EPTOver-nerfed: Why Zerg dominated Korea. - Page 12
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
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No_Roo
United States905 Posts
On May 18 2010 02:01 fathead wrote: 1. zealot 2. stalker 3. immortal 4. HT 5. Colossus 6. Archon 7. Mothership 8. Phoenix 9. Void Ray 10. Carrier 11. Dark Templar 12. Sentry 13. Warp Prism 14. Observer He said usable units not units that can shoot. If anything he underestimated toss since the probe has the ability to build forward pylons which are very offensive. I am talking about him counting only 9 zerg units. and ignoring the overlord/overseer while including the observer and warp prism. 1, Zergling 2. Roach 3. Queen 4. Overlord 5. Overseer 6. Hydralisk 7. Infestor 8. Mutalisk 9. Corruptor 10. Brood lord 11. Ultralisk | ||
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roemy
Germany432 Posts
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Scope
Sweden147 Posts
Zerg: 11 Drone Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Ultralisk Infestor Protoss: 13 Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Archon Immortal Collossus Carrier Void Ray Phoenix Mothership Terran: 12 SCV Marine Reaper Marauder Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Banshee Raven Battle Cruiser Units in italics are rarely used. I think it's a valid point that zerg has fewer choices, Now I think they are fun as hell to play, and I'm not sad about the roach nerf. But I am really hoping for another unit, or at least some more combatty abilities for the overseer. | ||
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:02 Scope wrote: Okay, how about an unbiased count. Included are units that can be built, deal damage (either regularly or with an ability) and that take up supply. No utility units, no units with timed life like the broodling or the infested terran. Zerg: 11 Drone Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Ultralisk Infestor Protoss: 13 Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Archon Immortal Collossus Carrier Void Ray Phoenix Mothership Terran: 12 SCV Marine Reaper Marauder Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Banshee Raven Battle Cruiser Units in italics are rarely used. I think it's a valid point that zerg has fewer choices, Now I think they are fun as hell to play, and I'm not sad about the roach nerf. But I am really hoping for another unit, or at least some more combatty abilities for the overseer. So if we a take a look at it, in fact protoss has the fewest often used units.... Don't really know what I want to say about this, except that I find it sorta funny  | ||
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fathead
United States158 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:02 Scope wrote: Okay, how about an unbiased count. Included are units that can be built, deal damage (either regularly or with an ability) and that take up supply. No utility units, no units with timed life like the broodling or the infested terran. Zerg: 11 Drone Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Ultralisk Infestor Protoss: 13 Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Archon Immortal Collossus Carrier Void Ray Phoenix Mothership Terran: 12 SCV Marine Reaper Marauder Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Banshee Raven Battle Cruiser Units in italics are rarely used. I think it's a valid point that zerg has fewer choices, Now I think they are fun as hell to play, and I'm not sad about the roach nerf. But I am really hoping for another unit, or at least some more combatty abilities for the overseer. Workers are usable units? Queen are usable units? Queen are just mobile addons to hatcheries. If queens are usable then so are Planetary Fortresses. Also you forgot to put Roaches in italics. | ||
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Scope
Sweden147 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:17 Ghostcom wrote: So if we a take a look at it, in fact protoss has the fewest often used units.... Don't really know what I want to say about this, except that I find it sorta funny If you count only often used ground units, zerg with seven is behind terran and protoss with eight each. And if I had 13 units to choose between, I'd be likely to skip a few as well. Besides, the unused status on the mothership is doubtful, and I do see archons every once in a while. I saw ultras for two days after the latest buff, otherwise I have never encountered them. | ||
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Scope
Sweden147 Posts
I agree that Queens are doubtful, but I have seen them being pretty much spammed in high level games. (check out TLO vs White-Ra in HDH) They are anti-air defensive units. TLO even took out a nexus with a queen and some drones using a nydus worm, vs Nazgul if I remember correctly. And don't try to tell me you have never used workers to fight off rushes. Besides, counting workers doesn't really affect the count since it's equal for all three races. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:26 fathead wrote: Workers are usable units? Queen are usable units? Queen are just mobile addons to hatcheries. If queens are usable then so are Planetary Fortresses. Also you forgot to put Roaches in italics. Do you happen to lose to VRs often? Queens are VERY useful units and could be used for a very strong push with lings before they got their speed nerfed to slower than slow. And stop your pointless whining. Artosis made a biased count, this count is at least not biased. | ||
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palanq
United States761 Posts
more seriously though I'd like to wait for more data on how top tier zerg plays out now before jumping to conclusions about how awful the recent nerfs have been for zerg. | ||
Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:26 fathead wrote: Workers are usable units? Queen are usable units? Queen are just mobile addons to hatcheries. If queens are usable then so are Planetary Fortresses. Also you forgot to put Roaches in italics. Okay, so it's subjective but close enough to show there isn't a massive disparity. | ||
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fathead
