On May 30 2011 03:11 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote: I am going to assume most of the readers/posters here are not black, and are not a victim (or know a victim) of rape.
Perhaps I am not black nor I have been raped (though the closest person to me has been). But I cannot see in 3d, have been severely bullied at school, lost a parent to alcohol and suffer from severe migraines. Every time someone mentions 3d movies, bullying, alcohol, cancer and headaches I am reminded of such miseries and I feel horrible for a bit.
So please stop talking about them, because a tiny minority of the population is like me and might suffer from it.
On May 30 2011 03:03 DISHU wrote: he seemed so insensitive and as a black person i wont wacth his stream agian either i used to like his stream as well to bad.
if a person doesnt want to be called a name what rigth do you have unless your arrogant .
I don't want people who get offended by me using a word out of context watching my stream.
I'd love you to answer this Destiny, i have some sympathy to your viewpoint but i think it doesn't take account of the context in a lot of these cases.
IE why is it that amongst a community which is primarily young, straight males the reflex insult of choices is a homosexual slur?
Because a straight man doesn't like being thought of as gay. That should be fairly obvious. Just like saying "stop acting like a little girl" is an insult to a grown man, not an insult to a little girl.
Reflex insult among girls is often to call one another a slut or a whore, because most girls don't like being referred to as that. Not exactly deep social thinking here.
Why are they so desperately insecure about that idea? You don't have to be gay to realise that being gay isn't a bad thing. All this highlights is how deeply imbedded these homophobic ideals are, particularly amongst young straight men.
I don't care about swear words, since they don't carry an inherently negative connotation with them. Say "fuck" all you want, it's only negative because some people are too prude to think about the real meaning of the word.
I do have a problem with the "n-word", because it is inherently negative. Same could be said about "rape". Those words only carry a negative meaning attached to them, even if it's out of context, the root meaning of that word was negative.
The whole discussion with InControl was summed up in the start of the show: -it's fine to notify people of what kind of content stream offers -streamer chooses his vocabulary as he sees fit
What is offensive is super subjective. I bet there is much more people who are in some way connected to murder victims than rape victims. InControl just jokingly dodged that point saying that only "nigger" and "rape" is not okay.
Also, for example, how many comedians don't have any offensive jokes in their repertuar. Is this not okay? :
On May 30 2011 03:12 Pekkz wrote: How incontrol joins in to suddently act as the offence police is really ironic, considering he prolly has offended more people in his sc career, then any of the other streamers/casters.
And he's taken a fucking lot of flak for it. If anything he has experience with the issues at hand. Compare today's Incontrol to the Incontrol a year ago.
here is the best comparison. but the difference is that he insulted on person level, kelly milikes, total biscuit,etc etc (list is way long) and he continues to do it with his "not so funny european" jokes packed in a fine packagind.
Whatever, not going to discuss whether Incontrol is professional or blablabla, I believe he shaped up and you obviously didn't. It's not the point.
He argued at point and supported said points with arguments. Not sure why you would attack his person rather than the case he was making, which was more than valid.
On May 30 2011 03:03 DISHU wrote: he seemed so insensitive and as a black person i wont wacth his stream agian either i used to like his stream as well to bad.
if a person doesnt want to be called a name what rigth do you have unless your arrogant .
I don't want people who get offended by me using a word out of context watching my stream.
I'd love you to answer this Destiny, i have some sympathy to your viewpoint but i think it doesn't take account of the context in a lot of these cases.
IE why is it that amongst a community which is primarily young, straight males the reflex insult of choices is a homosexual slur?
Because it is on all of the internet, and RL too?
Widespread cultural homophobia is hardly an excuse for the SC2 community making the same mistakes. The more people learn that words like that can have negative repercussions and that it's better not to use them in that way the closer we'll get to eliminating these sorts of issues.
It's not homophobia. Just like when people "nigger" it isn't ment as racism in 99% of the times.
Then why not choose one of the other thousands of words that could be used in its place? Its absolutely ridiculous at this point that people are so insistent on using it when it offends a lot of people. I mean really, someone could just not use the n word and rape, and what would happen? Would the world come crashing down? Would their jokes suddenly never be funny again? If someone is so reliant on using those 2 words, they should probably try to diversify their language anyway.
