On May 14 2010 15:57 sluggaslamoo wrote: In terms of balance does anyone think that viking micro would solve the problem of broodlords and mass void rays?
You now don't have to mass vikings/marines in order to beat void rays, you can beat like 20 of them with just 3 if you focus all your attention on it, so you can quickly bring them out and if you work really hard at it your still in the game, instead of just instant GG.
Also because of the vikings range, mutas/hydras/corruptors will have to work a lot harder in order to defend broodlords.
Not saying blizzard should implement it, but more just out of curiousity.
I think Viking-Micro could be a tricky one, because it could just end up being incredibly powerful because of the long range of the Vikings, but I guess that's how it should be, cuz Vikings are supposed to be good Anti-Air, right?
Against Voidrays, Vikings are already very good and you can already defend against much more Voidrays with Vikings sniping VR's and backing up to the Marines if the VR's try to engage and because if the high range, Vikings can already snipe VR's without taking any hits - so better micro wouldn't make it too IMBA I guess.
I think it's definitely worth a try to mess around with Viking-Micro, basically because Vikings VS Vikings are very often seen in TvT and with proper Micro, it would just be much more fun to play.
On May 14 2010 15:57 sluggaslamoo wrote: In terms of balance does anyone think that viking micro would solve the problem of broodlords and mass void rays?
You now don't have to mass vikings/marines in order to beat void rays, you can beat like 20 of them with just 3 if you focus all your attention on it, so you can quickly bring them out and if you work really hard at it your still in the game, instead of just instant GG.
Also because of the vikings range, mutas/hydras/corruptors will have to work a lot harder in order to defend broodlords.
Not saying blizzard should implement it, but more just out of curiousity.
I think they'd probably have to nerf the viking's range if these changes were to be implemented.
In my opinion, the only reason that the viking and the banshee have their ridiculous range in the first place is because they're such unresponsive units. With no moving shot they need massive range to compensate.
I definitely think vikings would be a much better counter to void rays (even when unsupported by marines). But to make it balanced I'd lower their range and boost their speed (so they're slightly faster than void rays). It would be good for balance if vikings would have to get in range of the void rays (even if only for a short period of time), so void rays actually stood a chance against mismicroed vikings.
The only reason vikings are a "counter" to broodlords right now is because they have such ridiculous range. It's not like you put much effort into microing them vs broodlords, other than just keeping them out of range of the opponent's army. That's basically your only concern. Keep the vikings out of range for his anti air, and keep them in proximity of your main army (this is exactly how the valkyrie was used in BW, because it didn't have moving shot and because it behaved so stupidly).
Wraiths, on the other hand, are a really common transition counter against fast guardians nowadays in BW. And I think it's beautiful to watch someone like Flash constantly look for openings, constantly putting pressure, without being restricted to keeping his air units close to his main army at all times. It's alot more entertaining to watch. Because the zerg player has to keep 100% focus the whole time, the wraiths can appear out of any angle at any time and instantly pick off 1 guardian with 2 kiting shots. It's alot more entertaining and alot more suspenseful to watch than SC2-micro, in my opinion. Constant action!
As for banshees, I don't think they're fitting for a game like Starcraft. There shouldn't be any air unit that can 2-shot workers in a game like Starcraft. If my opponent rushes me with a lone air unit, I want micro to actually matter. You should be able to save your drones/probes with micro. And again: the reason I think they're designed the way they're designed (terrible terrible damage), is because of the game mechanics limiting them and limiting micro in general.
Probably why they gave Brood Lords ridiculous hp as well (compare it to guardians hp). Because vikings had ridiculous range. It's a slippery slope once you start balancing a game with inherent restricted freedom.
^ The viking was done ages ago actually as well as the banshee , but it takes for ever to upload so i didn't bother. Managed to take out 15 void rays with just 3 vikings, although I increased its speed. Without the speed increase it made no difference, you died as soon as you tried to move away.
Just imagine the v0.1 phoenix, but with vikings, its basically the same.
I really like the tank vids! I really hope Blizzard will acknowledge these and try to implement some into the game. Some I don't think should be changed, like the way air stacks currently, maybe change how they attack to make it more smooth for moving micro, but the stacking would be a little much I believe. Still, there are some great concepts here very much reminiscent of BW.
^ I'm not sure what you mean by this. Although I'm no guru on carrier micro, I thought that with the interceptor launch upgrade I had reasonably good success with them against a terran bio ball.
Please elaborate, I'm happy to try and get it working if you can justify it. I don't know much about carrier micro so yeah
I just tried this and its fun but its basically the same type of micro for every unit.. a-move click back and click back-stop-click back-stop.. dont need patrol or hold position.. Not bad but at least current phoenix is different than every other unit and that is a good thing.. Some units could use this.. Would be great to have more responsive units..
Carrier should be a bit faster and interceptors should not return to carrier when it turns back..
^ Ah i see. Thanks for the advice, ill look into it.
