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The value of "cheesing" IMO is that it helps to establish the baseline for standard play. A standard strat that loses consistently to cheese has a gaping hole in it. Saying "You should work on standard play" is great advice if you accept the premise that standard play is well established after one month in a beta where changes are made every week.
Edit:
If you have a great BO that loses to 8 pool rush all the time, then it's not a great build. What could be worse than a build that makes you lose to even the scrubbiest players on earth?
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On March 17 2010 06:13 Wintermute wrote:
If you have a great BO that loses to 8 pool rush all the time, then it's not a great build. What could be worse than a build that makes you lose to even the scrubbiest players on earth?
Well said. If you cannot scout and counter the cheese, it was a valid aggressive play to defeat your build, wasn't it? If we choose to deny that this is the case, we are saying that the cheese was overpowered and perhaps that needs looking at. But in competition there is only what you can do and what you cannot do. You can bunker rush, 8pool all-in, prox 2-gate, double gas steal and then zealot rush... If you lose you have no right to complain but if you win nobody else is really in the right for saying you didn't earn it.
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If you don't cheese then the expected value of openings is no longer correct. If you do cheese you will reach a level where your opponents don't just die to it more quickly, making longer macro games a more effective learning experience than they would have been at lower levels. Additionally this is a beta. Cheese is one of the most important things to test heavily right away to balance. Something that goes wrong 5 minutes into the game is more important than something that goes wrong 15 minutes in.
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On March 16 2010 23:40 rackdude wrote:
Disagreed:
Why you should cheese in the Beta ladder.
The goal is to exploit the game and find whatever strategies are unstoppable/imbalanced. You've basically been chosen to this, that's what a beta is for. If you think you can win every game with a cheese, exploit your heart out and make people cry on the forums.
I agree with this and I think op is wrong as far as betas are concerned. Better to learn what abuses can be done now while they are patching weekly. I am very gratefully to all the toss players who were abusing warp gates. They helped make SC2 a better game.
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Respond to my post please I'm curious how you will rationalize, its not really nice to just ignore peoples argument and instead argue the merits of cheese, which is what we weren't supposed to do here, I'm pretty sure.
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Fact is people care about winning first, getting better second. They'll only try to get better once they start losing. Simple truth.
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Hmmm don't agree with OP, but a point is that generic, luck-based cheeses are generally going to be common and the top players after a while will be able to handle it easily and account for the possibility of such a build in their own build. In this way having some people cheese pays off.
Creative cheese that you tailor to your opponent/the situation and isn't entirely luck based - instead noticing a weakness in your opponent's standard opening - is great and the day people stop doing it in favour of repetitive, cookie-cutter standard builds is the day I find a new game to play.
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United States33510 Posts
OP post pretty much says:
"Don't cheese if you want to get good at non-cheese." Thanks, that helps a lot.
Fact: Being "good" and "getting better" actually just mean "winning" and "winning more."
In order to maximize your winning, you can't cheese 100% of the time, and you can't play standard 100% of the time either. In order to win as much as possible, you have to mix the two strategies at a certain ratio. But in any case, you should cheese sometimes =o
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On March 17 2010 03:29 ShaperofDreams wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 02:32 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 02:24 Chill wrote:On March 17 2010 01:59 JTPROG wrote:
You won't win a tourney with cheese. There are countless examples proving you wrong. Winning on the ladder essentially means nothing if it's cheese. Depending on how you look at this, it is either subjective or circular logic - Take your pick.
So this boils down to "play with your best chance to win"? I agree. There was a tourney where someone won every games using cheese? Even if so, how many times did that happen? "play with your best chance to win" And you won't win if you don't have a SOLID game besides cheesing, and this is done by practicing predominantly standard play, which is the point of this thread. Cheese little, standard much, if you want to get good. I doubt anyone has ever won a major tourney did not have a SOLID standard game. And i'm sure they didn't spend much more than 5% of their time playing cheeses either. So now this theoretical player who is equal in lifestyle, talent, and motive of every other player of the world is cheesing all of the time instead of half the time? You provide no context to your argument, Id prefer to be the cheesey player against Flash or Bisu 100% of the time, or compared to Korean players in SC1 because I don't have hours to play every day. It would be way more fun to have mastered a bunch of cheese and win some than practice macro and still lose to every one with better macro (aka everyone) You're full of crap man...even Jaedong is super aggressive and takes lots of shots, if you see an opportunity take it. It would be stupid not to cheese players who go FE all the time. Also while their are some cheeses that either win or don't win, there are many plays considered "cheese" which have a transition, and maximizing the advantage after that can get complex and is very important to learn.
