Patch 12 - Changes and Discussion - Page 31

Zelniq

United States7166 Posts

May 13 2010 19:29 GMT

#601

dont understand where some of these posts about diversity are coming from at all

many players fell back on just massing roach as their staple unit, usually using hydra to back them up. roach/hydra was what some players did in every matchup vs any unit comps..with adding some infestors/broods usually.

this change should promote the use of not only other units but some other tactics/strategy employed as well

they just need to add the ultra changes and melee vs forcefield changes imo

Raelcun

United States3747 Posts

May 13 2010 19:29 GMT

#602

That roach change is so pointless... Okay so previously they had an armor removed to make its power more like a 1 supply unit then they up the supply to 2 without changing the armor back? If you're going to up the supply on a roach at least buff the roach so it's useful and not just a trash unit.

lynx.oblige

Sierra Leone2268 Posts

May 13 2010 19:30 GMT

#603

On May 14 2010 04:27 Lollersauce wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yes, lings are a great counter to hellions. If there's just two of them.

You should be making roaches at that point. You're looking at it too linearly. If you can't surround/kill the hellions with zergling/queen, you can buy enough time to get roaches. It's really not incredibly difficult for Zerg as well as not even close to ezmod victory for Terran.

Level up?

RogerChillingworth

Chad3104 Posts

May 13 2010 19:30 GMT

#604

I'm just saying that i see more whining rather than adapting :\ This encourages players to try new things.

Dude...I'm all for adapting. Fuck, I didn't like the dynamics of the zerg match-ups (roach rushing tosses who invariably 2 gate to fuck your FE, mutalisks vs. terran, speedlings in zvz), but in order to adapt you need something to adapt TO. Please, Protoss/Terran player who does terrible terrible damage and can fly high off 2-base, tell me what I'm missing.

Salteador Neo

Andorra5591 Posts

May 13 2010 19:31 GMT

#605

Meh i don't really like the smaller Thor.

And the roach nerf just confirms Terran as the best race ez.

Talic_Zealot

688 Posts

May 13 2010 19:31 GMT

#606

Jesus that thor looks funny :D

onmach

United States1241 Posts

May 13 2010 19:32 GMT

#607

One thing people might think about. This may be designed to lessen the important of ranged upgrades in preparation for upgrading the ultra. Since you cannot rely as much on roaches, is it really the best use of your resources to upgrade range instead of melee now? Especially after the ultra change comes.

Azarkon

United States21060 Posts

May 13 2010 19:32 GMT

#608

On May 14 2010 04:28 ghen wrote:
btw, vortex forcefield was nerfed due to this:

Good catch.

I do think Blizzard is paying attention to the youtube videos, especially those of StarcraftScientist who tries to discover tricks and/or exploits in the game, and that this will lead to a game with much fewer "unintended features" as BW, for better or for worse.

TSL-Lore

United States412 Posts

May 13 2010 19:33 GMT

#609

On May 14 2010 04:29 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
That roach change is so pointless... Okay so previously they had an armor removed to make its power more like a 1 supply unit then they up the supply to 2 without changing the armor back? If you're going to up the supply on a roach at least buff the roach so it's useful and not just a trash unit.

no, stop saying "buff the roach to match the 2 supply." Stop building problem upon problem upon problem.

This is an unacceptable change to an already unacceptable unit. The zerg is a festering pool of problems all layered upon another, and blizzard doesn't know how to clean it up. All they know is how to add another layer.

-Frog-

United States514 Posts

May 13 2010 19:33 GMT

#610

Just played a couple games with the new roaches and the increased supply doesn't seem that bad. I faced a 2 gating P on Steppes and managed to hold it off after I had already expanded with 6 lings and roaches. I think his build could have been optimized slightly better but I just had to make sure I had another OL on the way and i was able to fend it off.

Zelniq

United States7166 Posts

May 13 2010 19:33 GMT

#611

i agree that they should be improved in some other way now..i really hope/expect to see it in the future

their power is a little bit too low to justify their cost. i do agree they should be 2 supply (due to the sheer huge numbers you could get before you max out) but also think they need some other compensation

Ecael

United States6703 Posts

May 13 2010 19:33 GMT

#612

On May 14 2010 04:21 Bibdy wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 14 2010 04:15 Ecael wrote:

On May 14 2010 04:10 Bibdy wrote:

On May 14 2010 03:43 TSL-Lore wrote:
Making the roach 2 food is completely the wrong direction and shows that Blizzard has pigeon-holed themselves into non-creative and un-fun changes with no regard for the flavor of the race. By making the roach 2 food, they're completely destroying the philosophy of "quantity over quality" that zerg users knew and fell in love with. The change is a lazy one.

Some people in this thread have voted to "increase the power of the roach to match its 2 psi requirement" but this is the wrong way about it as well. What kind of tier 1 zerg unit costs 2 food? It doesn't fit, damnit. the roach "vehicle design" was wrong to begin with. The entire point of the macro mechanics of the zerg race was to be able to produce weaker units, but at a much higher production rate than any other race. The hatchery/larvae injection mechanic is designed for this. The roach may or may not need a nerf, but the nerf should come in making the unit itself weaker and/or faster... not make it bulkier and cost more (that is the way of the protoss).

