Over-nerfed: Why Zerg dominated Korea. - Page 11

On May 18 2010 01:26 BigDates wrote:
Wouldnt this also mean that once the game has been out for a year, zerg will be GREATLY inferior, due to the fact that well, we will have the same core strategies, as the Ultralisk is probably never going to be used mainstream so long as it dies to units that get + to armor so easily in my opinion anyways.

On May 18 2010 01:31 floor exercise wrote:
Why zerg gets over nerfed:

Zerg only has 9 units. If you nerf a zerg unit, you have effectively nerfed 11.1% of the zerg race. Terran has 14 units, so a nerf to a terran unit is only a 7.14% effective nerf rate to the race. Meanwhile, Protoss has a whopping 27 units so often times a single unit nerf goes completely unnoticed for weeks because it represents a paltry 3.7% nerf rate.

On May 18 2010 00:19 LionsFist wrote:
The only thing I'd make, as maybe an alternative way of looking at the starting point.

Excluding movement micro and what parts of your army are where, Zerg have the following significant effects requiring army micro:
- Burrow, probably only significantly useful on roaches for most fights.
- Mind control
- Fungal growth
- Corruption
- Infested Terran #

While Protoss have:
- Storm
- Feedback
- Forcefield
- Blink
- Guardian Shield
- Vortex
- Gravaton Beam
- Mass recall
- Phase Archon
- Hallucinations #
- Warp prison phase mode #
- Spawn Interceptors #

And Terran have:
- Stim
- EMP
- Nuke
- Snipe
- 250mm Strike Cannons
- Auto-turret #
- PDD
- Hunter Seeker missile
- Cloak on Banshees and Ghosts
- Siege mode
- Viking assault/fighter mode

# = Things that are pretty much non-event abilities in most large army fights. I also judge them based on the assumption you have that unit. (Yes, you can contest me on any of those, I'm just talking general)

Take from that, what you will.

Personally, I see it meaning that T and P must use these extra abilities to the best to pull to equality in a situation of equal army/equal counter etc. Hence Zerg players are generally more macro orientated players. Yes, there are micro elements also involved in movement (ie. microing phoenix and vikings to get the best damage ratio out of them vs another air unit, or voidray micro abusing landscape or surrounding buildings to charge up on, or flanking/surrounding units). But presuming them all equal, I would see the Zerg having an inherant built-in easier time using armies, and definately not getting penalised for NOT using these abilities to their fullest.

EDIT:
Also the other point with zerg is that their major counter units are one of 4 of their main units. Either hydra/roach/muta/ling. That's it. If you are up against an army, almost always (excluding a few specific combinations) using a heavy composition of one of those, with light combinations of the others mixed in, and 1-4 of the other support units thrown in. It's a lot harder to make a hard counter of a zerg army, as undoubtedly they cover each others weaknesses so well. (Note: I did not say impossible, just harder than Protoss or Zerg)

On May 18 2010 01:41 Hapahauli wrote:
Quantity of units has no direct relation to game balance..

What have the top Korean Zerg players been doing since the last Zerg nerf in Patch 12? Well, I can't speak for all of them, but two of the very top players, Cool[fOu] and TheWinD, have both been practicing Terran on the Asian Ladder.

On May 18 2010 01:16 No_Roo wrote:
I usually take artosis seriously however this time I had to stop reading after:

Zerg: 9
Terran: 12
Protoss: 14

If artosis feels that his case isn't strong enough to stand this time around without recklessly exaggerating facts then I don't really see any point to consider the rest of it. We all trust you well enough to count to 14 properly, why not extend us the same credit?

Anyway stop doing that so intelligent people can go back to agreeing with you.

On May 18 2010 02:03 roemy wrote:
so... following the same logic:

with neural parasite, zerg has 35 possible units

On May 18 2010 02:01 fathead wrote:


1. zealot
2. stalker
3. immortal
4. HT
5. Colossus
6. Archon
7. Mothership
8. Phoenix
9. Void Ray
10. Carrier
11. Dark Templar
12. Sentry
13. Warp Prism
14. Observer

He said usable units not units that can shoot. If anything he underestimated toss since the probe has the ability to build forward pylons which are very offensive.

On May 18 2010 01:45 NicolBolas wrote:


This is an interesting argument. Let's compare SC2 Zerg micro options to SC1 Zerg micro options:

- Burrow. Primarily used for Lurkers, who get it for free.
- Dark Swarm
- Plague
- Consume
- Mutalisk micro *

* Not technically an ability, but it is an important micro option in SC1.

I didn't list Queen abilities, as those are simply not used in competitive play.

While it is easy to argue that the Zerg options in SC2 are not as strong as the SC1 ones (though this is primarily due to these abilities being Tier 2 rather than Tier 3 as in SC1), it is clear that the Zerg have about the same number of micro options in SC2 as SC1.

Something similar goes for the main units. In SC1, you had Ling/Hydra/Muta as your main units that you mass up lots of, with a few Lurkers, Defilers, and Ultralisks thrown in for support. It's Hydra/Lurk or Lurker/Ling or Ultra/Ling or Muta/Ling, etc.

On May 18 2010 02:15 BigDates wrote:



Yes let me mind control your 50 mineral 1 supply marine with my 2 supply 150 gas 100 mineral infestor. You cant simply state that zerg has 35 units they can make, because only a VERY FEW units are worth it to mind control, not to mention once the infestor dies you get your unit back and i lose mine (this isnt the case for other units is it)

I could see how you could raise this number a little bit with mind control, but 35 is just rediculous of a number to state, as it is useless to use mind control on ALOT of strategies (against ling/baneling/muta, against roach hydra, against any terran with tanks, or an MMM ball, against non collosus / mothership builds)

And we all know pretty much all terrans get tanks now-adays, so fungal growth on the army that is trying to bait me to his tanks are a much better idea, that or base dropping, o burrow roaching.

Your terrible =)

On May 18 2010 02:25 Ghostcom wrote:



If you want to count the warp prism and lolmothership you better be counting the nydus worm, overlords, overseers and queens as well.... Biased counting is biased - if you count one transport ship you have to count them all.

EDIT: and you should also count in the changeling as it is the equivalent of an observer.