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On May 30 2011 03:03 Goibon wrote:
Whole thing is pointless. He's a niche entertainer and his fanbase approve of his conduct. He's a product of the internet, and his world view can only exist on the internet. Taking this beyond that is just a waste of time.
That's a good point.
If he had taken it beyond the internet to any large extent, he would probably have been offered some "perspective" by now, by people who have a clue about what these words actually mean in their common usage (and not just "historically", as Destiny erroneously kept harking back to).
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I suppose the funny thing would be, if context is all that matters, then word choice is completely meaningless. Just call people a random verb and a random noun. The english language is vast, filled with tens of thousands of words and you can even make up more if you want.
Everybody does, or should, understand that when people use certain words they don't always mean it maliciously or to degrade an entire group of people. Everybody here does (or should) understand that. However, if you're smart enough to make that argument you have to be smart enough to realize that you can't attempt to control the emotions of everybody else out there.
Anybody who has had a girlfriend (or boyfriend) and been in an argument over something meaningless should be well aware that logical arguments don't matter if there's an emotional attachment to whatever is being discussed. Just essentially telling people to (as another poster put it) move on, simply doesn't work. At that point, take the different path and amend your speech for the greater good. I would love if everybody could live under the mantra of, "sticks and stones", but they don't.
Ultimately, you can decide what words you want to use, regardless of context. However, you have to be ready to accept that it might be taken incorrectly and be ok with the consequences.
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If you don't like his attitude towards certain taboo words, don't watch his stream. He clearly stated that he strongly believes in changing people's perception of those words, and that's a part of who he is that he doesn't intend on changing, at least on his stream.
Maybe when he gets in the limelight more he'll understand that attitude is not worth it. People change, but Destiny is one stubborn *bleep* so it'll take a lot for him to change.
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On May 30 2011 03:07 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 03:03 DISHU wrote:
he seemed so insensitive and as a black person i wont wacth his stream agian either i used to like his stream as well to bad.
if a person doesnt want to be called a name what rigth do you have unless your arrogant . I don't want people who get offended by me using a word out of context watching my stream.
I'd love you to answer this Destiny, i have some sympathy to your viewpoint but i think it doesn't take account of the context in a lot of these cases.
IE why is it that amongst a community which is primarily young, straight males the reflex insult of choices is a homosexual slur?
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Kind of sad only Incontrol was really against Destiny's remarks. He didn't even take a really strong stance against them though. Not only can these words be offensive to a very few people, but it turns people like me off from the show because it's completely unprofessional and you guys should already have a stance against that behavior.
Destiny: get a clue
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I posted a few pages ago when this discussion started here, but here are more of my thoughts nobody will probably read.
I watch Destiny's stream occasionally. It's not like every other sentence he's throwing out there is 'I RAPED THAT NIGGER FAGGOT'... I don't really have a problem with that language when it's used sparingly, as in, not to Xbox live levels.
Overall I wish we as a culture could move past the need to use 'rape' as a description for anything but one of the most horrible acts that can happen to a person, but that's a bit too pie in the sky and I know it.
It's an interesting discussion, as I posted a few pages ago my best friend was raped, and ever since that event that word is just ugly to me. However, I'm not black or gay, and I don't really know that many black or gay people, so I don't feel the same level of revulsion to that kind of hate speech.
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I wanted to watch a Starcraft 2 show, but ended up hearing a discussion about philology. That conversation was innapropriate for the show, and the panelists and callers were unqualified to dicsuss to topic at hand. I just wanted to hear people better than me at Starcraft 2 talk about Starcraft 2.
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On May 30 2011 03:03 DISHU wrote:
he seemed so insensitive and as a black person i wont wacth his stream agian either i used to like his stream as well to bad.
if a person doesnt want to be called a name what rigth do you have unless your arrogant .
While I agree with you, you have to understand that Destiny is rather immature. I am not defending his view point, but he doesn't sound like someone who has encountered this issue throughout his life. I am willing to bet that he doesn't frequent many African-American communities (having 1 or 2 black friends doesn't count). His point is offensive, but he's not offensive in his own eyes. I think it's just a lack of knowledge/understanding.
He thinks its valid to say "why are you assuming I mean it offensively." While other people are saying "why do you have to say the words that offend my culture." Destiny thinks that blacks will "mature" and eventually not get offended, but I think that is the wrong approach. But again I think this is a maturity issue on Destiny's part. I honestly don't think he means ill will. Keep watching his stream if you like it. You can disagree with someone's view point on language and still enjoy their content
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If a word bothers you, dont watch that stream. If you dont want to let your kid hear that word, dont let them watch that stream. There are lots of alternatives. It is on you to chose which you take, not force a caster to change their language simply because you find it objectionable.
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On May 30 2011 03:07 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 03:03 DISHU wrote:
he seemed so insensitive and as a black person i wont wacth his stream agian either i used to like his stream as well to bad.
if a person doesnt want to be called a name what rigth do you have unless your arrogant . I don't want people who get offended by me using a word out of context watching my stream.
There is no acceptable context to use the "n-word" as a white man.
DjWheat tried to make the point of listening to music and hearing things that are considered offensive, however, if you think about who is saying the "n-word" in songs they're all black. Imagine the shitstorm that would happen if Eminem tried to release a song saying it.
