings more variety to and more styles to zerg. Ofcource I can agree that they might have made a bigger step than needed, but I don't see any massive drop in zerg win percentage. I as a person who plays all the races like the change.
The list of reasons kinda bothers me, I didn't expect you to be so dismissive. It is my belief that 2) and 3) explain why exactly 1) is not true.Koreans are not best at RTSes just y being koreans, it is so because everyone plays starcraft and exchange knowledge.
I completely agree for the diversity point, but I don't really think that zerg has been maimed in any way.
There are three types of people in the universe: those who can count, and those who cant.
blsd
Profile Joined April 2010
15 Posts
May 17 2010 14:13 GMT
#169
Zerg has the best macro mechanic but it is the most unforgiving one.
If you have 100 energy on your command center instead of 50 that's ok because you can just use 2 mules, if you don't inject larva for 10 seconds it's a 'huge' difference.

Everyone only says 'zerg has op macro mechanics' which is true if the zerg player is really good at it, which is more likely for the top asian players than for the top EU/US players, since those spend more time playing this game.
ok
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-17 14:17:57
May 17 2010 14:17 GMT
#170
On May 17 2010 23:01 heishe wrote:
well, koreans certainly aren't inherently better in RTS-s (or games in general) than the rest of the world, they just play more


I don't think anyone is claiming them to be inherently superior. Americans are the best at American football and basketball, because those are their games. I doubt anyone will challenge this or inform me they aren't inherently better at those sports, they just play them more. If other nations took an interest outside of the olympics as far as basketball and developed their play, they would likely compete. Same with any other sport that is played more in one region than another.

Starcraft is Korea's game because there was huge competition there. SC2 is already more competitive other there was a result. Definitely more so than the NA server. Right now the numbers are skewed in Korea's favor. Will it always be that way for SC2? I don't know. But let's not try to refute the fact that Korea is at present better SC2 players on the whole, they are.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
May 17 2010 14:17 GMT
#171
I would say it has something with zerg scaling up more with skill too.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-17 14:25:28
May 17 2010 14:24 GMT
#172
I think Zerg is too easy to play, which is why more players in Korea are playing z. Same reason why Artosis and Idra switched from Protoss/random to Zerg. Not because it was more fun, but because it was the better performing race. Maybe it is because of the lack of units and therefore lack of creative thought that goes into the play, making it reward mechanical play more than the other races.

What really makes me sad about zerg in sc2 is that larvae is no longer that extra resource and in many cases the most precious one, above gas and minerals. For a huge part of the game you had to be aware of your larva and what you were doing with them. SC2 removed a lot of that complexity with queens. It still exists but to a very small degree compared to SC.
lu_cid
Profile Joined April 2008
United States428 Posts
May 17 2010 14:26 GMT
#173
They should have just nerfed spawn larva a long time ago, like maybe one larva less. It seems like the simplest solution. The game would have been much easier to balance from there, most of the units could have been left alone. Zerg was fundamentally overpowered in the beginning, and it didn't have much to do with specific units. Oh well...
EnderW
Profile Joined March 2010
United States170 Posts
May 17 2010 14:27 GMT
#174
Amen to the brother artosis!

Honestly though, I'm glad someone has the sense to point these kind of factors out to the community!
Learn from the mistakes of others, because you wont live long enough to make them all yourself.
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
May 17 2010 14:35 GMT
#175
People are saying the zerg aren't easier to learn strategically just because they have fewer units...

Uh what?

Look at the zerg army...

9 combat units, overlords, and queens

Ultralisks - proven time and time again to be useless
Corruptors - Strategically uninteresting, if you don't immediately know what you use them for you fail.

So that brings us down to 7 units for our composition already

Broodlords - Also strategically uninteresting really. You get late game, you make broodlords, you kill stuff from a safe distance. They're too slow to do anything cute and too powerful to be a bad choice.

So really you're left with Mutalisks, Hydras, Roaches, Zerglings, Banelings, and Infestors. These 6 units make up the majority of your army (until broodlords). So that's 6 or 7 units zerg have to mix with. Even further some units like banelings have clear uses as do Infestors. They're great 'mix ins', but they don't make an army in and of itself. Even more Mutalisks are weakish air units (great at harass of course) and we generally know they don't hold up in a full on battle if it involves units like marines or thors. The range of mutalisks is such that they can't partake in a battle and be safe from their counters (range 3 and all that). So really our main force is down to Hydra, Roach, and Zergling. It's no surprise that this is what you see the majority of zerg go. Zerg have the three main units to base their army off of, 4 if you think mutas are viable as a combat force, very specific uses of corruptors, broodlords to add in later, and a few other situational units we can pump in to help.

Meanwhile look at Protoss. Stalker/Zealot usually make the core of a zerg army but look at all the additions they can add on. Sentries, Colossi, Immortals, Phoenixes, Void Rays, and High Templars can all be mixed in (and in different compositions) to create an army. All of those choices bring a good amount of utility to any army with phoenixes are probably the choice that fills the most situational role. So for a race like Protoss you're looking at double or triple the choices in what units to add to your core, and that's even after excluding units like DTs or carrier for perceptually having less battle utility.

