EPTProject Micro - Page 9
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Railxp
Hong Kong1313 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On May 14 2010 03:14 RiOrius wrote: So your goal is to allow units to behave like the new Phoenix... as long as the player clicks enough times? You want to add useless actions to the game? To enlarge the epeen of "pros"? Blizzard knows what you guys are asking for. They know how to implement it. They just would rather have a well-designed game. Furthermore, pros will always find ways to be better at the game than everyone else. If it's easy to micro one unit or control group, they'll micro a dozen. High five! You have no idea what you are talking about! The point here isnt that they are useless clicks- they serve a very important purpose in making the unit function more effectively. It is a concept known as "Micro", you may have heard of it. It makes players who can multi task well win more because it rewards ability. | ||
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Flyingdutchman
Netherlands858 Posts
On May 14 2010 03:14 RiOrius wrote: So your goal is to allow units to behave like the new Phoenix... as long as the player clicks enough times? You want to add useless actions to the game? To enlarge the epeen of "pros"? Blizzard knows what you guys are asking for. They know how to implement it. They just would rather have a well-designed game. Furthermore, pros will always find ways to be better at the game than everyone else. If it's easy to micro one unit or control group, they'll micro a dozen. this! Great work creating this stuff SS, but all the people in here whining about how SC2 isn't like SC1 should quit playing the beta and go back to ICCUP. The game isn't even released yet so just wait and see what happens once the final version is in stores. Then see what you can do within the possibilities of the game engine, that is what sets great players apart from the not so great. Same thing with muta micro in SC1, wasn't discovered until the game was out a long time. Start thinking out of the box people! Some in here make it sound as if platinum players are all really mediocre but they can't own them because they can't outclick them any more. There's probably enough micro stuff in the game people just haven't figured out yet | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
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RiOrius
United States29 Posts
On May 14 2010 03:30 sluggaslamoo wrote: edit: oh god nvm too much caffeine and sleepless nights, good night So I saw what you wrote initially, and I've gotta say: you were kinda right. In tone, at least. I would like a civil discussion, but my post was excessively snarky; I apologize. Let me try again: I have read through this thread and it seems the clear consensus is that your micro is the "right" way to do it, whereas Blizzard's Phoenix change is the "wrong" way to do it. And I cannot understand why so many people believe this. Watching you move the tank around, it looks a lot like how the Phoenix behaves. The tank's delay while firing is extremely small, and he accelerates back to full speed almost instantly. It's very much like he never stopped at all. The outcome is almost the same. The biggest difference, the one that everyone seems to care about, is that you had to spam move and time your hold positions to get him to behave like that, whereas a Phoenix user would only have to move (and probably with less spamming required). Why do you all want there to be more clicks required to accomplish the same task? So that only "pros" can use it effectively? It's the same thing that they used to say about MBS, automine, smartcast. In BW it's really impressive when a pro can spread his Storms out; in SC2, it's pretty easy for anyone to do. But the difficulty wasn't meaningful. Let the computer handle the obvious stuff (when a worker spawns, mine where I tell him to). Let the player do the interesting stuff (set up a series of Force Fields in a wall to cut his army in half; focus the marauders on the stalkers and the marines on the zealots; flank, etc.). And I'll say it again, because I do believe it's true: if it's easy to micro one control group, the pros will learn to micro a dozen. Let them spend their APM on truly interesting things; don't make them waste it on "move-move-move-hold position-move-move-move". | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
On May 14 2010 03:51 Flyingdutchman wrote: this! Great work creating this stuff SS, but all the people in here whining about how SC2 isn't like SC1 should quit playing the beta and go back to ICCUP. The game isn't even released yet so just wait and see what happens once the final version is in stores. Conversely, all the people who say that this is SC2 don't change it don't have to follow this either. It's just a neat trick as of now! | ||
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
 ) and removed functions that would not work on the Battle.net forums. Otherwise, everything is just like SluggaSlamoo posted it:http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24702156682&sid=5010 I doubt it will make a difference, but it certainly won't if it is not posted. | ||
