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On April 08 2010 05:22 ScrapUSA wrote:
I'm thinking zealots might be used for terran more frequently now with the marauder nerf. Maybe an early zealot push.. no kiting for those marauders.
Clearly you aren't paying attention at all.
They'll have the upgrade done long before you're in a position to break their wall... it takes less time than building 3 marauders
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On April 08 2010 05:15 3FFA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 05:12 StarcraftMan wrote:On April 08 2010 05:09 3FFA wrote:
It gives a basic idea of the rush. The fact can be placed at many different places, for instance somewhere hidden by the 3rd (at edge) or between 3rd and high yield. This just gives a basic idea and as was said, this can defeat Platinum players! The rush comes even faster now with the faster build time of the Thor. And yet you don't see the huge window to kill the Terran in that VOD? Again, the window to kill the Terran in that VOD is quite large with proper scouting. It may be a huge window but, how do u scout a terran if the terran walled-off properly and can easily stop ur scouting probe as it can't see anything except some depots, some marines and a barracks? Please tell me how.
Because you send in your probe before he walls off, duhhhhhhh. Have you not seen top level Protoss players who get their probe into the Terran base and just run several circles in the Terran base before the Terran gets a marine out?
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Maraduer nerf, finally! :D Thank you Blizzard!
And I guess they're making the Void Ray more useful as a unit in your "army" instead of just having them sneak into your opponent's base and destroy their Nexus/Hatch/CC. At least that was almost the only reason I used them, though very rarely. Sure, they were good vs big units such as BCs but games almost never reach that point.
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On April 08 2010 05:23 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 05:15 3FFA wrote:On April 08 2010 05:12 StarcraftMan wrote:On April 08 2010 05:09 3FFA wrote:
It gives a basic idea of the rush. The fact can be placed at many different places, for instance somewhere hidden by the 3rd (at edge) or between 3rd and high yield. This just gives a basic idea and as was said, this can defeat Platinum players! The rush comes even faster now with the faster build time of the Thor. And yet you don't see the huge window to kill the Terran in that VOD? Again, the window to kill the Terran in that VOD is quite large with proper scouting. It may be a huge window but, how do u scout a terran if the terran walled-off properly and can easily stop ur scouting probe as it can't see anything except some depots, some marines and a barracks? Please tell me how. Because you send in your probe before he walls off, duhhhhhhh. Have you not seen top level Protoss players who get their probe into the Terran base and just run several circles in the Terran base before the Terran gets a marine out?
Yes I have and I am one of them but against a good terran he'll take out ur probe no-problem and will appear to be just delaying his tech to make sure you don't see what hes going for.
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On April 08 2010 05:19 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 05:16 0neder wrote:
Roaches shouldn't even be tanks. Nothing Zerg should be tanks except Ultras. They're ZERG for pete's sake. sadly doesnt work with the sc2 gameflow anymore. vs T the lurkers are missing and since P has the collosus that deals half a psistorm per shot hydras and lings get totally SUPER raped with a simple aclick. (not to mention forcefield totally destroying lings,ultras and any bigger hydra force)
first of all - who is pete?
No srsly, roaches are still fine against Collossi and Hydras/roaches will be worse against HT's, but after the huge Storm-nerf and the pretty big Colossi-nerf, that's not that bad at all...
and why do you think Lurkers are missing VS T? I guess Protoss also missed the Reaver and Arbiter against T and T misses the Medic, Firebat etc. ^^'
I don't think that any Race is missing a Unit, because for that to be true, the balance is way too good right now. If a race would be short of a key Unit, that would definitely show in certain MU's. But it's totally understandable that ppl are a bit annoyed that the Lurker is not in the game as of yet, because it really looked like it would be in the BETA. Personally, I realized only after Days into the Beta (got Key after first week maybe) watching streams 24/7, that I haven't seen a single Lurker so far and only then found out that they weren't even in the Beta-build. xD
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On April 08 2010 05:25 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 05:19 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On April 08 2010 05:16 0neder wrote:
Roaches shouldn't even be tanks. Nothing Zerg should be tanks except Ultras. They're ZERG for pete's sake. sadly doesnt work with the sc2 gameflow anymore. vs T the lurkers are missing and since P has the collosus that deals half a psistorm per shot hydras and lings get totally SUPER raped with a simple aclick. (not to mention forcefield totally destroying lings,ultras and any bigger hydra force) first of all - who is pete?
lol.