I think it's absurd to say that it's harder to learn ideal compositions for something like Protoss compared to Zerg. There are just so many more choices and viable compositions. Zerg have the largest set of 'core' units, but the smallest set of additional units. I think it's a lot easier to figure out how to model the core of your army than it is to figure out the right time and right uses of the additional units. That's why zerg are easier to understand strategically.
Logo
Turbo.Tactics
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany675 Posts
May 17 2010 14:38 GMT
#176
What really makes me sad about zerg in sc2 is that larvae is no longer that extra resource and in many cases the most precious one, above gas and minerals. For a huge part of the game you had to be aware of your larva and what you were doing with them. SC2 removed a lot of that complexity with queens. It still exists but to a very small degree compared to SC.


That is just plainly wrong! A lot of people argue that the Queen destroyed the Zergs constant problem of chosing between units and drones. Droning is still a thing you have to decide on and you are still limited to larvae. The only diffrence is that you now have more larvae to chose from. But it is wrong to say: hey, zerg has more larvae and therefore you don't have to chose between drones and units because to keep up with the buffed macro of Protoss and Terran (which also got abilitys to speed up their econ) you HAVE to be droning massively to keep up with their economy.

That is another reason why the Roach change is a pain in the butt for Zergs that most Toss and Terran players do not see. More overlords to support Roaches means less spare larvae --> less droning
Zerg - because Browders sons hate 'em
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-17 14:41:10
May 17 2010 14:40 GMT
#177
On May 17 2010 23:38 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
Show nested quote +
What really makes me sad about zerg in sc2 is that larvae is no longer that extra resource and in many cases the most precious one, above gas and minerals. For a huge part of the game you had to be aware of your larva and what you were doing with them. SC2 removed a lot of that complexity with queens. It still exists but to a very small degree compared to SC.


That is just plainly wrong! A lot of people argue that the Queen destroyed the Zergs constant problem of chosing between units and drones. Droning is still a thing you have to decide on and you are still limited to larvae. The only diffrence is that you now have more larvae to chose from. But it is wrong to say: hey, zerg has more larvae and therefore you don't have to chose between drones and units because to keep up with the buffed macro of Protoss and Terran (which also got abilitys to speed up their econ) you HAVE to be droning massively to keep up with their economy.

That is another reason why the Roach change is a pain in the butt for Zergs that most Toss and Terran players do not see. More overlords to support Roaches means less spare larvae --> less droning


I can't speak for top level play, but in my games (1350 plat) I still live and die by my larvae. Almost all of my losses can be traced back to me mismanaging larvae at some point.
Logo
Tray
Profile Joined March 2010
United States122 Posts
May 17 2010 14:42 GMT
#178
Artosis is bias and his lack of logical reasonining in this article pretty much solidifies it. And if I'm being really honest, he's not a good player either. If he played half as well as he cried, he might actually be able to be a legit pro one day. Instead, since he's garbage, he's doomed to always be the guy who commentates and observes and not the guy who plays. Most of the Beta has already caught up to him now that there's a ton more people in the game and he will drift into obscurity upon release.
Turbo.Tactics
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany675 Posts
May 17 2010 14:45 GMT
#179
Artosis is bias and his lack of logical reasonining in this article pretty much solidifies it. And if I'm being really honest, he's not a good player either. If he played half as well as he cried, he might actually be able to be a legit pro one day. Instead, since he's garbage, he's doomed to always be the guy who commentates and observes and not the guy who plays. Most of the Beta has already caught up to him now that there's a ton more people in the game and he will drift into obscurity upon release.


I sense a troll
Zerg - because Browders sons hate 'em
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
May 17 2010 14:51 GMT
#180
Like I said it exists, but if you think larva management is anywhere near as insanely important as it was in SC you are really wrong. Scouting and awareness can usually indicate whether you should have just sddddddddddddddddddddddddd'd or not in sc2.

Just because zerg players are greedy as fuck and try to power drone to 60+ every game even when their opponent is clearly still on one base doesn't mean larva management is as important a skill as it was in SC. It just isn't, by virtue of there being so much more of it whenever you want. If you have near perfect inject timing you will often times be waiting for minerals early-mid game, not larva.. It's a thousand times less punishing than in SC. It's more in line with the same way all other production management is important.
Prev 1 7 8 9 10 11 17 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #101
CranKy Ducklings238
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 40
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 13510
Rain 7837
Calm 5083
Horang2 1970
Flash 1045
Hyuk 602
BeSt 491
Mini 437
ggaemo 262
Soma 247
[ Show more ]
Last 240
TY 201
ZerO 179
Dewaltoss 113
PianO 111
Mind 97
Rush 65
soO 59
sSak 59
Aegong 53
Free 52
Sacsri 39
sorry 31
NaDa 30
HiyA 29
Noble 26
Hm[arnc] 8
Icarus 8
Sea.KH 7
ivOry 6
Stormgate
NightEnD7
Dota 2
XcaliburYe967
XaKoH 676
League of Legends
febbydoto13
Counter-Strike
x6flipin568
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King87
Westballz32
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor251
Other Games
singsing2241
B2W.Neo969
DeMusliM299
Pyrionflax195
Fuzer 195
SortOf132
RotterdaM55
ZerO(Twitch)17
Organizations
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 40
EmSc2Tv 40
StarCraft: Brood War
CasterMuse 20
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 29
• StrangeGG 14
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1054
Upcoming Events
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3h 44m
BSL
7h 44m
Bonyth vs Hawk
Wardi Open
23h 44m
RotterdaM Event
1d 4h
Replay Cast
1d 12h
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 23h
RSL Revival
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Summer Champion…
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
LiuLi Cup
4 days
Online Event
5 days
SC Evo League
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

StarCon 2025 Philadelphia LAN
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.