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Hello,
I tuned in to the end of this show to hear destiny try and defend his use of those words. I completely lost respect for him. His justifications for using the words were pathetic.
People unknowingly make offensive comments all the time.. better to apologize and move on rather than try to justify it the way destiny tried to
Isn't it possible to express feelings and provide shock value on his stream without using words like those ? Surely an intelligent and creative person can create entertainment without using words that really do offend ALOT of people.. the Starcraft community would be better off without that element..
just one fan's opinion
mad respect to InControl for calling out this conversation
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Why the shitstorm? Goddamn, Destiny gets viewers by streaming and talking over it. If you have a problem with either his stream or what he's saying you can just.. not watch his stream. There is CLEARLY a fanbase that don't give a shit and find entertainment in his stream.
There's even a filter thing going on on TL so you can see what streams have bad language now, really, where's the issue? If you get offended by X and Y just avoid Z. Destiny draws the line at one place, a lot of people in this thread draws the line elsewhere. Like everything else in the world.
God, visiting TL sometimes makes it feel like I'm the only person in the world who enjoys watching South Park.
I'd like to state that I don't necessarily condone by his use of words though. But shit if a show had shit that would offend me (and there are shows out there, believe me) I simply visit another show. Not sure why I would try to make them change to appeal to me.
Finally, this was a terrible WoC.
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Incontrol is in a different position professionally than Destiny, his opinion on the issue was valid, but he came off as a giant hypocrite.
He's been going downhill ever since his post on TL about the re-streaming GSL incident,he's too concerned about maintaining his new public persona and this most recent episode of WOC is the result of that train wreck.
I've lost all respect for him & I'm very thankful he's leaving SOTG.
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On May 30 2011 03:06 Rasun wrote:
I knew i's find a shitstorm here, look its a super controversial issue that has no right answer. Geoff and Steven have fundamentally different views about it that can not be resolved.
Any argumentation that happens is pointless and will go on and on forever with each side rehashing the same ideas over and over.
The "problem" is that Geoff and Steven don't have a different view. Geoff is often very offensive in all the shows his in. He just defend the political correct side because it serve his business. Which is way more offensive than offensive words, it's offensive to people's intelligence.
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I am going to assume most of the readers/posters here are not black, and are not a victim (or know a victim) of rape.
To those that are neither, and still defend Destiny's argument, you TRULY do not understand what sort of weight these words carry, and have carried throughout history. You do not understand what it means to be discriminated against because of your race in the same way blacks were enslaved, beaten, segregated, and oppressed throughout American history. You do NOT know how vulnerable it feels after being taken against your will, overpowered, and raped- and potentially contracting an STD or AIDS, or becoming pregnant, etc. These words carry weight that many of you are ignoring.
I'll take another example.. the Swastika. Before being adopted by Nazi Germany, the swastika symbol was seen in a number of places around the world- all fairly peaceful or mundane, many times in some sort of religious context. Then what happened? It became the symbol of an evil regime who killed millions of innocent people. So what? Is it OK to use the swastika now, and claim it's just a religious artifact when you know what history has done to this symbol? Can you say "No dude, you're taking it totally out of context..." when you're hanging a diamond swastika around your neck, saying it's your religious beliefs? How would you think people respond to something like that? I believe a fairly reasonable person would say, "It's a bit insensitive. That symbol has a pretty ugly weighted history.."
I think the same care absolutely must be taken with these words. I will also say I really like Destiny's stream. I don't mind so much that he swears, curses, etc. He is catering to his own audience, which is great. But- any tournament, caster, or entity that wants to take itself seriously should not, under any "context", use these words- because they should know better about the weight they carry.
Just my $.02.
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Every comedian and their mother makes sexist and or racist jokes. And a lot of what Destiny does is play the comedian on his stream, so I have no problem with that.
However, in other contexts, like casting for a tourney that's trying to be professional, of course it's not appropriate.
"Rape" should not be trivialized to mean beat in a video game. That said, sexist jokes have been made, can be made, and will be continued to be made. It's not a problem unique to the Starcraft community by any means.
So yeah, sexist jokes have their place in the SC society like any other society, but they should be kept out of places where were trying to be professional.
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On May 30 2011 03:09 -_- wrote:
I wanted to watch a Starcraft 2 show, but ended up hearing a discussion about philology. That conversation was innapropriate for the show, and the panelists and callers were unqualified to dicsuss to topic at hand. I just wanted to hear people better than me at Starcraft 2 talk about Starcraft 2.
I hear ya man. Instead we got white males talking about rape and racism.
I'd offter an e-hug but someone would probably (out of context?) call me the f-word.
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How incontrol joins in to suddently act as the offence police is really ironic, considering he prolly has offended more people in his sc career, then any of the other streamers/casters.
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On May 30 2011 03:09 -_- wrote:
I wanted to watch a Starcraft 2 show, but ended up hearing a discussion about philology. That conversation was innapropriate for the show, and the panelists and callers were unqualified to dicsuss to topic at hand. I just wanted to hear people better than me at Starcraft 2 talk about Starcraft 2.
Also this. ^^
If there really has to be a debate about it, then do it properly. The manner that was thrown together and discussed accomplished nothing and only had me shaking my head at both sides of the argument for making poor point after poor point. Obviously this wasn't the norm for WoC, so it's not like I'm up in arms over 1 episode going astray, but discussions like this have to be handled much more delicately if done in the future.
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EPT