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 14 2010 03:51 Flyingdutchman wrote: Stop being ignorant. Muta micro has ALWAYS existed - just not the glitch when you grouped it with a unit far away. this! Great work creating this stuff SS, but all the people in here whining about how SC2 isn't like SC1 should quit playing the beta and go back to ICCUP. The game isn't even released yet so just wait and see what happens once the final version is in stores. Then see what you can do within the possibilities of the game engine, that is what sets great players apart from the not so great. Same thing with muta micro in SC1, wasn't discovered until the game was out a long time. Start thinking out of the box people! Some in here make it sound as if platinum players are all really mediocre but they can't own them because they can't outclick them any more. There's probably enough micro stuff in the game people just haven't figured out yet Just watch that. That is july's mutalisk micro before the glitch was discovered (and you can tell he's not using the glitch by how his mutalisks are not perfectly clumped). Indeed, when July rose to prominence in 2004 his Mutalisk micro defined him as a player and allowed him to outplay the very best (and indeed, allowed him to become the very best). At the highest level of SC2 we are still lacking these things which allow people to be differentiated - the ONLY thing at the moment which does allow differentiation are Void Ray and charge juggling. But given the limited use of Voids at the moment this isn't really much of a differential. | ||
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Mr.Pyro
Denmark959 Posts
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Jugan
United States1566 Posts
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
On May 14 2010 04:46 MaD.pYrO wrote: Hellion micro wouldn't disturb balance all that much, as Hellions are basically like a Vulture only more expensive and only effective against Zerglings and Zealots. To be honest, the Hellion needs more base damage. Armoured units are too much of a brick wall for Hellions at the moment. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On May 14 2010 03:58 RiOrius wrote: And I'll say it again, because I do believe it's true: if it's easy to micro one control group, the pros will learn to micro a dozen. Let them spend their APM on truly interesting things; don't make them waste it on "move-move-move-hold position-move-move-move". People keep saying things like this over and over again. "Pros now have the APM to spend it on more interesting things", but they never actually say what these "truly interesting things" are. I can pretty much guarantee that any example given will be something that pros can already do in both SC1 and SC2. I can't help but wonder if any of you guys have ever seen SC1 played at the high level. Even with high APM requirements, there are still TONS of interesting strategies, maneuvers, and tactics that make the game fun to play. In fact, it was the APM requirements that helped make them fun in the first place, because you knew that it took a lot of effort to pull it off. Look, the desire to bring back advanced micro isn't about some nostalgic desire to make SC2 a BW clone. The reason why people want micro tricks back is because they are FUN. They are INTERESTING. They are EFFECTIVE. They are SKILLFUL. Everything that SC2 wants in order to be an awesome game exists in these micro tricks. Does Starcraft 2 have interesting micro and strategies? Yes, but it can have even more in addition to that, and that's why we want them to put things like moving shot back in the game. People keep attacking us as delusional fanboys for wanting features in the game just because SC1 had it, but I think it's the opposite. The delusional fanboys are the people who demand that advanced micro tricks shouldn't be in the game simply because SC1 had them. Whereas the people who want micro tricks in SC2 do so because we have seen with our own eyes how much SC1 benefited from them, and we know that SC2 will benefit from them as well because of how similar it plays to SC1. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
Blizzard seems to know this, and for that i'm glad they don't listen to these worried boys complaining about not being able to use their 1000 apms and having to think a bit more than their used to. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On May 14 2010 03:14 RiOrius wrote: So your goal is to allow units to behave like the new Phoenix... as long as the player clicks enough times? You want to add useless actions to the game? To enlarge the epeen of "pros"? Blizzard knows what you guys are asking for. They know how to implement it. They just would rather have a well-designed game. Furthermore, pros will always find ways to be better at the game than everyone else. If it's easy to micro one unit or control group, they'll micro a dozen. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about: 1) We don't want the Units to behave like the Phoenix in Patch 11 - we want micro like in SCBW! 2) Blizzard obviously doesn't know what we want. Best example - Phoenix-changes in Patch 11. 