On May 14 2010 06:51 Archerofaiur wrote: Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
You misunderstand my point.
Like I said earlier, there will always be a gap between newb and pro. In fact, this applies to every single game ever made. Hardcores will always be better than casual players no matter what. The thing that separates a good competitive game from a bad competitive game is that the good game has a very large skill gap between the newbie and the pro. A pro should handle a game so much better that it makes anybody in the audience go "WOW!"
The question isn't "Can a copper player micro Phoenixes perfectly?" but rather it's "Can a person who has mastered Phoenix micro perform it to such an advanced degree that it can cause an audience to go 'WOW' rather than 'Meh I can do that'."
You said phoenix micro was easy to master. Im asking you to back that point up
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
umm, you click move and the phoenix does everything for you? How is that even possible not to master. The only thing that changes as players get better is the number of move commands, not damage or anything else.
I'm sorry, but your noob friendly idea is complete shit. The units should be useful and good without micro, but situationally better with micro that is engaging, takes practice, and requires multi tasking. SC2 doesnt need training wheel micro to make new players feel better about themselves. It needs units that work so that a low level player can succeed without micro, then begin to add more and more micro in as they improve. No way in hell blizz should deliberately make some units easier to micro just because they can. It isnt micro if it doesnt call your attention away from something else. What you want is automation, and automation is not good for a game meant to be played at a high level.
If you really want noob starcraft 2 so much, why not just make it so that the novice maps all have automated moving shots to make new players feel all warm and fuzzy inside as they play. Worrying about noobs has no place in making decisions that effect competitive and serious gamers. Its like making a shooting game that aims and shoots for you, all you have to do is move and select guns.
On May 14 2010 06:51 Archerofaiur wrote: Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
You misunderstand my point.
Like I said earlier, there will always be a gap between newb and pro. In fact, this applies to every single game ever made. Hardcores will always be better than casual players no matter what. The thing that separates a good competitive game from a bad competitive game is that the good game has a very large skill gap between the newbie and the pro. A pro should handle a game so much better that it makes anybody in the audience go "WOW!"
The question isn't "Can a copper player micro Phoenixes perfectly?" but rather it's "Can a person who has mastered Phoenix micro perform it to such an advanced degree that it can cause an audience to go 'WOW' rather than 'Meh I can do that'."
this.
look at super smash bros. the game would never gotten played in any competive match ever if it wasnt for the super hard to do,effective and cool lookin glitches evrywhere.
a high skill cap lets people go "omgawd did you see that?".
On May 14 2010 06:05 Spawkuring wrote: I'm not sure if Phoenix-micro is really the best solution though. Even simple kiting is more complicated than that, and anything that's simpler than kiting micro is going a bit too far on the easy side to me. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit, and not just spamming right-click.
Believe it or not its imporant to have easy tasks the new players can learn how to do and have fun with. Phoenix micro is perfect for that. Statements like "A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit," are baseless. A player should be pressing at least two buttons to micro a unit that has difficult high end micro mechanics.
Whats missing in this whole debate is the same thing that was missing in the macro debate. Its the realization that you can have a two tiered system
low level mechanics AND high level mechanics. Easy to learn AND hard to master.
but how you balance that when you distrubute different hard to control Units between the races?
Same way you did in SC1. Tell me which was easier? Microing your marines around a lurkers attack or sitting back and watching your lurker attack automatically?
Remember balanced does not mean equal. The final races need to be balanced not the individual mechanics. Blizzard has specifically said they like things like "X beats Y unless Y micros better".
So in this example, Mutas beat phoenix unless phoenix does attack move micro unless mutas do SC1 micro better...
Ah, now I finally get what you mean! ^^'
But I think the Air-Units all need the attack-move-micro, there will still be lots of ground-units that have different skill-level-demands I guess.... It's just that I'd be dissappointed as a Protoss-player If the Phoenix wouldn't be such an awesome to control unit!
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
umm, you click move and the phoenix does everything for you? How is that even possible not to master. The only thing that changes as players get better is the number of move commands, not damage or anything else.
I'm sorry, but your noob friendly idea is complete shit. The units should be useful and good without micro, but situationally better with micro that is engaging, takes practice, and requires multi tasking. SC2 doesnt need training wheel micro to make new players feel better about themselves. It needs units that work so that a low level player can succeed without micro, then begin to add more and more micro in as they improve. No way in hell blizz should deliberately make some units easier to micro just because they can. It isnt micro if it doesnt call your attention away from something else. What you want is automation, and automation is not good for a game meant to be played at a high level.