As someone who is in their early 20s, I can recall when I was like 14 years old in high school and saying the n word and rape were pretty normal for a lot of gaming cliques. But then we grew up and realized that it was unneeded and in really poor taste. It is plain and simply unnecessary. Just move on, use another word, and avoid all of this mess. What is so hard about that?
On May 30 2011 03:12 Pekkz wrote: How incontrol joins in to suddently act as the offence police is really ironic, considering he prolly has offended more people in his sc career, then any of the other streamers/casters.
Yeah, I gotta agree, while I don't necessarily think either party is in the wrong, Inc coming on and calling people racist is kind of ironic and hypocritical.
This is silly, Inc came on to defend a viewpoint, acknowledged that in the past he's probably caused offence for some of these same reasons, and discussed how he's attempted to change himself because he feels it does matter.
While it might not be the kind of discussion people would have expected on the show, I actually thought it was pretty interesting to listen to and I'm glad both sides of the argument got thoroughly aired, though I do strongly come down on the side Geoff was arguing for.
On May 30 2011 03:03 DISHU wrote: he seemed so insensitive and as a black person i wont wacth his stream agian either i used to like his stream as well to bad.
if a person doesnt want to be called a name what rigth do you have unless your arrogant .
I don't want people who get offended by me using a word out of context watching my stream.
There is no acceptable context to use the "n-word" as a white man.
DjWheat tried to make the point of listening to music and hearing things that are considered offensive, however, if you think about who is saying the "n-word" in songs they're all black. Imagine the shitstorm that would happen if Eminem tried to release a song saying it.
You mean like this song right here?
Just imagine the shitstorm right? It would be sooooo bad. /facepalm
On May 30 2011 03:03 DISHU wrote: he seemed so insensitive and as a black person i wont wacth his stream agian either i used to like his stream as well to bad.
if a person doesnt want to be called a name what rigth do you have unless your arrogant .
I don't want people who get offended by me using a word out of context watching my stream.
I'd love you to answer this Destiny, i have some sympathy to your viewpoint but i think it doesn't take account of the context in a lot of these cases.
IE why is it that amongst a community which is primarily young, straight males the reflex insult of choices is a homosexual slur?
Because a straight man doesn't like being thought of as gay. That should be fairly obvious. Just like saying "stop acting like a little girl" is an insult to a grown man, not an insult to a little girl.
Reflex insult among girls is often to call one another a slut or a whore, because most girls don't like being referred to as that. Not exactly deep social thinking here.
Why are they so desperately insecure about that idea? You don't have to be gay to realise that being gay isn't a bad thing. This just highlights is how deeply imbedded these homophobic ideals are, particularly amongst young straight men.
See it's not about being bad, it's about being called something you are not.
I wouldn't really like being called a Republican and it would be kind of insulting, because I'm not one. Are Republicans some detestable and bad thing? No of course not, it's just not me.
I make gay insults to my straight friends all the time, I have a gay friend that I insult by calling him a "straight prude", it's a funny insult because he's not a straight prude, he's pretty much the opposite, gay and open about it. It's not an sweeping insult towards straight men or some statement that I have some phobia of them, because that would make no sense at all. The context of the word is what has the most meaning, not the word itself.
On May 30 2011 03:03 DISHU wrote: he seemed so insensitive and as a black person i wont wacth his stream agian either i used to like his stream as well to bad.
if a person doesnt want to be called a name what rigth do you have unless your arrogant .
I don't want people who get offended by me using a word out of context watching my stream.
I'd love you to answer this Destiny, i have some sympathy to your viewpoint but i think it doesn't take account of the context in a lot of these cases.
IE why is it that amongst a community which is primarily young, straight males the reflex insult of choices is a homosexual slur?
Because it is on all of the internet, and RL too?
