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On February 27 2010 00:36 Skyze wrote:
people always want to have something to bitch about. Honestly didnt bother reading the OP cause I know hes just pulling bullshit out of his ass..
ROACHES.. come on man.. nothing more needs to be said.
Maybe you should read the op. He has a decent opinion. Better than "ROACHES"
Anyway I think from a roster of units it is definitely kind of disappointing but from a gameplay standpoint Zerg is still very interesting. The fast switching between economy and unit production is WAY more pronounced than in Starcraft but perhaps feels like nuance is slightly less possible(Good Zerg players often squeeze out an extra drone or two when they feel at ease or they can cement a lead).. In SC2 to get the same effect you kind of need to just pump out a lot of drones at once since you really are not going to be playing off more than 3 bases too often(Nor is there really a positive bonus to going far beyond that).
Lurker.. I miss u :' (
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I hate how terrans now have Dark Swarm (point defense drone) and zergs don't. Even toss get their anti-ranged defense with sentry shield.
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On February 27 2010 00:52 Feefee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 00:38 Haemonculus wrote:
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive. Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =(
Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol
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On February 27 2010 00:53 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 00:51 onmach wrote:
The problem is that some four units in zerg were carried over with little if any change (zergling, hydra, muta, ultra). Compared to protoss which has two? (zealot, carrier). So of course there is more interesting stuff happening in that race. Z - 4 Zergling Hydralisk Mutalisk Ultralisk P - 6 Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Carrier Archon Observer T - 4 Marine Ghost Siege Tank Battlecruiser This excludes larva and worker units.
Forgot Guardian and overlord for Z.
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I feel lost with mid-game Z. Something is missing there.
You get hydras, mutas, and infestor. Mutas can't stack too well yet and gas costs alot more to mine so so far I haven't been able to make timing mutas such as in SCBW 3 hatch muta to gain that much map control.
Hydras I feel are quite strong. However, they die too hard to storm and tanks (omg tanks so strong now). Infestor let's see what the new patch does.
Something threatening and powerful needs to be included in mid-game zerg i think. Lurkers were great for this, however they did make zerg alot more defensive in BW.
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i always disliked roaches ever since I heard the name, it didn't sound zerglike at all.
If I had my way, i'd scrap their attack and change it to some kind of 10 second cooldown ability like charge for zeals, where they could shoot a line/wave of damage that does small splash. (similar to lurkers). Also roach is stupid name and thing in real life, would be better if they were called locust or something that can actually damage shit. then you could call the attack locust swarm or whatever.
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On February 27 2010 01:06 Khaymus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 00:53 lolaloc wrote:On February 27 2010 00:51 onmach wrote:
The problem is that some four units in zerg were carried over with little if any change (zergling, hydra, muta, ultra). Compared to protoss which has two? (zealot, carrier). So of course there is more interesting stuff happening in that race. Z - 4 Zergling Hydralisk Mutalisk Ultralisk P - 6 Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Carrier Archon Observer T - 4 Marine Ghost Siege Tank Battlecruiser This excludes larva and worker units. Forgot Guardian and overlord for Z.
Yeah, forgot Overlord... No Guardians in SC2.
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On February 27 2010 00:20 HowardRoark wrote:
This post is not about balance or about the hard counter nature of SC2 (which I am not sure I like at all), but about the units of Zerg.
To sum up the Zerg of SC2: They removed two of the most interesting units of the Zerg, Lurker and Scourge (which had a distinct feel and that was very unique to Zerg), and added the anonymous Roach, which is like a Hydra without air attack, and the Baneling. They cut the wings of the Queen and made her useful. They kept the Mutalisk, and changed the name and looks of the Devourer, that still however can evolve into the Guardian-like Brood Lord. They kept the Ultralisk, but renamed the Defiler to Infestor and downgraded its abilities.
For every change Blizzard did to the SC2 Zerg compared to the SC1 Zerg, the only one I find interesting was to cut the wings of the Scourge into Baneling.
I do think that SC2 needs new units and abilities, but compared to the SC2 Protoss which is very interesting, the SC2 Zerg units feels like an alpha build of SC1 (with flashy graphics indeed). The new unit composition of Zerg does not enhance the uniqueness of Zerg, rather diminishing it.
The SC2 Protoss however, while keeping most of the interesting units from SC1, added a lot of new interesting ones: the Collossi, the Immortal and the Stalker (instead of the Dragoon), the Mothership, the Sentry, the Void Ray, Warp Prism and added a lot of interesting fresh features to these units.