If you really want noob starcraft 2 so much, why not just make it so that the novice maps all have automated moving shots to make new players feel all warm and fuzzy inside as they play. Worrying about noobs has no place in making decisions that effect competitive and serious gamers. Its like making a shooting game that aims and shoots for you, all you have to do is move and select guns.
Wow your like saying the exact same things that we heard at the begining of the MBS wars. But thats fine stick to your guns. lol weve seen your kind before :p
Anyway since none of you want to post any evidence how about i post some for you. Look at this example of phoenix micro which is obviously "easy to master"
On May 14 2010 06:51 Archerofaiur wrote: Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
You misunderstand my point.
Like I said earlier, there will always be a gap between newb and pro. In fact, this applies to every single game ever made. Hardcores will always be better than casual players no matter what. The thing that separates a good competitive game from a bad competitive game is that the good game has a very large skill gap between the newbie and the pro. A pro should handle a game so much better that it makes anybody in the audience go "WOW!"
The question isn't "Can a copper player micro Phoenixes perfectly?" but rather it's "Can a person who has mastered Phoenix micro perform it to such an advanced degree that it can cause an audience to go 'WOW' rather than 'Meh I can do that'."
You said phoenix micro was easy to master. Im asking you to back that point up
Kinda hard to do that considering that most newbs haven't gotten their hands on the game yet and are too busy massing Void Rays
Even so, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that there isn't much depth to a unit that is played on maximum efficiency by spamming right-click. Pros will do it better of course, but the question is "how much better", and I'm skeptical that the answer to that question is "very much".
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
umm, you click move and the phoenix does everything for you? How is that even possible not to master. The only thing that changes as players get better is the number of move commands, not damage or anything else.
I'm sorry, but your noob friendly idea is complete shit. The units should be useful and good without micro, but situationally better with micro that is engaging, takes practice, and requires multi tasking. SC2 doesnt need training wheel micro to make new players feel better about themselves. It needs units that work so that a low level player can succeed without micro, then begin to add more and more micro in as they improve. No way in hell blizz should deliberately make some units easier to micro just because they can. It isnt micro if it doesnt call your attention away from something else. What you want is automation, and automation is not good for a game meant to be played at a high level.
If you really want noob starcraft 2 so much, why not just make it so that the novice maps all have automated moving shots to make new players feel all warm and fuzzy inside as they play. Worrying about noobs has no place in making decisions that effect competitive and serious gamers. Its like making a shooting game that aims and shoots for you, all you have to do is move and select guns.
Wow your like saying the exact same things that we heard at the begining of the MBS wars. But thats fine stick to your guns. lol weve seen your kind before :p
Anyway since none of you want to post any evidence how about i post some for you. Look at this example of phoenix micro which is obviously "easy to master"
This Vid is a bad example, cuz all Toss had to do is to fly away from the Mutas - there is no need to fly around them n' stuff, because mutas are the Units that will engage you, not the other way round. You can just sit there and w8 in the middle of the Map and if the Mutas try to attack anything from you, catch them on the way over and just fly away from them and kill them in the process.
It's like saying: look how good zergling-micro is by wildly clicking and running in circles around another Unit - it's just silly. ^^'
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
umm, you click move and the phoenix does everything for you? How is that even possible not to master. The only thing that changes as players get better is the number of move commands, not damage or anything else.
I'm sorry, but your noob friendly idea is complete shit. The units should be useful and good without micro, but situationally better with micro that is engaging, takes practice, and requires multi tasking. SC2 doesnt need training wheel micro to make new players feel better about themselves. It needs units that work so that a low level player can succeed without micro, then begin to add more and more micro in as they improve. No way in hell blizz should deliberately make some units easier to micro just because they can. It isnt micro if it doesnt call your attention away from something else. What you want is automation, and automation is not good for a game meant to be played at a high level.
If you really want noob starcraft 2 so much, why not just make it so that the novice maps all have automated moving shots to make new players feel all warm and fuzzy inside as they play. Worrying about noobs has no place in making decisions that effect competitive and serious gamers. Its like making a shooting game that aims and shoots for you, all you have to do is move and select guns.
Wow your like saying the exact same things that we heard at the begining of the MBS wars. But thats fine stick to your guns. lol weve seen your kind before :p
Anyway since none of you want to post any evidence how about i post some for you. Look at this example of phoenix micro which is obviously "easy to master"
This Vid is a bad example, cuz all Toss had to do is to fly away from the Mutas - there is no need to fly around them n' stuff, because mutas are the Units that will engage you, not the other way round. You can just sit there and w8 in the middle of the Map and if the Mutas try to attack anything from you, catch them on the way over and just fly away from them and kill them in the process.