I don't really understand what you're trying to say in the first paragraph, but you said to reply to your post, so I'll try to.
Okay - so you can be a cheesy player against Flash or Bisu, yes, that is your best chance. I'm saying you shouldn't cheese on the ladder so that you can actually get better at the game in general. It seems everyone is misunderstanding the point and thinks i'm saying you should never cheese. This is not true. But cheesing should not be your main play or strategy. It should be very minimum, especially on the ladder. Cheesing is saved for let's say 1 game of a BO3. You can practice it on the ladder, but you must predominantly play standard games if you want to go better.
You say you don't have hours to play every day and you want to have fun. If you read the OP i said this post doesn't apply to you. This post only applies to people who want to get better by playing the ladder. Go ahead and cheese all day, but you'll never get better that way. You can abuse the ladder, but that's about it. And yes, some cheeses do have transitions into standard play, but the fact is it started with cheese, and therefore "messes up" any real standard aspects of that particular game - for both players. You can cheese once and win but to win consistently you need to be a solid player who plays solid games consistently.
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Just read through the entire thread
I can't believe some of the arguments people are making.
and the two "great posts" in OP are complete garbage
On March 17 2010 03:34 Floophead_III wrote:
As for what Idra has been saying about cheese being luck based play - it's entirely true. You're banking on whether your opponent:
a) scouts you
b) knows how to respond
c) has worse micro than you
really, just look at that
I'm just gonna say from now on, I consider 1rax FE cheese.
it's a luck based play and you're gambling on the 3 points floophead_III has outlined for me
This ridiculous notion of cheese vs standard builds is so stupid
a "standard build" is gambling it can hold off cheese and win
a "cheese build" is gambling it can damage the standard BO
both sides are playing just as fucking risky, I can apply every single argument you made to both sides.
and as for your dumbass question of the 50% cheese vs 10% cheese.
I'll consider the 50% cheese a better player.
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On March 17 2010 04:52 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
I can't really believe this is going this long...
It is in the middle: Cheese can be good. Solid play can be good.
THE BEST is a player who plays solid but mixes in a cheese every once in awhile. People forget Flash got the attention by cheesing a couple of big players and winning. Could he make a career off of that? NOT NEARLY as successful of a career as he has had if he was a pure cheeser.. that is for sure.
So practice a cheese every once in awhile on the ladder. But if you do it each game and want to defend that if it wins you games it is good is faulty and short-sighted logic. Being a solid player that does the macro style but can mix in a cheese is the most dangerous player you can be. A pure cheeser is NOT.
Amen
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On March 17 2010 08:22 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 03:29 ShaperofDreams wrote:On March 17 2010 02:32 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 02:24 Chill wrote:On March 17 2010 01:59 JTPROG wrote:
You won't win a tourney with cheese. There are countless examples proving you wrong. Winning on the ladder essentially means nothing if it's cheese. Depending on how you look at this, it is either subjective or circular logic - Take your pick.
So this boils down to "play with your best chance to win"? I agree. There was a tourney where someone won every games using cheese? Even if so, how many times did that happen? "play with your best chance to win" And you won't win if you don't have a SOLID game besides cheesing, and this is done by practicing predominantly standard play, which is the point of this thread. Cheese little, standard much, if you want to get good. I doubt anyone has ever won a major tourney did not have a SOLID standard game. And i'm sure they didn't spend much more than 5% of their time playing cheeses either. So now this theoretical player who is equal in lifestyle, talent, and motive of every other player of the world is cheesing all of the time instead of half the time? You provide no context to your argument, Id prefer to be the cheesey player against Flash or Bisu 100% of the time, or compared to Korean players in SC1 because I don't have hours to play every day. It would be way more fun to have mastered a bunch of cheese and win some than practice macro and still lose to every one with better macro (aka everyone) You're full of crap man...even Jaedong is super aggressive and takes lots of shots, if you see an opportunity take it. It would be stupid not to cheese players who go FE all the time. Also while their are some cheeses that either win or don't win, there are many plays considered "cheese" which have a transition, and maximizing the advantage after that can get complex and is very important to learn. I don't really understand what you're trying to say in the first paragraph, but you said to reply to your post, so I'll try to. Okay - so you can be a cheesy player against Flash or Bisu, yes, that is your best chance. I'm saying you shouldn't cheese on the ladder so that you can actually get better at the game in general. It seems everyone is misunderstanding the point and thinks i'm saying you should never cheese. This is not true. But cheesing should not be your main play or strategy. It should be very minimum, especially on the ladder. Cheesing is saved for let's say 1 game of a BO3. You can practice it on the ladder, but you must predominantly play standard games if you want to go better. You say you don't have hours to play every day and you want to have fun. If you read the OP i said this post doesn't apply to you. This post only applies to people who want to get better by playing the ladder. Go ahead and cheese all day, but you'll never get better that way. You can abuse the ladder, but that's about it. And yes, some cheeses do have transitions into standard play, but the fact is it started with cheese, and therefore "messes up" any real standard aspects of that particular game - for both players. You can cheese once and win but to win consistently you need to be a solid player who plays solid games consistently.
