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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
On May 14 2010 04:19 Lollersauce wrote: Uh.. no you won't. You'll have less minerals and larva from making OL's to support the same # of roaches. Did I say minerals? You won't have as many roaches but the teching will go quicker. I never used roaches in the early game that often anyway. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23470 Posts
On May 14 2010 04:19 Lollersauce wrote: Uh.. no you won't. You'll have less minerals and larva from making OL's to support the same # of roaches. ..Which means with the same amount of minerals mined you'll have less roaches --> more gas available! | ||
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teedee
United Kingdom15 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On May 14 2010 04:15 Ecael wrote: Like someone else said, it forces Zs to have more spare population sitting around because we can't pump emergency roaches for defense now. That hurts, but it isn't too unreasonable, sort of. The real problem lies higher up in supply when you start hitting caps. A 200/200 army composed of roaches will now have 100 roaches instead of 200, a very real difference, right? While it isn't reasonable to expect that Zs will be massing just roaches, it does mean that what was a significant backbone of Z army will now be half as many. And, unfortunately, that half turns out to be the part that's helping Zs tank damage till it gets within a distance to strike. So the longer the game gets, the more crippling this nerf to tanking ability shows. So really, was 200/200 Z late game army flat out beating toss and terran? That's the only situation I can see that would justify this kind of a change to supply. And that's assuming we have a significant portion of that army being roaches. Given their spiel about large numbers of Roaches in long games, maybe the Roach wall was just too strong. Your army certainly isn't going to be 50% as effective, unless you're literally spamming Roaches to 200 Supply and kill all your Workers doing it, you just have half as many Roaches (or have to build less Hydras/Mutas/whatever to keep your tank wall as strong). | ||
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Lollersauce
United States357 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On May 14 2010 04:20 roemy wrote: with the thor now being smaller than a siege tank: take the "massive" attribute from the thor and give it to the siege tank (so it can't be stunned by marauders or lifted by phoenixes) who's with me o/ Yeah, it always bugged me that deployed siege tanks could be lifted. I mean, they brace themselves into the ground for crying out loud. | ||
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orgon
United States20 Posts
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On May 14 2010 02:50 HeyheyLBJ wrote: So they just have to nerf Zerg every patch? Copper players 12 - Real players 0 Blizzard has said they only look at Plat stats. So please refrain from posting when you don't know whats up. Forge change is obviously to slow down these annoying cannon rushes. The vortex change seems both useless and random... who's going to use this massive ability to remove a spammable ability. Thor change is another weird change. I suppose it lets them move between gaps and makes it so less melee units can surround them. Lol at roach change. That is huge. | ||
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SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
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Castaface
Finland34 Posts
For me, roach was never a big mass T1 unit, cept in ZvZ maybe. I think the unit becomes really powerful at T2 with the burrow + roach warren upgrades and with proper micro you can save a lot of roaches instead of just using it as an attack-move meatshield, thus increasing the unit's value. I do feel a bit underpowered vs terran mech etc. and feel like I have to often suicide my army wave after wave to get rid of a single wave of the terran army, while having superior economy. In late game, increasing roach supply cost will make it annoying to quickly reinforce your army, assuming you're capped. Even with multiple bases, hydras cost so much gas that you have to spam some of your larva to roaches. Then again, if the game reaches that point, you should probably have been teching to broodlords anyway and not stick to such a heavy roach army. If you play tournaments for money it might be better to learn an additional race but for the rest, I'd stay stick to what you enjoy. | ||
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Jusciax
Lithuania588 Posts
On May 14 2010 03:43 TSL-Lore wrote: Making the roach 2 food is completely the wrong direction and shows that Blizzard has pigeon-holed themselves into non-creative and un-fun changes with no regard for the flavor of the race. By making the roach 2 food, they're completely destroying the philosophy of "quantity over quality" that zerg users knew and fell in love with. The change is a lazy one. Some people in this thread have voted to "increase the power of the roach to match its 2 psi requirement" but this is the wrong way about it as well. What kind of tier 1 zerg unit costs 2 food? It doesn't fit, damnit. the roach "vehicle design" was wrong to begin with. The entire point of the macro mechanics of the zerg race was to be able to produce weaker units, but at a much higher production rate than any other race. The hatchery/larvae injection mechanic is designed for this. The roach may or may not need a nerf, but the nerf should come in making the unit itself weaker and/or faster... not make it bulkier and cost more (that is the way of the protoss). I hate this change, not because it is a nerf, but because it is not Zerg. Very true, sir. Completely agree. | ||