Also, certain parts of the Terran is IMHO rather bland ATM compared to the colorful SC1 "tripple entente" of the M&M+Firebat. SC2 Terran feels like you have 4 sizes of Marine, first the standard Marine, then the bigger Marauder, FlyingMarine Reaper and finally the MegaMarine Thor. However though, not as "uninteresting" as the current build of Zerg.
To sum it up: Protoss got a very interesting overhaul with a great mix of new and old units and abilities, but I do not feel Zerg got the same quality treatment from Blizzard. Sure, I can just play Protoss and care little about Zerg but in the long run I guess it will be rather boring only playing lots of PvP matches.
One ingredient why SC1 is such a great game is that every race was so geniously well crafted; and I wish Blizzard would treat the Zerg as they did treat the new Protoss. SC2 is not SC1, so new and fresh units is a must, aslong as they are interesting and provide uniqueness to each race. Removing the Lurker and adding the anon. Roach just because Blizzard feel they need to alter the unit composition of Zerg is not the right way to go.
What do you think of SC2 style Zerg?
I think you are being far too harsh... Zerg looks like a heavily expansion/horde themed race, and at the moment no one knows how to early expand safely. Roaches and hydras do kind of overlap (basic ranged attack unit), but I think that this is solvable (hydras had to be nerfed from the alpha when all-in hydra just beat everything) - strengthening hydra AA and making the roach more burrow friendly (since there are no lurkers anymore) should alleviate any concerns. The main problem is that Zerg and Terran casters are too weak. The sentry for Protoss is more useful than any unit other than zealots in the P arsenal.
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On February 27 2010 01:04 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 00:52 Feefee wrote:On February 27 2010 00:38 Haemonculus wrote:
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive. Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =( Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol
What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes.
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Surely the queen's heal and corruptor's ability to lock down buildings are two pretty underused abilities right now? Both seem like they could spice up offensive play a little and move things away from massing units and wondering why the race feels so boring. Even the infestor's newly tweaked neural parasite must be of some use no? I mean a colossus entering a fight can change the entire outcome so being able to steal ownership of it for even a few seconds could prove vital on occasion.
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Agreed 100%, Protoss definitely has the coolest units and abilities by far.
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On February 27 2010 01:02 Piousflea wrote:
I hate how terrans now have Dark Swarm (point defense drone) and zergs don't. Even toss get their anti-ranged defense with sentry shield.
Yes, this ability was a trademark for Zerg. I feel if something ought to stay with Zerg, it would be their anti-range support spell and their melee over-running.
On February 27 2010 01:13 CharlieMurphy wrote:
i always disliked roaches ever since I heard the name, it didn't sound zerglike at all.
If I had my way, i'd scrap their attack and change it to some kind of 10 second cooldown ability like charge for zeals, where they could shoot a line/wave of damage that does small splash. (similar to lurkers). Also roach is stupid name and thing in real life, would be better if they were called locust or something that can actually damage shit. then you could call the attack locust swarm or whatever.
That is a good idea. If the Roach stay in the game, it needs something more than being just a ground only Hydra-clone. Especially since anti-ranged defence is given to T and P, and the Lurker "cloaked" splash is gone.
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Lol from SC1 you miss the scourges? Scourges suck big time. ^ ^
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Also roach is stupid name and thing in real life, would be better if they were called locust or something that can actually damage shit. then you could call the attack locust swarm or whatever.
Anub'arak calls forth Anub'ar Guardians!
Anub'arak yells: The swarm shall overtake you!
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On February 27 2010 00:53 lolaloc wrote:
Z - 4
Zergling
Hydralisk
Mutalisk
Ultralisk
P - 6
Zealot
High Templar
Dark Templar
Carrier
Archon
Observer
Those four Zerg units see a lot of use though.
Protoss has Sentry, Colossus, Stalker, Immortal, Void Ray that all get used a lot, and then Phoenix and Mothership as well.
Zerg has Roaches, Banelings and...? Corruptors I guess but their 'hook' isn't very interesting compared to other new units. Brood Lords might just as well be Guardians, the fact that they shoot Broodlings seems to be cosmetic. The Infestor doesn't seem nearly as useful as the Defiler
The Queen is cool but it's not a combat unit. So, Protoss has 5 new combat units that people have taken to while the Zerg pretty much has two while most of their combat units are the same from the last game.
Now, I don't see how you'd remove Mutalisks, Hydralisks, Ultralisks or Zerglings from the Zerg but I don't think the Infestor, Brood Lord and Corruptor are very interesting units compared to the other new units in the game. Roaches and Banelings are cool though!