Widespread cultural homophobia is hardly an excuse for the SC2 community making the same mistakes. The more people learn that words like that can have negative repercussions and that it's better not to use them in that way the closer we'll get to eliminating these sorts of issues.
calling someone a fag isnt homophobia though. words always have and always will change meaning over time as they get used in different contexts. holding on to words like fag as homophobia just comes across as people looking to get pissed off so they can start drama.
you're blind or stupid if you don't think that young straight guys mean gay when they call someone a faggot at least 80% of the time. There's a reason a homosexual slur has supposedly morphed into a word that generally describes feminine/annoying/flamboyant behavior and it's not because of our societies mature acceptance of different sexualities.
One thing I think Incontrol forgets is that this is the internet (urgh, I hate that sentance). People from all around the world gathered in one big place, people with different culture and different history. We didn't get taught about the whole issue with black people where I grew up, or Rosa Parks. The N-word, to the majority of the internet (urgh) has very little meaning.
Languages evolve, and the meaning of words change, about 100 years ago, "järnspikar" (directly translated: Iron nails) used to be a taboo word in Sweden, now you'll just get confused looks if you use it to express anger. And lawyers seems to do their best to define everything sexual as "rape". Someone grabbed your ass in a nightclub? Rape! You had consensual sex with someone and finds out 2 days later he had a girlfriend? Rape! etc...
With people from all around the world, you simply can't cater to everyone, if you find it offensive to see women in streams, there are houndreds (probably) thousands of streams out there that don't include women. The internet is big enough for all of us.
On May 30 2011 03:11 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote: I am going to assume most of the readers/posters here are not black, and are not a victim (or know a victim) of rape.
Perhaps I am not black nor I have been raped (though the closest person to me has been). But I cannot see in 3d, have been severely bullied at school, lost a parent to alcohol and suffer from severe migraines. Every time someone mentions 3d movies, bullying, alcohol, cancer and headaches I am reminded of such miseries and I feel horrible for a bit.
So please stop talking about them, because a tiny minority of the population is like me and might suffer from it.
Come on.
Amen to that brother =( I was looking forward to see if 3DS would work for me, sadly it didn't, it just looked blurry =(
On May 30 2011 03:12 Pekkz wrote: How incontrol joins in to suddently act as the offence police is really ironic, considering he prolly has offended more people in his sc career, then any of the other streamers/casters.
And he's taken a fucking lot of flak for it. If anything he has experience with the issues at hand. Compare today's Incontrol to the Incontrol a year ago.
here is the best comparison. but the difference is that he insulted on person level, kelly milikes, total biscuit,etc etc (list is way long) and he continues to do it with his "not so funny european" jokes packed in a fine packagind.
Whatever, not going to discuss whether Incontrol is professional or blablabla, I believe he shaped up and you obviously didn't. It's not the point.
He argued at point and supported said points with arguments. Not sure why you would attack his person rather than the case he was making, which was more than valid.
But in the context of entrataining stream which destiny is having, there are some words and some things that may be offended by someone, its just the same thing with stand up shows, if you don't like it, don't go and listen/watch it, because there will be always someone offended. Incontrol came at the show preaching about whitch words not to use and thats a great PR stunt but it doesn't apply at destinys stream because context of his streaming is different. Context is more important than taking the word and deciding is it bad or wrong. Word "war" in SC2 context doesnt bother me, but i am in country where war was and i cant equalize total biscuit in the middle of the cast screaming IT IS WAR, with the word that is genneraly worse than N words or F words.
I have been a fan in the community for the past year or so. I love the content you produce. Please limit your association with people like 'Destiny'. His comments and arrogance about the use of those words were -not good-.
I appreciate the discussion you all had, but surely you can tell the difference between InControl doing a stereotype impersonation and someone using the 'N' word and then trying to defend it like 'Destiny' did.
I realize that everyone says what they have to say in order to create entertaining content.. but to justify it the way he did is pretty offensive.. Please don't have Destiny on anymore of your shows !!
On May 30 2011 03:11 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote: I am going to assume most of the readers/posters here are not black, and are not a victim (or know a victim) of rape.
Perhaps I am not black nor I have been raped (though the closest person to me has been). But I cannot see in 3d, have been severely bullied at school, lost a parent to alcohol and suffer from severe migraines. Every time someone mentions 3d movies, bullying, alcohol, cancer and headaches I am reminded of such miseries and I feel horrible for a bit.