United States158 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:30 Scope wrote: @ fathead I agree that Queens are doubtful, but I have seen them being pretty much spammed in high level games. (check out TLO vs White-Ra in HDH) They are anti-air defensive units. Which illustrates how weak zerg is vs air. And why are queens not in italics then? And if queens are counted because they fend off air then why isn't planetary fortresses there since they negate zerling CC snipe completely? On May 18 2010 03:30 Scope wrote: And don't try to tell me you have never used workers to fight off rushes. Besides, counting workers doesn't really affect the count since it's equal for all three races. Fair enough but then where are mules? I thought this was an unbiased list? | ||
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KaRnaGe[cF]
United States355 Posts
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Scope
Sweden147 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:36 fathead wrote: Which illustrates how weak zerg is vs air. And why are queens not in italics then? And if queens are counted because they fend off air then why isn't planetary fortresses there since they negate zerling CC snipe completely? Fair enough but then where are mules? I thought this was an unbiased list? You haven't properly read my post, so I only reluctantly respond. I only included units that can do damage, therefore the MULE goes since it can't attack. I also haven't included static defenses, therefore you dont see missile turrets, spine and spore crawlers, photon cannons or planetary fortresses. Queens are not in italics since they are not rarely used, and they are included because they can move and do damage. Before you even try to say that so do spine and spore crawlers, I wrote in the inital post that I only included units that take up supply. Please read posts before responding. Idiot. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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fathead
United States158 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:32 Chill wrote: Okay, so it's subjective but close enough to show there isn't a massive disparity. I think that's what it shows is that there are many way to count effective units. I actually don't like the way Artosis counted units at all. I think a better example would be that zerg has fewer effective strategies/options. Just look at how many openings Terran has. Branching off a single fast tech lab build they can reaper rush, helion rush, thor drop, banshee rush, viking rush, marauder push, or even rush ghosts. And they all have the same B/O up to the first tech lab. Vs Terran all Zerg can open with is F/E into macro, fast muta, ling harrass, baneling bust, and ummmm. Hmm I can't think of any other's of the top of my head. I am sure I am missing some, but the underlining point is less options regardless of how you count units. | ||
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fathead
United States158 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:43 Scope wrote: You haven't properly read my post, so I only reluctantly respond. I only included units that can do damage, therefore the MULE goes since it can't attack. I also haven't included static defenses, therefore you dont see missile turrets, spine and spore crawlers, photon cannons or planetary fortresses. Queens are not in italics since they are not rarely used, and they are included because they can move and do damage. Before you even try to say that so do spine and spore crawlers, I wrote in the inital post that I only included units that take up supply. Please read posts before responding. Idiot. That's fine but then that's not what Artosis is talking about. He said usable units (which to me implies a unit that is not meant to just sit in base, but used for map control, or scouting, or combat, or spells) not units that do damage. I can't get on you for misunderstanding you (which I did) but you can't do the same to Artosis. Also calling Queen non static is a little unfair. True they technically are non static but I wouldn't call them mobile either. | ||
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In1t4themoney
Germany77 Posts
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Scope
Sweden147 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:44 fathead wrote: I think that's what it shows is that there are many way to count effective units. I actually don't like the way Artosis counted units at all. I think a better example would be that zerg has fewer effective strategies/options. Just look at how many openings Terran has. Branching off a single fast tech lab build they can reaper rush, helion rush, thor drop, banshee rush, viking rush, marauder push, or even rush ghosts. And they all have the same B/O up to the first tech lab. Vs Terran all Zerg can open with is F/E into macro, fast muta, ling harrass, baneling bust, and ummmm. Hmm I can't think of any other's of the top of my head. I am sure I am missing some, but the underlining point is less options regardless of how you count units. Interestingly, many Terrans complain that they absolutely have to harass Zerg or else Zerg macro will utterly destroy them. If this is truly the case it is only logical that Terran have many ways to do so. Also, you forgot roach rush, which is probably less viable now, and fast tech to mass hydras. Where Zerg lacks, and this is what I think you are hinting at, possibly subconsciously, is in harassment options. Particularly vs a walled in Terran, there are not many ways that zerg can respond to harassment. Overlord drops, nydus worms, mutalisks, possibly some baneling build that isn't all-in. All this while terran have Reapers, Hellions, Banshees and Vikings, all excellent harassment units. But this is a dynamic that changes as the game goes on. Several matchups in brood war had similar dynamics. | ||
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zomgzergrush
United States923 Posts
Honestly, I don't see what the big issue roaches were. I find that they were actually a huge liability because they get countered so hard so early by everything P/T have in mauraders/immortals. These rendered roaches completely useless. Z were already being forced to move out of a roach centered army pre-patch... | ||
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