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Woah concussive shells now require upgrades? This sucks for marrauders and I don't forsee the concussive shells being highly upgraded considering how expensive they are. On the good side though, hydras and roaches are nerfed and thors and tanks are buffed. YAY!
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On April 08 2010 03:42 bountyface wrote:
Void Ray got rebalanced, not nerfed, what are you all smoking. Its initial damage is now much much larger.
very true.
basically this change might stop them from being really good against the very few huge units in the game (ultras, BC,Thor, thats about it) + buildings and being really really fucking bad against everything else to being much more balanced and a better overall unit.
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On April 08 2010 05:23 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 05:22 ScrapUSA wrote:
I'm thinking zealots might be used for terran more frequently now with the marauder nerf. Maybe an early zealot push.. no kiting for those marauders. Clearly you aren't paying attention at all. They'll have the upgrade done long before you're in a position to break their wall... it takes less time than building 3 marauders
he was probably referring to early-game before research.. like.. proxy.. or something.. IF IT WERENT for the whole reaper proxy fiasco terran's use now, you could probably open with a single zealot before getting ur stalker now too...
also, i noticed up posted about how reapers get to ur base before ur stalker comes out (diff thread), i've faced this and 3-0d the guy, sure he got 1 or 2 or maybe even 3 probe kills each time, but seriously he lost alot more by proxying that barracks (delay his maximum economic build) --meanwhile protoss can constantly build probes while rushign to stalker--- and he now has a barracks in the middle of the map u can pick off...
chrono boosted stalker > that
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So now hydras and mutas get raped by thors... I guess ZvT is pretty much massing roaches at this point in time. And with roaches being the most boring and uninteresting unit with no real special ability that is useful in SC2, I'm done with SC2 until they make zerg fun to play again.
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currently if a void rays target dies within 3 seconds, the void ray gets 0 credit to its ramp up time and must switch targets and try again to ramp up
in toss vs toss mass void rays was a popular strategy and if the enemy army didnt have any carriers you wanted to just attack-move all your void rays so they all hit different targets so they all got 3 seconds to ramp up, and they needed to ramp twice to do full damage
after a void ray ramps up i believe they keep the ramp between attacks for 3-4 seconds, after that the amp is lost
problem with new patch. will void rays have to attack a target for 6 seconds now to get the "first ramp" to their full damage, or will void rays have to attack a target for 3 seconds to get the "first ramp" to no bonus, and then 3 more seconds to get the "second ramp" to full damage?
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On April 08 2010 05:23 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 05:22 ScrapUSA wrote:
I'm thinking zealots might be used for terran more frequently now with the marauder nerf. Maybe an early zealot push.. no kiting for those marauders. Clearly you aren't paying attention at all. They'll have the upgrade done long before you're in a position to break their wall... it takes less time than building 3 marauders
Actually, upgrading concussive shells means no stim upgrade, and vice versa, in the earlier game. The high gas cost of the concussive shells either means less marauders for the Terran, or a later stim upgrade. The 100 gas cost for concussive shells = 4 marauders. An early zealot push is actually viable now.
In the case the early zealot push fails, don't forget the Terran had to spend an extra 100 gas on concussive shells - that means the Terran's factory will have been delayed, and advanced tech in general for the Terran has been delayed.
This is a huge win for Protoss playing PvT.
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Noooes mah beloved Marauder QQ
Neh good change =)
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On April 08 2010 05:29 NightOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 05:23 -orb- wrote:On April 08 2010 05:22 ScrapUSA wrote:
I'm thinking zealots might be used for terran more frequently now with the marauder nerf. Maybe an early zealot push.. no kiting for those marauders. Clearly you aren't paying attention at all. They'll have the upgrade done long before you're in a position to break their wall... it takes less time than building 3 marauders he was probably referring to early-game before research.. like.. proxy.. or something.. IF IT WERENT for the whole reaper proxy fiasco terran's use now, you could probably open with a single zealot before getting ur stalker now too... also, i noticed up posted about how reapers get to ur base before ur stalker comes out (diff thread), i've faced this and 3-0d the guy, sure he got 1 or 2 or maybe even 3 probe kills each time, but seriously he lost alot more by proxying that barracks (delay his maximum economic build) --meanwhile protoss can constantly build probes while rushign to stalker--- and he now has a barracks in the middle of the map u can pick off... chrono boosted stalker > that
This is why as terran I see Husky the Husky always get a single reaper from his barracks in his wall-in to go harass the protoss for a bit.