So please stop talking about them, because a tiny minority of the population is like me and might suffer from it.
Come on.
That opening sentence was supposed to open your eyes about a particular weight these words historically carry. I hope you were able to read past it to see my whole post.
let me re-quote Cusu's post, which I believe is pretty crucial.
CusuOn the same token by using "nigger" you may not be at all describing or relating it to black people, but you mean it in a negative way and that word unfortunately DOES relate to black people.
I am sorry to say that historically your words do not carry the same weight as the above - (nigger, fag, etc, etc). And I agree, not everyone can be spared from being offended. But nigger and faggot are two words that cannot be spoken against someone in a way that doesn't relate an entire population of people in an extremely negative way. We all know how history has shaped them.
Quite simply, they have no place in a professional StarCraft cast. Destiny streams to his own audience, and I accept mature language/content age-gate every time I tune in so I know what I'm getting into, and I think he's a pretty damn funny guy. But imagine if a NASL/TSL/etc caster busted out with a "Holy shit that nigger just got raped!" or something using these inflammatory words to describe StarCraft (seperate context) when one player suffers a crushing loss to another... how would that reflect on the caster? The organization behind the tournament as a whole? Pretty poorly, in my opinion because they are allowing themselves to "ignore" and "forget" the history of this historically charged and weighted word.
I have been a fan in the community for the past year or so. I love the content you produce. Please limit your association with people like 'Destiny'. His comments and arrogance about the use of those words were -not good-.
I appreciate the discussion you all had, but surely you can tell the difference between InControl doing a stereotype impersonation and someone using the 'N' word and then trying to defend it like 'Destiny' did.
I realize that everyone says what they have to say in order to create entertaining content.. but to justify it the way he did is pretty offensive.. Please don't have Destiny on anymore of your shows !!
The point is there is no difference. It's all subjective. Incontrol's impression could be just as offensive to a Native American as the N-word is to an African American.
On May 30 2011 03:03 DISHU wrote: he seemed so insensitive and as a black person i wont wacth his stream agian either i used to like his stream as well to bad.
if a person doesnt want to be called a name what rigth do you have unless your arrogant .
While I agree with you, you have to understand that Destiny is rather immature. I am not defending his view point, but he doesn't sound like someone who has encountered this issue throughout his life. I am willing to bet that he doesn't frequent many African-American communities (having 1 or 2 black friends doesn't count). His point is offensive, but he's not offensive in his own eyes. I think it's just a lack of knowledge/understanding.
He thinks its valid to say "why are you assuming I mean it offensively." While other people are saying "why do you have to say the words that offend my culture." Destiny thinks that blacks will "mature" and eventually not get offended, but I think that is the wrong approach. But again I think this is a maturity issue on Destiny's part. I honestly don't think he means ill will. Keep watching his stream if you like it. You can disagree with someone's view point on language and still enjoy their content
You have made so many baseless, ridiculous assumptions that I"m not even sure how to approach this post. You sound like the most bigoted person in existence to start off your response with a declaration about my level of maturity, and then follow it up with statements (of fact) about my life when you don't know me, or know of my history.
On May 30 2011 03:11 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote: I am going to assume most of the readers/posters here are not black, and are not a victim (or know a victim) of rape.
To those that are neither, and still defend Destiny's argument, you TRULY do not understand what sort of weight these words carry, and have carried throughout history. You do not understand what it means to be discriminated against because of your race in the same way blacks were enslaved, beaten, segregated, and oppressed throughout American history. You do NOT know how vulnerable it feels after being taken against your will, overpowered, and raped- and potentially contracting an STD or AIDS, or becoming pregnant, etc. These words carry weight that many of you are ignoring.
You know who else doesn't understand what it means to be enslaved, beaten, segrated, or oppressed throughout American history? ANY BLACK PERSON UNDER 50 YEARS OF AGE.
I'll take another example.. the Swastika. Before being adopted by Nazi Germany, the swastika symbol was seen in a number of places around the world- all fairly peaceful or mundane, many times in some sort of religious context. Then what happened? It became the symbol of an evil regime who killed millions of innocent people. So what? Is it OK to use the swastika now, and claim it's just a religious artifact when you know what history has done to this symbol? Can you say "No dude, you're taking it totally out of context..." when you're hanging a diamond swastika around your neck, saying it's your religious beliefs? How would you think people respond to something like that? I believe a fairly reasonable person would say, "It's a bit insensitive. That symbol has a pretty ugly weighted history.."