It's like saying: look how good zergling-micro is by wildly clicking and running in circles around another Unit - it's just silly. ^^'
Im waiting for your counter evidence showing a low level player who has mastered this.
People keep misunderstanding the point of micro, especially making it relative apm-intensive. Yes, tank micro is pretty easy to do. When you're just controlling a tank, move-hold-move-hold-move is very simple and won't take long to master. However, how long can you keep microing your tank against zealots/immortals while keeping up with everything else going on? Are you still spending money? Are you calling down mules? Are you moving the rest of your army into position? Now, I suck with Terran, but whenever I try to reaper harass against a competent player, I can do it effectively because it's not very hard. But soon my minerals are passing a thousand and I've done more damage to myself than I have to my opponent.
The skill that is so vital in RTSs is multitasking. The ability to keep multiple strategies in their head at the same time while microing their units, producing more units, keeping an eye on the minimap, using macro mechanics efficiently, etc are what separates the good people from the great. You should be able to come up with novel strategies, but then you should have to have the mechanics to actually implement it. A lot of this multitasking requires high APM, but high APM is not the goal of the game. It is only a means to the end of multitasking every small detail of your army so that you get the most out of every single thing.
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
umm, you click move and the phoenix does everything for you? How is that even possible not to master. The only thing that changes as players get better is the number of move commands, not damage or anything else.
I'm sorry, but your noob friendly idea is complete shit. The units should be useful and good without micro, but situationally better with micro that is engaging, takes practice, and requires multi tasking. SC2 doesnt need training wheel micro to make new players feel better about themselves. It needs units that work so that a low level player can succeed without micro, then begin to add more and more micro in as they improve. No way in hell blizz should deliberately make some units easier to micro just because they can. It isnt micro if it doesnt call your attention away from something else. What you want is automation, and automation is not good for a game meant to be played at a high level.
If you really want noob starcraft 2 so much, why not just make it so that the novice maps all have automated moving shots to make new players feel all warm and fuzzy inside as they play. Worrying about noobs has no place in making decisions that effect competitive and serious gamers. Its like making a shooting game that aims and shoots for you, all you have to do is move and select guns.
Wow your like saying the exact same things that we heard at the begining of the MBS wars. But thats fine stick to your guns. lol weve seen your kind before :p
Anyway since none of you want to post any evidence how about i post some for you. Look at this example of phoenix micro which is obviously "easy to master"
This Vid is a bad example, cuz all Toss had to do is to fly away from the Mutas - there is no need to fly around them n' stuff, because mutas are the Units that will engage you, not the other way round. You can just sit there and w8 in the middle of the Map and if the Mutas try to attack anything from you, catch them on the way over and just fly away from them and kill them in the process.
It's like saying: look how good zergling-micro is by wildly clicking and running in circles around another Unit - it's just silly. ^^'
Im waiting for your counter evidence showing a low level player who has mastered this.
But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
You don't have to fly around the Mutas like crazy, you just have to keep your distance! Besides, it's not only about Muta VS Phoenix-Micro, it's about Micro against all Units.
Though I get you opinion about Phoenix-Micro doesn't have to be like Muta-Micro, mainly because Mutas are also able to attack ground...
But what would you recommend doing with the Vikings then?
On May 14 2010 06:38 Spawkuring wrote: There's no real reason why some units have to be super easy and others don't.
Yes there is! "Easy to learn, hard to master" Its their fricking motto
And before you say every noob can micro phoenix's perfectly, no they cannot.
The idea behind "easy to learn, hard to master" is that it's easy for a newbie to use, but there's an extreme amount of depth for a person willing to dig deeply into it.
Making phoenix attack on movement contradicts this because it's "Easy to learn, easy to master". Yes, there will always be a gap between noob and pro, but even you can't deny that the gap is much smaller than if Blizzard had implemented the BW moving shot.
Can you show me a true copper level who has mastered phoenix micro perfectly?
umm, you click move and the phoenix does everything for you? How is that even possible not to master. The only thing that changes as players get better is the number of move commands, not damage or anything else.
I'm sorry, but your noob friendly idea is complete shit. The units should be useful and good without micro, but situationally better with micro that is engaging, takes practice, and requires multi tasking. SC2 doesnt need training wheel micro to make new players feel better about themselves. It needs units that work so that a low level player can succeed without micro, then begin to add more and more micro in as they improve. No way in hell blizz should deliberately make some units easier to micro just because they can. It isnt micro if it doesnt call your attention away from something else. What you want is automation, and automation is not good for a game meant to be played at a high level.