You wanna know how you get better?
you cheese mercilessly, repetitively, and vs the same few people (who will also cheese you)
You will be continuously forced to change ur strategy, and play ridiculous, low econ games that hinge on micro, decision making, scouting, and game sense.
After a while, you will learn timing windows, and be able to feel out how the game works.
Both sides will then try to maximize their econ while still not dying to the flurry of cheeses.
eventually, you will arrive upon the "standard" BO that pros use.
It's not the product, but the process that makes you a better player.
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On March 17 2010 08:29 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 08:22 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 03:29 ShaperofDreams wrote:On March 17 2010 02:32 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 02:24 Chill wrote:On March 17 2010 01:59 JTPROG wrote:
You won't win a tourney with cheese. There are countless examples proving you wrong. Winning on the ladder essentially means nothing if it's cheese. Depending on how you look at this, it is either subjective or circular logic - Take your pick.
So this boils down to "play with your best chance to win"? I agree. There was a tourney where someone won every games using cheese? Even if so, how many times did that happen? "play with your best chance to win" And you won't win if you don't have a SOLID game besides cheesing, and this is done by practicing predominantly standard play, which is the point of this thread. Cheese little, standard much, if you want to get good. I doubt anyone has ever won a major tourney did not have a SOLID standard game. And i'm sure they didn't spend much more than 5% of their time playing cheeses either. So now this theoretical player who is equal in lifestyle, talent, and motive of every other player of the world is cheesing all of the time instead of half the time? You provide no context to your argument, Id prefer to be the cheesey player against Flash or Bisu 100% of the time, or compared to Korean players in SC1 because I don't have hours to play every day. It would be way more fun to have mastered a bunch of cheese and win some than practice macro and still lose to every one with better macro (aka everyone) You're full of crap man...even Jaedong is super aggressive and takes lots of shots, if you see an opportunity take it. It would be stupid not to cheese players who go FE all the time. Also while their are some cheeses that either win or don't win, there are many plays considered "cheese" which have a transition, and maximizing the advantage after that can get complex and is very important to learn. I don't really understand what you're trying to say in the first paragraph, but you said to reply to your post, so I'll try to. Okay - so you can be a cheesy player against Flash or Bisu, yes, that is your best chance. I'm saying you shouldn't cheese on the ladder so that you can actually get better at the game in general. It seems everyone is misunderstanding the point and thinks i'm saying you should never cheese. This is not true. But cheesing should not be your main play or strategy. It should be very minimum, especially on the ladder. Cheesing is saved for let's say 1 game of a BO3. You can practice it on the ladder, but you must predominantly play standard games if you want to go better. You say you don't have hours to play every day and you want to have fun. If you read the OP i said this post doesn't apply to you. This post only applies to people who want to get better by playing the ladder. Go ahead and cheese all day, but you'll never get better that way. You can abuse the ladder, but that's about it. And yes, some cheeses do have transitions into standard play, but the fact is it started with cheese, and therefore "messes up" any real standard aspects of that particular game - for both players. You can cheese once and win but to win consistently you need to be a solid player who plays solid games consistently. You wanna know how you get better? you cheese mercilessly, repetitively, and vs the same few people (who will also cheese you) You will be continuously forced to change ur strategy, and play ridiculous, low econ games that hinge on micro, decision making, scouting, and game sense. After a while, you will learn timing windows, and be able to feel out how the game works. Both sides will then try to maximize their econ while still not dying to the flurry of cheeses. eventually, you will arrive upon the "standard" BO that pros use. It's not the product, but the process that makes you a better player.
or you can skip all the bullshit and practice what matters.