Yep one of the things I am looking into right now is variance of micro. But at the moment in the early stages, I think we're on the right track. I have to cover all the units first and see what I can do with them on a basic level, starting with BW-esque responsiveness, and then narrowing it down. And then I can get into the nitty gritty and see what other neat things the data-editor has to offer. Right now I'm happy I got tank auto-aim to work, it was one of the weirdest adjustments seeing as its actually "attack while moving", but then not allowing the tank to attack, but it was a break that led to more possibilities.
Even if we couldn't go further than how much its progressed to at the moment. I think its adequate enough for what we want. I can't realistically see perfect BW micro being implemented, and frankly I don't really care that much haha.
Also hold-position seems to work better for me, although it maybe because of the key's position on the keyboard. The other thing with hold-position is that, because it has to be stopped to shoot, it will stop the unit from trying to move and engage and screw up the timing.
Patrol helps me see the path where they are going, but your right, they work the same.
My v0.2 Phoenix, which I've had to upload 3 times grrr -_-, is the same as the current, no stack, but you have to use hold-position to shoot, instead of just moving. So they will face their enemies but won't shoot if you just tell them to move, I consider move different to attack
On May 15 2010 03:20 sluggaslamoo wrote: ^ Ah i see. Thanks for the advice, ill look into it.
Yep one of the things I am looking into right now is variance of micro. But at the moment in the early stages, I think we're on the right track. I have to cover all the units first and see what I can do with them on a basic level, starting with BW-esque responsiveness, and then narrowing it down. And then I can get into the nitty gritty and see what other neat things the data-editor has to offer.
Also hold-position seems to work better for me, although it maybe because of the key's position on the keyboard. The other thing with hold-position is that, because it has to be stopped to shoot, it will stop the unit from trying to move and engage and screw up the timing.
Patrol helps me see the path where they are going, but your right, they work the same.
My v0.2 Phoenix, which I've had to upload 3 times grrr -_-, is the same as the current, no stack, but you have to use hold-position to shoot, instead of just moving. So they will face their enemies but won't shoot if you just tell them to move, I consider move different to attack
Slug why not focus on other units that actually need micro variance instead of proposing changes to one of the only units that actually already does have unique micro variance?
Phoenix micro is currently unique, interesting, challenging and fits with the units lore and role. Lets fix Hellion, tanks, mutalisk, carrier etc... before messing with one of the few units that actually has good micro.
Hehe I'm focusing on a few units at once, stopping for a while, working on some other unit, and then going back to the old one. But I thought it would be nice to see what sort of things I could do to the phoenix. Some people wanted to see the phoenix change they expected before patch 11, which is why I went ahead and did it to see what it would be like.
In all seriousness, I am not making these modifications to prove that one method is better than the other. Some people are getting the impression that I think my version of the phoenix is better than the current version, that's wrong, I think either have their good and bad points. I just want to explore different possibilities.
If you really want changes to certain units done immediately, the map is there for you to download and modify. Right now I just wanna have fun and make my own changes. I'm happy to do requests, but I don't like being told what I should and shouldn't do. That's just mean
Thats actually not bad. I still think their needs to be different degrees of microness (attack automatically, attack when hitting hold etc..) But yah good work.
Now where is that Flying Nexus micro?
Also for the Mothership can I suggest a micro mechanic where the Mothership's three "turrets" shoot on seperate cooldowns so if you have it in the middle of a battle you can fire from all three sides by continually targeting units on alternating sides.
Its worth noting that the Zealot is faster than the tank so if there were 2 or 3 it would catch up. I couldn't kill the immortal with the tank either, but it felt nice to have some control of the tank out of siege mode.
The hellion would die to speedlings just as easily as it does now, so I'm not sure this is that big a change to the hellion. While I don't mind it, I'm not sure it affects the match up significantly at all.
I had trouble with the phoenix, but I did like the banshees and the vikings. Both units felt like they acted correctly as missiles became fire and forget. Very nice.
Muta's were fun, but you need to place a turret and some marines to test it properly. Once you do that you learn 2 things: A) it feels good to have control over the muta (as opposed to issuing suggetions) and B) Turrets are powerful
On May 15 2010 03:45 Archerofaiur wrote: Now where is that Flying Nexus micro?
I think this might answer your question. Ahhhh the memories. Floating nexus that could shoot mothership lasers would be pretty awesome though.
As for the mothership, that was actually very similar to one of the ideas i had but I think it will be a bit too complicated. Ill have a look anyhow and see what I can do.
See look at that! You cant even micro with it effectively.
Are you joking me? Firstly nexus micro would be so ridiculously overpowered its not even funny. With unlimited nexus selection (and, I might add, unlimited nexus' as they take up negative food) this would be completely gamebreaking for T and Z.
I was wondering when somebody would do this just to see how it works in practice.
As for Blizzard... I'm sure that they could do this same thing if they wanted to. All it involves is messing around with the pitch numbers and such, all already in the editor.
Blizzard created the singleplayer campaign with the map editor (minus the on-board Hyperion stuff, obv) It's obvious they just didn't wanna take this direction.
EPT
, but it takes for ever to upload so i didn't bother. Managed to take out 15 void rays with just 3 vikings, although I increased its speed. Without the speed increase it made no difference, you died as soon as you tried to move away.
![[image loading]](http://www.starcraftzone.com/images/info/units/mothership-dark.jpg)
