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Smikis
Lithuania117 Posts
everyone can make helion run away from zerglings, and shoot out of his ass like current phoenix just good players know how to run, stop and shoot without getting raped, hellions is already hard counter to any melee bio unit.. would it be zerglings or zealots.. (hydras too duh , but dif category ) | ||
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EntSC
47 Posts
On May 14 2010 05:07 Spawkuring wrote: People keep saying things like this over and over again. "Pros now have the APM to spend it on more interesting things", but they never actually say what these "truly interesting things" are. I can pretty much guarantee that any example given will be something that pros can already do in both SC1 and SC2. I can't help but wonder if any of you guys have ever seen SC1 played at the high level. Even with high APM requirements, there are still TONS of interesting strategies, maneuvers, and tactics that make the game fun to play. In fact, it was the APM requirements that helped make them fun in the first place, because you knew that it took a lot of effort to pull it off. Look, the desire to bring back advanced micro isn't about some nostalgic desire to make SC2 a BW clone. The reason why people want micro tricks back is because they are FUN. They are INTERESTING. They are EFFECTIVE. They are SKILLFUL. Everything that SC2 wants in order to be an awesome game exists in these micro tricks. Does Starcraft 2 have interesting micro and strategies? Yes, but it can have even more in addition to that, and that's why we want them to put things like moving shot back in the game. People keep attacking us as delusional fanboys for wanting features in the game just because SC1 had it, but I think it's the opposite. The delusional fanboys are the people who demand that advanced micro tricks shouldn't be in the game simply because SC1 had them. Whereas the people who want micro tricks in SC2 do so because we have seen with our own eyes how much SC1 benefited from them, and we know that SC2 will benefit from them as well because of how similar it plays to SC1. No doubt this post will prove inflammatory, but I'm totally fed up with people claiming that all of those individuals campaigning for micro tricks in SC2 are bwar fanboys. I'm part of the pseudo-casual crowd. I've had beta access since almost the beginning, and I've only racked up 40 games. This is due to a lack of time, but more recently, also a lack of inclination. I haven't really played any game very much for years, but I was really excited about SC2 because of my memories of bwar. And I've realised since playing SC2 that it was the micro that really made the game interesting. Macro is just as skillful, and the multi-tasking abilities that the pros demonstrate is impressive, but for a casual player it's just not that fun to watch or engage in. This post perfectly highlights how I feel about the game, and it similarly mirrors friends' attitudes that have an even more casual approach to play (those people that haven't picked up a computer game for years, but remember playing SC1 on my computer when we were at Uni). The macro requirements just don't captivate them, whereas micro does. It's exciting, it's interesting, it looks good, and most of all, it's fun. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On May 14 2010 05:35 Archerofaiur wrote: Ok were going to go through the 5 stages of coping that we went though with macro Denial: Players debate whether their is a problem or not Anger: Low level fan boys fight with high level fan boys Bargaining: ArcherofAiur appears and points out that the game can have both (ie MBS AND macro mechanics, current phoenix macro AND muta SC1 micro) Depression: Both sides fight ArcherofAiur insisting that it should only be their way Acceptance: Players realize that their needs to be mechanics for all skill levels I think MBS and Automoning has been replaced pretty well by the new macro-abilities like chrono-boost etc. - but why did Blizzard implement these things? Because the SCBW-players raged like hell because they thought SC2 is gonna be too easy! Same thing now - if the community doesn't react - Blizzard will F up Micro in SC2, so all the ingorant noobs out there - give the ppl caring about SC2 some credit and just respect that there are devoted Fans that want SC2 to be great - they're not stupid SCBW-Fanboys - they just want SC2 to be great! Back2topic: Can SCBW-Style micro truly be replaced like what they did with MBS and automining? I don't think so. Besides, with smartcasting, there is already less micro in SC2 and atm. it's basically the same micro we see in WC3! But that's nothing like SCBW, because it doesn't feel fast-paced, you don't feel like your in control, you deon't feel like you can improve in your micro very well, but thats what SCBW was all about! If I had to describe SCBW in 2 Words, I'd go for fast-paced. And why was it fast-paced? Because of the Micro and that was is the essence of SCBW IMHO - no other RTS felt so fast-paced like SCBW. So why change sth that was the essence of the predecessor - it makes absolutely no sense! | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 14 2010 05:40 EntSC wrote: I think it's worth noting here that I believe that the success of DOTA stems from the fact that you are intensively microing one unit the entire game. Micro = Fun. Macro = satisfying.No doubt this post will prove inflammatory, but I'm totally fed up with people claiming that all of those individuals campaigning for micro tricks in SC2 are bwar fanboys. I'm part of the pseudo-casual crowd. I've had beta access since almost the beginning, and I've only racked up 40 games. This is due to a lack of time, but more recently, also a lack of inclination. I haven't really played any game very much for years, but I was really excited about SC2 because of my memories of bwar. And I've realised since playing SC2 that it was the micro that really made the game interesting. Macro is just as skillful, and the multi-tasking abilities that the pros demonstrate is impressive, but for a casual player it's just not that fun to watch or engage in. This post perfectly highlights how I feel about the game, and it similarly mirrors friends' attitudes that have an even more casual approach to play (those people that haven't picked up a computer game for years, but remember playing SC1 on my computer when we were at Uni). The macro requirements just don't captivate them, whereas micro does. It's exciting, it's interesting, it looks good, and most of all, it's fun. | ||