3) pro's will not always find ways to micro better, at some point, you can't micro Units any better, which clearly is the case much sooner with the micro we have in SC2 atm. But it's not like we expect ppl with under 20 Posts to get what SC1 is all about and why SC2 should go in the same directions. It's not like ppl that probably never played SC1 and that haven't been following the scene for years know what makes the game great, but why post stuff like that to make it even more obvious? It would be a shame if ppl like you F up the game just by being ignorant and not knowing what they're talking about. Maybe I'm a bit rough here, but I just think it's totally unmannered to post stuff like that in a thread wiere ppl really think about the game and make stuff happen and show everyone theyre ignoramus himself... @Duelist: Same thing - go play chess but stay away from threads like this - I'm saddened by ppl like u. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 14 2010 05:24 Duelist wrote: Microing is hardly something respected anywhere. You could put a monkey micro units 10x faster than any teenage boy ever could dream of. It's a totally useless skill. When i hear people say some players on SC1 were able to beat the very best because of micro tricks, and talk about that as if it was a good thing, makes me shiver. I'm glad though, because it seems SC2 isn't going on the same direction as SC1, but more strategy based. Maybe we'll see good players actually being more rewarded for being smart, fast thinkers and strategists, than fast clickers. Blizzard seems to know this, and for that i'm glad they don't listen to these worried boys complaining about not being able to use their 1000 apms and having to think a bit more than their used to. A great RTS relies on two things - Strategy and execution. You're basically asking blizzard to remove the latter and hence asking for a turn based strategy game. And I can provide you countless example of strategy and fast thinking defeating the mechanical player. At the highest level of Starcraft, mechanics are par for the course - everyone can micro/macro pretty much the same (with some differences obviously) but those who excel as champions are those who are able to devise game winning strategies - see Fantasy and his vakanic tactics, see UpMagic and his revolutionary mech play vs Zerg, see Bisu are his use of Corsairs and Dark Templar, see Savior and his refinement of the defiler and 3base play. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
On May 14 2010 05:24 Duelist wrote: Microing is hardly something respected anywhere. You could put a monkey or any simple robot micro units 10x faster than any teenage boy ever could dream of. It's a totally useless and uninteresting skill. When i hear people say some players on SC1 were able to beat the very best because of micro tricks, and talk about that as if it was a good thing, makes me shiver. I'm glad though, because it seems SC2 isn't going on the same direction as SC1, but more strategy based. Maybe we'll see good players actually being more rewarded for being smart, fast thinkers and strategists, than fast clickers. Blizzard seems to know this, and for that i'm glad they don't listen to these worried boys complaining about not being able to use their 1000 apms and having to think a bit more than their used to. Get educated, dude. Strategy is omnipresent regardless of the design. It was in 1, it will be in 2. Come on. Players have always been rewarded for strategic play and will continue to be. Furthermore, micro is simply strategy rapidly executed in a dynamic environment. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On May 14 2010 05:24 Duelist wrote: Microing is hardly something respected anywhere. You could put a monkey or any simple robot or AI micro units 10x faster than any teenage boy ever could dream of. It's a totally useless and uninteresting skill. When i hear people say some players on SC1 were able to beat the very best because of micro tricks, and talk about that as if it was a good thing, makes me shiver. I'm glad though, because it seems SC2 isn't going on the same direction as SC1, but more strategy based. Maybe we'll see good players actually being more rewarded for being smart, fast thinkers and strategists, than robot clickers. Blizzard seems to know this, and for that i'm glad they don't listen to these worried boys complaining about not being able to use their 1000 apms and having to think a bit more than their used to. Nice showing that you have no clue of SCBW or what makes a great RTS-game... It's not like SCBW is being played for 10 years and has the biggest pro-gaming-scene because it's so bad - right?.... noob. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
Denial: Players debate whether their is a problem or not Anger: Low level fan boys fight with high level fan boys Bargaining: ArcherofAiur appears and points out that the game can have both (ie MBS AND macro mechanics, current phoenix macro AND muta SC1 micro) Depression: Both sides argue with ArcherofAiur insisting that it should only be their way. Acceptance: Players realize that their needs to be mechanics for all skill levels | ||
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