I hate this change, not because it is a nerf, but because it is not Zerg.

See, that's a legitimate piece of feedback. I like it. Nerfing Roach stats would be a better alternative than changing supply costs.

I can't stand all of this complaining how the Roach is now 50% as strong because of a supply cost nerf. Are people really that bad at math? If the Collossus cost 1 food today, what would happen? Nothing! One-base can still only produce one Collossus at a time, so its not like I'm going to have overwhelming numbers of the things in an instant. I'll just have spare minerals, from not having to build so many Pylons, to pump extra Zealots, build Cannons etc.

The supply cost nerf is little different to a resource cost nerf. Its just 12.5 extra minerals per Roach, and an extra larva on occasion.

Like someone else said, it forces Zs to have more spare population sitting around because we can't pump emergency roaches for defense now. That hurts, but it isn't too unreasonable, sort of. The real problem lies higher up in supply when you start hitting caps. A 200/200 army composed of roaches will now have 100 roaches instead of 200, a very real difference, right? While it isn't reasonable to expect that Zs will be massing just roaches, it does mean that what was a significant backbone of Z army will now be half as many. And, unfortunately, that half turns out to be the part that's helping Zs tank damage till it gets within a distance to strike. So the longer the game gets, the more crippling this nerf to tanking ability shows.

So really, was 200/200 Z late game army flat out beating toss and terran? That's the only situation I can see that would justify this kind of a change to supply. And that's assuming we have a significant portion of that army being roaches.

Given their spiel about large numbers of Roaches in long games, maybe the Roach wall was just too strong. Your army certainly isn't going to be 50% as effective, unless you're literally spamming Roaches to 200 Supply and kill all your Workers doing it, you just have half as many Roaches (or have to build less Hydras/Mutas/whatever to keep your tank wall as strong).

That would be the safe assumption, except as Z I never felt like my roach wall survives all that long against P or T armies as it is. Maybe I am just not good, maybe I also need to mix in more fungal growths, maybe a lot of things...but in all I just don't quite see a replacement for roaches as the game wears on. The roach wall is certainly weaker now, but nothing seems to be able to take the spot of the said wall in the first place.

So really, was the wall so hard to break that we need to cut its number in half?

LawnMower

Sweden557 Posts

May 13 2010 19:34 GMT

#613

On May 14 2010 04:28 ghen wrote:
btw, vortex forcefield was nerfed due to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C_rK5sCmR4

Wow that's pretty sick, thanks for showing.

SichuanPanda

Canada1542 Posts

May 13 2010 19:35 GMT

#614

On May 14 2010 04:29 Archerofaiur wrote:
Wow. I like how flowers are knee high on the new thor :p

[image loading]

They really need to make the cockpit larger.

People complain about the Thor being to big. They make it smaller, now its too small?..... Really?

CubE.

Canada39 Posts

May 13 2010 19:35 GMT

#615

On May 14 2010 04:29 Zelniq wrote:
dont understand where some of these posts about diversity are coming from at all

many players fell back on just massing roach as their staple unit, usually using hydra to back them up. roach/hydra was what some players did in every matchup vs any unit comps..with adding some infestors/broods usually.

this change should promote the use of not only other units but some other tactics/strategy employed as well

they just need to add the ultra changes and melee vs forcefield changes imo

People keep screaming ADAPT. What am I going to adapt to? Zerg has 3.5 ground units lings/blings roaches and hydras. I am not factoring in Ultralisks forcefield owns them so does a few marauders. As it stands now they are a massive waste of money. By severely handicapping 1 unit there is now 2.5 units I can transition to. How is that diversity. Terran has 7 ground units protoss has 5 ground units not counting dt as they are basically an all in unit.

Where am I diversifying too?

okrane

France265 Posts

May 13 2010 19:35 GMT

#616

I'm sad to say, I feel like Zerg needs a major rework. Twinkering with the numbers is not what the race needs at the moment. A major overhaul is needed. Sadly this late in the beta, I doubt it will be the case.

Bosu

United States3247 Posts

May 13 2010 19:35 GMT

#617

I am expecting an overhaul of zerg over the next few patches if they keep this roach change. Which I am fine with. I hate roaches.

Raelcun

United States3747 Posts

May 13 2010 19:35 GMT

#618

On May 14 2010 04:33 TSL-Lore wrote:

Show nested quote +

My point is that this change is completely stupid because if they're going to up the supply without buffing it then it makes the already bad change even worse. So basically you're going to limit the total army size of zergs hmm not like mid/lategame roaches die in 5 seconds anyway NO NEVER HAPPENS. So now there will be less... right. I don't agree with the change at all but if you're going to even look competant you have to adjust the unit when you up it's supply at the same time.

spinesheath

Germany8679 Posts

May 13 2010 19:36 GMT

#619

On May 14 2010 04:33 Zelniq wrote:

Show nested quote +

If anything the supply should go back to 1 with nerfed stats. It's getting ridiculous when Terran has more units on the field than Zerg.

Jyvblamo

Canada13788 Posts

May 13 2010 19:36 GMT

#620

Ever notice how with every patch, Blizzard dilutes and dulls their original ideas for the game? Zerg becoming less swarm-like, thors getting smaller, etc.
This just seems like a bad way to balance the game.

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