If you really want noob starcraft 2 so much, why not just make it so that the novice maps all have automated moving shots to make new players feel all warm and fuzzy inside as they play. Worrying about noobs has no place in making decisions that effect competitive and serious gamers. Its like making a shooting game that aims and shoots for you, all you have to do is move and select guns.
Wow your like saying the exact same things that we heard at the begining of the MBS wars. But thats fine stick to your guns. lol weve seen your kind before :p
Anyway since none of you want to post any evidence how about i post some for you. Look at this example of phoenix micro which is obviously "easy to master"
This Vid is a bad example, cuz all Toss had to do is to fly away from the Mutas - there is no need to fly around them n' stuff, because mutas are the Units that will engage you, not the other way round. You can just sit there and w8 in the middle of the Map and if the Mutas try to attack anything from you, catch them on the way over and just fly away from them and kill them in the process.
It's like saying: look how good zergling-micro is by wildly clicking and running in circles around another Unit - it's just silly. ^^'
Why do mutalisks have to engage the phoenixes? A lot of time the mutalisks will be attacking a vulnerable position where the phoenixes will have to come defend. If the phoenixes just fly away, the mutalisks can go back to attacking whatever is vulnerable. The micro comes from mutalisks staying near a vulnerable place so that phoenixes cannot just fly around the map. Therefore, to keep from getting hit, they will have to dance in the 1-range window (3-4] where phoenixes can do damage but receive none. In response, the mutalisks will try to outmaneuver the phoenixes so that they enter their range of attack. Units cannot be analyzed in a vacuum.
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
Thanks
Personally I really like the different types of micro that could be put into Starcraft 2. Not every unit should have muta micro just like not every unit should have maurader micro.
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
Thanks
Personally I really like the different types of micro that could be put into Starcraft 2. Not every unit should have muta micro just like not every unit should have maurader micro.
This leaves the question open what to do with Units like Viking or Banshee.
Or has anyone ever thought about how the Carrier-Micro works in SC2? Maybe if you tweak sth there, they can actually be useful when microed correctly. Plz Sluggaslamoo - work your awesome magic on the carrier!
Oh my god I wish this was the real game. Good work.
I'm so tired of people being like "THIS ISNT BW THIS IS SC2 ITS A DIFFERENT GAME" who cares.. if SC2 was like this it would be so much better of a game than it is now. Of course there'd be some things that needed tweaking I'm sure, as there are probably some units that would be way too powerful with no cooldown, but still. If SC2 were more like this and less like it is now in terms of attack cooldowns.. holy crap I'd love it so much more.
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
Thanks
Personally I really like the different types of micro that could be put into Starcraft 2. Not every unit should have muta micro just like not every unit should have maurader micro.
Brings us to another issue. Current phoenix micro really would need LAN latency to work good. And with LAN latency i mean real LAN, a few milliseconds worth of delay.
100+ ms is enough to make it hard to maintain the proper distance. Battle.net being random, connections being unstable and prone to packet losses just adds to the problem.
Another Blizzard compromise. In the name of esports? I think not.
On May 14 2010 05:24 Duelist wrote: Microing is hardly something respected anywhere. You could put a monkey or any simple robot or AI micro units 10x faster than any teenage boy ever could dream of. It's a totally useless and uninteresting skill. When i hear people say some players on SC1 were able to beat the very best because of micro tricks, and talk about that as if it was a good thing, makes me shiver. I'm glad though, because it seems SC2 isn't going on the same direction as SC1, but more strategy based. Maybe we'll see good players actually being more rewarded for being smart, fast thinkers and strategists, than robot clickers.
Blizzard seems to know this, and for that i'm glad they don't listen to these worried boys complaining about not being able to use their 1000 apms and having to think a bit more than their used to.
this is a totally pro-troll on star2 forums i wonder whats your team on ShinHan Bank Trolleague
show yourself, we all know you are a korean protrollgamer
On May 14 2010 07:23 kickinhead wrote: But it's mastering sth that isn't useful in the game.
Of course its useful. By keeping your phoenix's the correct distance they can kill mutalisks. How is that not useful?
Yes, but it's not like you have to fly around them the way the person in the VoD did. But I guess there is still some Micro with the Phoenix now, so I think your right on this one.
Consider that Phoenixes have a much faster movement speed, and only 1 more range. Then, show me a video of you perfectly microing Phoenixes to not get hit.
EPT