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MutaDoom
Canada1163 Posts
On May 13 2010 22:24 See.Blue wrote: Dude fantastic work! Someone with a bnet forums account should post this on there so they have a higher chance of seeing it. Amazing stuff (maybe itll be used for the real TL Pro Mod if Blizz passes) Was just reading through all the posts, because that's just what I do on my lunchbreaks, when I spotted this. I sure hope you aren't referring to this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=117987 That was an April Fools joke. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 14 2010 05:40 kickinhead wrote: I think MBS and Automoning has been replaced pretty well by the new macro-abilities like chrono-boost etc. - but why did Blizzard implement these things? Because the SCBW-players raged like hell because they thought SC2 is gonna be too easy! Same thing now - if the community doesn't react - Blizzard will F up Micro in SC2, so all the ingorant noobs out there - give the ppl caring about SC2 some credit and just respect that there are devoted Fans that want SC2 to be great - they're not stupid SCBW-Fanboys - they just want SC2 to be great! And do you notice how they kept MBS and Automining. You can keep phoenix micro as is and still put in high level micro. The game doesnt have to be only a low level game or only a high level game. Notice how few people complain about MBS and Automining now? Ask your self what would have happened if they removed this "noob feature" when the high level community complained? | ||
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nbaker
United States1341 Posts
Great job :D | ||
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BlueApex
63 Posts
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EntSC
47 Posts
On May 14 2010 05:41 Plexa wrote: I think it's worth noting here that I believe that the success of DOTA stems from the fact that you are intensively microing one unit the entire game. Micro = Fun. Macro = satisfying. That's a great point. And clearly both are required to have a sufficient skill ceiling in a high class strategy game, but it's micro that really has the wow factor, particularly for people that are just superficial viewers. I think it was you that posted a match between Bisu and someone else (PvT) where the micro was absolutely godly, and it was just a back and forth match continuously until the T eventually won. I've shown that VOD to a few mates that have never played bwar, and have barely touched a game on a PC or otherwise, and they were still immediately impressed after I explained the basics. Personally, (and I may be taking liberties here), I think a lot of high class players have been quite tolerant of SC2's shortcomings because it's, well... SC2. Blizzard have a great opportunity to create a game that propels e-sports into the west, but I think they have to be very careful that they understand exactly what made SC1 so successful in the first place. I was chatting to Jamie (Midian) about this actually as I was hoping to have a few games with him, but he just said that he'd given up on SC2 after about a hundred or so games because it just didn't feel like SC, and after I'd played a few more, I completely agreed with him. It wasn't that it isn't the same as bwar, it's more that it just seems like a much more polished version of most other RTSs that are already out there, whereas bwar with its brilliant balance of exciting micro and rewarding macro was completely different. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 14 2010 05:45 Archerofaiur wrote: We don't complain because of the existence of the macro mechanics, which was the result of us complaining that making units was too easy. Blizzard devised a novel solution to the problem, which they should be applauded for. And if they had not devised this solution, the game would be that much worse of because of it. Indeed, I don't think the level headed high level community complained about the existence of MBS/Automining, rather that these things made the game easier and there needed to be something put in place to make the game harder. This didn't necessarily mean returning to SBS - but that was one of the options obviously.And do you notice how they kept MBS and Automining. You can keep phoenix micro as is and still put in high level micro. The game doesnt have to be only a low level game or only a high level game. Notice how few people complain about MBS and Automining now? Ask your self what would have happened if they removed this "noob feature" when the high level community complained? | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On May 14 2010 05:45 Archerofaiur wrote: And do you notice how they kept MBS and Automining. You can keep phoenix micro as is and still put in high level micro. The game doesnt have to be only a low level game or only a high level game. Notice how few people complain about MBS and Automining now? Ask your self what would have happened if they removed this "noob feature" when the high level community complained? I'm not sure if Phoenix-micro is really the best solution though. Even simple kiting is more complicated than that, and anything that's simpler than kiting micro is going a bit too far on the easy side to me. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit, and not just spamming right-click. Remember that Blizzard is adding a Challenge mode specifically for this, so I'm quite sure that newbies don't need things to be THAT simple. | ||
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WhistlingMtn