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This is the beta. It's our job to cheese the shit out of each other so it gets patched quickly if it's too broken, and that we can refine unit control and learn how to respond properly now so we don't have to witness some guy cheesing his way through a tournament later five minutes at a time.
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If it works, do it. If it doesn't work, then don't do it. If your cheese and micro works 100% then do it. If it doesn't then mix it up. I'm trying to say that it's up to you to decide what your OP strategy is. Even pro gamers saw this. If you know the timing of their BO, and you know it can be countered, then do it. You don't need to run into a wall when you can just walk around it.
In other words, if a player does the same BO over and over again, then counter it with a different BO. The whole point of doing different BO is to make yourself a little harder for your opponent to estimate. "Cheese" builds aren't glitches or cheats. They're just a different opening and as like most posters have said, it's still the beta version of testing. If this was all balanced out, even cheese builds can be defended much like the 1st Starcraft. The game is suppose to be fought with micro in the end. BOs are meant for you and your opponent to set ground what tactics, buildings are used, and units are meant to be micro. If BOs decided how the game ends, then this game isn't balanced yet.
I have yet to see a pro gamer now a days quit when they just see a "cheese" build in the regular Starcraft. They would micro out of it and build accordingly to the new situation at hand.
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On March 17 2010 09:13 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 08:29 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On March 17 2010 08:22 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 03:29 ShaperofDreams wrote:On March 17 2010 02:32 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 02:24 Chill wrote:On March 17 2010 01:59 JTPROG wrote:
You won't win a tourney with cheese. There are countless examples proving you wrong. Winning on the ladder essentially means nothing if it's cheese. Depending on how you look at this, it is either subjective or circular logic - Take your pick.
So this boils down to "play with your best chance to win"? I agree. There was a tourney where someone won every games using cheese? Even if so, how many times did that happen? "play with your best chance to win" And you won't win if you don't have a SOLID game besides cheesing, and this is done by practicing predominantly standard play, which is the point of this thread. Cheese little, standard much, if you want to get good. I doubt anyone has ever won a major tourney did not have a SOLID standard game. And i'm sure they didn't spend much more than 5% of their time playing cheeses either. So now this theoretical player who is equal in lifestyle, talent, and motive of every other player of the world is cheesing all of the time instead of half the time? You provide no context to your argument, Id prefer to be the cheesey player against Flash or Bisu 100% of the time, or compared to Korean players in SC1 because I don't have hours to play every day. It would be way more fun to have mastered a bunch of cheese and win some than practice macro and still lose to every one with better macro (aka everyone) You're full of crap man...even Jaedong is super aggressive and takes lots of shots, if you see an opportunity take it. It would be stupid not to cheese players who go FE all the time. Also while their are some cheeses that either win or don't win, there are many plays considered "cheese" which have a transition, and maximizing the advantage after that can get complex and is very important to learn. I don't really understand what you're trying to say in the first paragraph, but you said to reply to your post, so I'll try to. Okay - so you can be a cheesy player against Flash or Bisu, yes, that is your best chance. I'm saying you shouldn't cheese on the ladder so that you can actually get better at the game in general. It seems everyone is misunderstanding the point and thinks i'm saying you should never cheese. This is not true. But cheesing should not be your main play or strategy. It should be very minimum, especially on the ladder. Cheesing is saved for let's say 1 game of a BO3. You can practice it on the ladder, but you must predominantly play standard games if you want to go better. You say you don't have hours to play every day and you want to have fun. If you read the OP i said this post doesn't apply to you. This post only applies to people who want to get better by playing the ladder. Go ahead and cheese all day, but you'll never get better that way. You can abuse the ladder, but that's about it. And yes, some cheeses do have transitions into standard play, but the fact is it started with cheese, and therefore "messes up" any real standard aspects of that particular game - for both players. You can cheese once and win but to win consistently you need to be a solid player who plays solid games consistently. You wanna know how you get better? you cheese mercilessly, repetitively, and vs the same few people (who will also cheese you) You will be continuously forced to change ur strategy, and play ridiculous, low econ games that hinge on micro, decision making, scouting, and game sense. After a while, you will learn timing windows, and be able to feel out how the game works. Both sides will then try to maximize their econ while still not dying to the flurry of cheeses. eventually, you will arrive upon the "standard" BO that pros use. It's not the product, but the process that makes you a better player. or you can skip all the bullshit and practice what matters.
which is exactly why people like you with that kind of mindset will always die to cheese and then find a reason to complain. And no matter how hard you try, will never be at the top. (cough*idra*cough)
If you wanna skip the process and just try to make the finished product, then that's fine.