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HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
On May 14 2010 04:05 ShinSa.NokCha wrote: The game is still in beta for christ sake~ Why is everyone screaming about imbalanced? Every game goes through changes in their beta stages to help balance the game before the OFFICIAL release. Nothing is permanent why can't you guys just enjoy the game and discover lots of new build orders or strategies rather than hug roaches~ :\ I've encountered so many roach rushes, i don't even bother scouting zerg half the time. Its more fun when i actually have to read my opponent~ Yeah it's a beta so clearly we shouldn't be discussing anything that has to do with the game. I mean, that's what official releases are for! | ||
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Xursian
Canada94 Posts
Cannons are weaker, not the best choice, However increasing the forge time helps a bit with cannon rushing... Roaches are being gimped a bit, But increasing their attack times or decreasing their range could of been better balancing choices, depending.... Overall Good balancing tweaks, Lets test them out, and give feed back to blizzard. | ||
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Talic_Zealot
688 Posts
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poor newb
United States1879 Posts
On May 14 2010 04:15 Zelniq wrote: wtf? queens + lings are more than enough to stop reapers man. queen stalls for ling speed to finish speedlings can only chase away a few reapers, once they got enough reapers together they easily destroy lings with micro | ||
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Bluerain
United States348 Posts
u cant balance the game based on win ratios b/w matchups.... right now i think Zerg is the hardest to play when looking at general mechanics (spawn larvea instead of the logical make units from a production building) so this makes lots of newcomers shy away from the race (i know a lot of ppl who dont play zerg cus its "weird"). this alone makes the type of players who play a race very skewed. i think this explains why there are so many good korean Zs since its a more demanding race. with that said, i think Terran is prolly still going to come out being the best race and most micro demanding like in sc1 | ||
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CubE.
Canada39 Posts
On May 14 2010 04:15 onmach wrote: No offense to the other zergs, but I'm a fan of the roach change. It was the ultimate mass up unit. It was like a marauder would be if it were 1 supply. It will hurt just a bit in the early game and hurt a lot in the late game. That is exactly how it should be. There should be no way to get 100+ roaches in the late game, just as there is no way to get 100+ marauders. Hopefully this will encourage more diverse play, although it definitely is a downgrade late game, and I hope the ultra change coming down the pipe are worthwhile, otherwise we'll be having some trouble. The marauder is better than the roach at just about everything other than being a damage shield. This however does not matter because the marauder has so much offensive power it is shocking (conc shell, stim, and +to armored) YAHTZEEE. If the roach was as good as the marauder I would have no problem it costing 2 supply. Unfortunately it is no where close. It will hurt a hell of a lot more early game than late game. What should the zerg diversify into? Mass hydra or mass ling or mass muta? There is really nothing to transition too. There is no diversity. | ||
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Twitchzor
Sweden33 Posts
-Blizzard perhaps figured 200 roaches are the most scary force to mass? -It is quite common to mass a huge roach force and Blizzard wanted to change that. -Another reasoning is that they want us to use Ultras in the lategame as meatshields rather than Roaches when the Ultra will be buffed/changed. In fact Ultras as meatshields are even viable now with the roach nerf in place. 145HP * 6 food = 870HP Ultra has 600HP. Now it's 435HP vs 600HP. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
 More seriously: There is a good chance that they put the roach change in to gauge how Zerg strategies would evolve before buffing ultralisks. They waited quite a while to do so - even though players were complaining about roaches being food 1 since day one of Beta - implying that they were holding out to see how the match-ups would evolve. Apparently, it has not evolved to their satisfaction, so they decided to go ahead and make a huge change and see which units come to fore now that Zerg don't have roaches to fall back on. This is Beta, after all, so they have every reason to use us as guinea pigs. My predictions: hydralisks are a natural "replacement" for roaches and have been used successfully as a mainstay unit since the very beginning. Their weakness against units like colossi, high templars, and mass marines/tanks/thors, however, means that they will likely have to be supplemented by other units in order to stay competitive. Roaches are still a viable supplement - by no means a "trash" unit - but now ultras, zerglings, and banelings will probably get used a lot more, which I think is what Blizzard wanted to see as well. Another possibility is that people would switch to speedling/muta builds, which has already happened in high-level ZvZ. This will likely lead to a phoenix response from Protoss and even more marine+thor+hellion usage from Terran. Either way, I don't think roaches will play as a big of a role in late-game Zerg armies as before due to the 2 food change, because with Zerg already losing 200/200 battles to well-composed Terran and Protoss armies, halving the number of roaches is probably going to lead to slaughter. | ||
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Chex
United States87 Posts
Awesome. | ||
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