United States190 Posts
On May 14 2010 05:35 Archerofaiur wrote: Ok were going to go through the 5 stages of coping just like we went though with the macro wars. Denial: Players debate whether their is a problem or not Anger: Low level fan boys fight with high level fan boys Bargaining: ArcherofAiur appears and points out that the game can have both (ie MBS AND macro mechanics, current phoenix macro AND muta SC1 micro) Depression: Both sides argue with ArcherofAiur insisting that it should only be their way. Acceptance: Players realize that their needs to be mechanics for all skill levels Just FYI, the 5 stages of grief is an entirely false system that does not exist. It was made up by one psychiatrist who had no idea what she was talking about and made popular because it was catchy. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 14 2010 06:05 Spawkuring wrote: I'm not sure if Phoenix-micro is really the best solution though. Even simple kiting is more complicated than that, and anything that's simpler than kiting micro is going a bit too far on the easy side to me. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit, and not just spamming right-click. Believe it or not its imporant to have easy tasks the new players can learn how to do and have fun with. Phoenix micro is perfect for that. Statements like "A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit," are baseless. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit that has difficult high end micro mechanics. Whats missing in this whole debate is the same thing that was missing in the macro debate. Its the realization that you can have a two tiered system low level mechanics AND high level mechanics. Easy to learn AND hard to master. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On May 14 2010 06:31 Archerofaiur wrote: Believe it or not its imporant to have easy tasks the new players can learn how to do and have fun with. Phoenix micro is perfect for that. Statements like "A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit," are baseless. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit that has difficult high end micro mechanics. Whats missing in this whole debate is the same thing that was missing in the macro debate. Its the realization that you can have a two tiered system low level mechanics AND high level mechanics. Easy to learn AND hard to master. but how you balance that when you distrubute different hard to control Units between the races? besides, it's not like you can't Micro Mutas in SCBW without knowing how to stack them and knowing how to pull off hold-button-micro etc. You don't need to make Units easier to control - the players themselves will control the Unit in the way they want them to! | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 14 2010 06:33 kickinhead wrote: but how you balance that when you distrubute different hard to control Units between the races? Same way you did in SC1. Tell me which was easier? Microing your marines around a lurkers attack or sitting back and watching your lurker attack automatically? Remember balanced does not mean equal. The final races need to be balanced not the individual mechanics. Blizzard has specifically said they like things like "X beats Y unless Y micros better". So in this example, Mutas beat phoenix unless phoenix does attack move micro unless mutas do SC1 micro better... | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On May 14 2010 06:31 Archerofaiur wrote: Believe it or not its imporant to have easy tasks the new players can learn how to do and have fun with. Phoenix micro is perfect for that. Statements like "A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit," are baseless. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit that has difficult high end micro mechanics. Whats missing in this whole debate is the same thing that was missing in the macro debate. Its the realization that you can have a two tiered system low level mechanics AND high level mechanics. Easy to learn AND hard to master. Saying that there should be "tiered micro" is equally baseless though. There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't. The reason why I want things to be equal or greater than kiting is because kiting is very simple micro that even newbies can do. Even newb-friendly games like WoW have players who rarely play games but still know the concepts of kiting and snaring units. Newbies may not be skilled, but they aren't mental retards either. No need to baby them so much. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't. Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto  And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot. | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On May 14 2010 06:40 Archerofaiur wrote: Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot. The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it. Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 14 2010 06:46 Spawkuring wrote: Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot. Can you show me a true copper level player who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly? | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On May 14 2010 06:51 Archerofaiur wrote: Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly? You misunderstand my point. Like I said earlier, there will always be a gap between newb and pro. In fact, this applies to every single game ever made. Hardcores will always be better than casual players no matter what. The thing that separates a good competitive game from a bad competitive game is that the good game has a very large skill gap between the newbie and the pro. A pro should handle a game so much better that it makes anybody in the audience go "WOW!" The question isn't "Can a copper player micro Phoenixes perfectly?" but rather it's "Can a person who has mastered Phoenix micro perform it to such an advanced degree that it can cause an audience to go 'WOW' rather than 'Meh I can do that'." | ||
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