But there's a reason difficult jobs require a high level of education.
You wanna be a surgeon, fine, but you need to learn basic academia, then go through premed, then go to med school. You can't just start practicing cutting people up.
Don't expect you can "skip the bullshit and practice what matters" and actually get results
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On March 17 2010 09:13 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 08:29 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On March 17 2010 08:22 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 03:29 ShaperofDreams wrote:On March 17 2010 02:32 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 02:24 Chill wrote:On March 17 2010 01:59 JTPROG wrote:
You won't win a tourney with cheese. There are countless examples proving you wrong. Winning on the ladder essentially means nothing if it's cheese. Depending on how you look at this, it is either subjective or circular logic - Take your pick.
So this boils down to "play with your best chance to win"? I agree. There was a tourney where someone won every games using cheese? Even if so, how many times did that happen? "play with your best chance to win" And you won't win if you don't have a SOLID game besides cheesing, and this is done by practicing predominantly standard play, which is the point of this thread. Cheese little, standard much, if you want to get good. I doubt anyone has ever won a major tourney did not have a SOLID standard game. And i'm sure they didn't spend much more than 5% of their time playing cheeses either. So now this theoretical player who is equal in lifestyle, talent, and motive of every other player of the world is cheesing all of the time instead of half the time? You provide no context to your argument, Id prefer to be the cheesey player against Flash or Bisu 100% of the time, or compared to Korean players in SC1 because I don't have hours to play every day. It would be way more fun to have mastered a bunch of cheese and win some than practice macro and still lose to every one with better macro (aka everyone) You're full of crap man...even Jaedong is super aggressive and takes lots of shots, if you see an opportunity take it. It would be stupid not to cheese players who go FE all the time. Also while their are some cheeses that either win or don't win, there are many plays considered "cheese" which have a transition, and maximizing the advantage after that can get complex and is very important to learn. I don't really understand what you're trying to say in the first paragraph, but you said to reply to your post, so I'll try to. Okay - so you can be a cheesy player against Flash or Bisu, yes, that is your best chance. I'm saying you shouldn't cheese on the ladder so that you can actually get better at the game in general. It seems everyone is misunderstanding the point and thinks i'm saying you should never cheese. This is not true. But cheesing should not be your main play or strategy. It should be very minimum, especially on the ladder. Cheesing is saved for let's say 1 game of a BO3. You can practice it on the ladder, but you must predominantly play standard games if you want to go better. You say you don't have hours to play every day and you want to have fun. If you read the OP i said this post doesn't apply to you. This post only applies to people who want to get better by playing the ladder. Go ahead and cheese all day, but you'll never get better that way. You can abuse the ladder, but that's about it. And yes, some cheeses do have transitions into standard play, but the fact is it started with cheese, and therefore "messes up" any real standard aspects of that particular game - for both players. You can cheese once and win but to win consistently you need to be a solid player who plays solid games consistently. You wanna know how you get better? you cheese mercilessly, repetitively, and vs the same few people (who will also cheese you) You will be continuously forced to change ur strategy, and play ridiculous, low econ games that hinge on micro, decision making, scouting, and game sense. After a while, you will learn timing windows, and be able to feel out how the game works. Both sides will then try to maximize their econ while still not dying to the flurry of cheeses. eventually, you will arrive upon the "standard" BO that pros use. It's not the product, but the process that makes you a better player. or you can skip all the bullshit and practice what matters.
How are you qualified to say what does and doesn't matter if you can't even break D+.
http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/JTPROG.html
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On March 17 2010 09:36 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 09:13 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 08:29 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On March 17 2010 08:22 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 03:29 ShaperofDreams wrote:On March 17 2010 02:32 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 02:24 Chill wrote:On March 17 2010 01:59 JTPROG wrote:
You won't win a tourney with cheese. There are countless examples proving you wrong. Winning on the ladder essentially means nothing if it's cheese. Depending on how you look at this, it is either subjective or circular logic - Take your pick.