So, what you're saying is that if I draw a swastika for any reason, I automatically support nazism? "ok"
On May 30 2011 03:03 DISHU wrote: he seemed so insensitive and as a black person i wont wacth his stream agian either i used to like his stream as well to bad.
if a person doesnt want to be called a name what rigth do you have unless your arrogant .
I don't want people who get offended by me using a word out of context watching my stream.
I'd love you to answer this Destiny, i have some sympathy to your viewpoint but i think it doesn't take account of the context in a lot of these cases.
IE why is it that amongst a community which is primarily young, straight males the reflex insult of choices is a homosexual slur?
Because it is on all of the internet, and RL too?
Widespread cultural homophobia is hardly an excuse for the SC2 community making the same mistakes. The more people learn that words like that can have negative repercussions and that it's better not to use them in that way the closer we'll get to eliminating these sorts of issues.
calling someone a fag isnt homophobia though. words always have and always will change meaning over time as they get used in different contexts. holding on to words like fag as homophobia just comes across as people looking to get pissed off so they can start drama.
you're blind or stupid if you don't think that young straight guys mean gay when they call someone a faggot at least 80% of the time. There's a reason a homosexual slur has supposedly morphed into a word that generally describes feminine/annoying/flamboyant behavior and it's not because of our societies mature acceptance of different sexualities.
So what? Doesn't have anything to do with homophobia.
it goes to the very heart as to why its usage in this context is implicitly homophobic. The argument people use seems to revolve around this idea that the word faggot doesn't have an offensive meaning in this context. I explained why it still does for a number of reasons, particularly the way it is used in most online contexts.
On May 30 2011 03:12 Pekkz wrote: How incontrol joins in to suddently act as the offence police is really ironic, considering he prolly has offended more people in his sc career, then any of the other streamers/casters.
And he's taken a fucking lot of flak for it. If anything he has experience with the issues at hand. Compare today's Incontrol to the Incontrol a year ago.
here is the best comparison. but the difference is that he insulted on person level, kelly milikes, total biscuit,etc etc (list is way long) and he continues to do it with his "not so funny european" jokes packed in a fine packagind.
Whatever, not going to discuss whether Incontrol is professional or blablabla, I believe he shaped up and you obviously didn't. It's not the point.
He argued at point and supported said points with arguments. Not sure why you would attack his person rather than the case he was making, which was more than valid.
But in the context of entrataining stream which destiny is having, there are some words and some things that may be offended by someone, its just the same thing with stand up shows, if you don't like it, don't go and listen/watch it, because there will be always someone offended. Incontrol came at the show preaching about whitch words not to use and thats a great PR stunt but it doesn't apply at destinys stream because context of his streaming is different. Context is more important than taking the word and deciding is it bad or wrong. Word "war" in SC2 context doesnt bother me, but i am in country where war was and i cant equalize total biscuit in the middle of the cast screaming IT IS WAR, with the word that is genneraly worse than N words or F words.
I was just pointing out that there's no point in attacking Incontrol's person, now you're arguing against his case which is fine. I don't actually share Incontrol's views either, ad hominem just irks me.
I wouldn't want people being called niggers when I watch the NASL, but a user stream? I really, really don't care.
I have been a fan in the community for the past year or so. I love the content you produce. Please limit your association with people like 'Destiny'. His comments and arrogance about the use of those words were -not good-.
I appreciate the discussion you all had, but surely you can tell the difference between InControl doing a stereotype impersonation and someone using the 'N' word and then trying to defend it like 'Destiny' did.
I realize that everyone says what they have to say in order to create entertaining content.. but to justify it the way he did is pretty offensive.. Please don't have Destiny on anymore of your shows !!
Dear language police,
Please provide us with a list of words that are guaranteed to not offended any minority in the world. Once provided, we will immediately cease all use of such dialect until further notice.
EPT