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So much conjecture in this thread. Actually playing the game after the patch would be tens times more helpful than stating baseless nonsense. This patch over all looks to balance the issues most players have atm, but only time will tell. We have come to this point through playing the beta and seeing certain trends, i.e. pre-patch marauder or roach spam. Every patch so far we see the game getting better and better. This patch looks to produce more diversified army compositions, something the zerg and terran were severely lacking.
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United States17042 Posts
yay good thing that roaches got nerfed enough. PvT is going to be slightly more interesting as well.
The liquipedia build just got easier lol
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and why do you think Lurkers are missing VS T? I guess Protoss also missed the Reaver and Arbiter against T and T misses the Medic, Firebat etc. ^^'
you cant compare lurker to a firebat or a reaver. esp since p&t got some equivalent units(collosus,hellion,medivac etc).
the lurker was a total key unit to zergs play. if you want to compare em to anything its more the tank or templar.
This patch looks to produce more diversified army compositions, something the zerg and terran were severely lacking.
that is the key problem for Z. zerg just has no army diversity. and their only 2 real viable units got nerfed. with the hydra nerf beeing totally uncalled for and the roach nerf totally ignoring the problem.
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So immortals 3 shot roaches now =<. That's not as bad as the hydra nerf though. The marauder nerf is pretty much negligible except for very early stuff.
Also, how am I supposed to beat a full fledged mech army now >.<. I already had trouble before, so I resolved to beat them before that was possible, but now they can get it faster too.
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On April 08 2010 05:33 3FFA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 05:29 NightOne wrote:On April 08 2010 05:23 -orb- wrote:On April 08 2010 05:22 ScrapUSA wrote:
I'm thinking zealots might be used for terran more frequently now with the marauder nerf. Maybe an early zealot push.. no kiting for those marauders. Clearly you aren't paying attention at all. They'll have the upgrade done long before you're in a position to break their wall... it takes less time than building 3 marauders he was probably referring to early-game before research.. like.. proxy.. or something.. IF IT WERENT for the whole reaper proxy fiasco terran's use now, you could probably open with a single zealot before getting ur stalker now too... also, i noticed up posted about how reapers get to ur base before ur stalker comes out (diff thread), i've faced this and 3-0d the guy, sure he got 1 or 2 or maybe even 3 probe kills each time, but seriously he lost alot more by proxying that barracks (delay his maximum economic build) --meanwhile protoss can constantly build probes while rushign to stalker--- and he now has a barracks in the middle of the map u can pick off... chrono boosted stalker > that This is why as terran I see Husky the Husky always get a single reaper from his barracks in his wall-in to go harass the protoss for a bit.
wall-in reaper gets to ur base at the same time your stalker coems out.. proxy reaper gets to ur base faster at the cost of economy and no-wall-in... (not that terran need wall-in vs toss, although they might now if they dont rush concussive)
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Wow, I've only just realized it's now possible to play aggressive with 2-gate-Stalkers against Terran!
Before that, Marauders made moving out on the Map with any T1 or T1,5 Unit from the Toss practically a suicide-mission. This will increase Positioning and early aggression without just 2-gate-rushing quite a bit. Really looking forward to mass a few games against Terran tomorrow (hopefully, by then the patch will be up and running).
This is IMHO a pretty big deal, cuz you basically could only do blind rushes with a few Immortals to hit the right timing-window when the T was expanding to punish him for it, but you could also hit a wall of Marauders if he wasn't. Now, you can constantly add a bit pressure and scout the Terran - awesome!
*Edit: Immos can now kill Roaches in 3 shots compared to 4 before the patch: IMHO not a big deal at all, because so little DMG was missing after the 3rd shot befor the patch (1 DMG if I'm correct), that you'd only have to hit the Roache once with any other Unit... Would've been quite stupid if it had been a big deal, cuz then massing Immos would've still been by far the best solution to counter roaches, even with Zalots/sentrys/VR's/Stalkers now being more useful against them, which they should be btw.
I'm gonna go without building a Robo for the next few hundred PvZ's I guess - just to test out some FE-into Stargate-builds Oldschool-style! ^^'
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EPT