So this boils down to "play with your best chance to win"? I agree. There was a tourney where someone won every games using cheese? Even if so, how many times did that happen? "play with your best chance to win" And you won't win if you don't have a SOLID game besides cheesing, and this is done by practicing predominantly standard play, which is the point of this thread. Cheese little, standard much, if you want to get good. I doubt anyone has ever won a major tourney did not have a SOLID standard game. And i'm sure they didn't spend much more than 5% of their time playing cheeses either. So now this theoretical player who is equal in lifestyle, talent, and motive of every other player of the world is cheesing all of the time instead of half the time? You provide no context to your argument, Id prefer to be the cheesey player against Flash or Bisu 100% of the time, or compared to Korean players in SC1 because I don't have hours to play every day. It would be way more fun to have mastered a bunch of cheese and win some than practice macro and still lose to every one with better macro (aka everyone) You're full of crap man...even Jaedong is super aggressive and takes lots of shots, if you see an opportunity take it. It would be stupid not to cheese players who go FE all the time. Also while their are some cheeses that either win or don't win, there are many plays considered "cheese" which have a transition, and maximizing the advantage after that can get complex and is very important to learn. I don't really understand what you're trying to say in the first paragraph, but you said to reply to your post, so I'll try to. Okay - so you can be a cheesy player against Flash or Bisu, yes, that is your best chance. I'm saying you shouldn't cheese on the ladder so that you can actually get better at the game in general. It seems everyone is misunderstanding the point and thinks i'm saying you should never cheese. This is not true. But cheesing should not be your main play or strategy. It should be very minimum, especially on the ladder. Cheesing is saved for let's say 1 game of a BO3. You can practice it on the ladder, but you must predominantly play standard games if you want to go better. You say you don't have hours to play every day and you want to have fun. If you read the OP i said this post doesn't apply to you. This post only applies to people who want to get better by playing the ladder. Go ahead and cheese all day, but you'll never get better that way. You can abuse the ladder, but that's about it. And yes, some cheeses do have transitions into standard play, but the fact is it started with cheese, and therefore "messes up" any real standard aspects of that particular game - for both players. You can cheese once and win but to win consistently you need to be a solid player who plays solid games consistently. You wanna know how you get better? you cheese mercilessly, repetitively, and vs the same few people (who will also cheese you) You will be continuously forced to change ur strategy, and play ridiculous, low econ games that hinge on micro, decision making, scouting, and game sense. After a while, you will learn timing windows, and be able to feel out how the game works. Both sides will then try to maximize their econ while still not dying to the flurry of cheeses. eventually, you will arrive upon the "standard" BO that pros use. It's not the product, but the process that makes you a better player. or you can skip all the bullshit and practice what matters. which is exactly why people like you with that kind of mindset will always die to cheese and then find a reason to complain. And no matter how hard you try, will never be at the top. (cough*idra*cough) If you wanna skip the process and just try to make the finished product, then that's fine. But there's a reason difficult jobs require a high level of education. You wanna be a surgeon, fine, but you need to learn basic academia, then go through premed, then go to med school. You can't just start practicing cutting people up. Don't expect you can "skip the bullshit and practice what matters" and actually get results
Cheesing is not needed, and I guess would be considered the "bullshit". Once you are very good at the game you are also very good at cheesing. It's just a matter of executing a simple strategy with your already stellar macro micro and management skills. Cheesing won't make you better. You can practice everything without it. It's a good tool later, but not good for getting better.
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My thought is cheese can be extremely useful to help a player get better. Sure, learning build orders that take you to the late game are great, and help practice macro, but often that can lead to a newer player becoming completely overwhelmed. A build designed to win quickly allows a player to improve his micro and multi tasking. Will the player's wins begin to drop off once he hits a skill division that features better players who are better at stopping cheese? Sure. But it isnt like the skills learned from the proper execution of cheese build have no place in a standard game.
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I think you should realize that "Cheese" and "Standard Play" are all subjective. What's a "Standard Play" to you? NOT "Cheesing"?
If you never get good at "Standard Play," so be it. That's like saying you have to use FE Forge 90% of your games because all other methods suck.
If a strategy can beat another strategy, USE IT. It proves nothing by saying "It can beat higher level players"; that is the case with ANY strategy. If any one strategy were so dominant that it were invincible to all strategies, the game would become a "Terran always does X, Protoss always does Y, Zerg always does Z" game. Because of "Cheese," the so-called "Standard Play" is made beatable by an alternate strategy.
In a strategy game such as SC, you do what will let you win. If it's "Cheese," so be it. What does having amazing macro do if you're taken out in the first 5 minutes? You'll be prepared for the time when anti-Cheese builds are found, but until then, you need to fend for yourself.
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EPT