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On February 27 2010 01:21 Feefee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 01:04 SubtleArt wrote:On February 27 2010 00:52 Feefee wrote:On February 27 2010 00:38 Haemonculus wrote:
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive. Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =( Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes.
The point im making is if u dont know something as basic as that you obviously don't play sc enough to have an appreciation for it. Yes 3v5 comp stomps and watching some pro games are fun but not enough for you to claim you adequately know the game. Hence, you think that any time we request something to be made similar to SC1 we're blind fanboys. Again, go read my post on page 1
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I really think Blizzard did a great job Unit-wise and Macro-wise with the Terrans. The Units are versatile, not just counter-Units, allow decent amount of Micro etc.
For the Macro-Part, Blizzard did a decent job an all the races. They implemented Multiple Building selection and Auto-Mining and because the SC-Fans raged with phrases like "SC2 will have no Macro", Blizzard implemented some nice mechanics to keep the player busy macroing in his base.
We've never worried about the Micro-Aspect and the quality of the Units (with quality of Units I mean: It's a versatile Unit and not just a counter to sth, it makes interesting Micro possible and encourages it, it synergizes well with other Units etc. Stuff like Hellion, Reaper, Marauder are excellent Examples)
Now@Topic: The new Zerg-Units and some essentiel Changes on the old one make me think that Blizzard didn't do a good Job creating the Zerg-race in SC2, mostly because of some very uninteresting and unnecessary Units:
Roaches: Roaches are unnecessary, unversatile, don't allow interesting Micro and are simply a massable counterunit (not as much a counter-unit like for example the Immortal, but still: Roaches are just good against certain types of Units.) Why make the Hydras Tier2 and Roaches in Tier1? Noone needs the Roaches... In fact, I've hated them since the first time they've been mentioned, because of the above reasons, without ever having seen them "in Action".
Hydralisks: Hydras and Roaches are too similar, so get hydras back to Tier1 and cut the roaches or change the Hydras somehow...
Mutalisks: I've read several times even months/years ago, that Blizzard wanted to make good mutastacking/Mutamicro in SC2 possible - they said their working on "breaking" the enginge, so that it works like in SC1, but it clearly does not.
This Aspect makes Mutas much less micro-intensiv, much less fun to watch or to play with und much less effective. Thats why mutas are so good right now: Blizzard had to make Mutas unproportionally strong concerning HP and DMG, because they're just not even near as versatile, deadly in the right hands without proper Mutamicro being possible in SC2. I don't know how other Zerg-Fans feel about that, but when I see the Mutas in SC2, all spread out in an Arc, focusing a Unit with just the half-dead Mutas being retreated, it nearly breaks my heart. And the Mutas are just one of the Units that are much less Micro-intensiv, it's basically true for all the Air-Units... No more Scourges, no Wraith-stacking, no Corsairs with AoE so you had to spread your mutas out etc.
General Engine-Problems: With way better Pathfinding and surrounding, so many of the Units are way easier to control. I don't say thats a bad thing if you just wanna play a simple game, but SC1 isn't being played for over 10 years now on an extremely high professional level, because controlling the Units was easy.
Okay; back when Blizzard made SC1, they basically didn't have a clue that later on, ppl would discover stuff like mutamicro and it kinda happened by mistake because of how the game was programmed then and that there were these little glitches, which enriched the game so much.
I don't want Blizzard to get rid of the new and better enginge, but like with the Macro, Blizzard has to come up with stuff that makes up for the lack of required micro because of better pathfinding and surrounding etc.
It's very important for me that everyone who reads this understands, that for me, it's not a balancing-issue at all: The problem isn't solved by just making the lings have less HP, because surrounding is easier, or making the Mutas have more HP/do more DMG, because stacking and proper Mutamicro isn't possible anymore, it's about finding a way to give the player an opportunity to spend they're time with the Unit.
SC1 is such a great game, because no matter how fast you are, you can never do everything perfect in the game. You allways have to decide whether to build stuff in base, micro a certain Unit, harrass with another Unit, scout etc.
Now I don't say that SC2 can't be played on a very high level, but the possibilities on how you want to play the game and where you want to spend the most important ressource in high-level-SC1, namely your attention, is way more limited than in SC2.
I think Tasteless or Artosis (I'm not sure though... it was a famous SC1-Personality though) mentioned those different playstyles once in a cast or article or sth. and said that this Aspect is so crucial in SC1. I don't think it was in the context of SC2 and it was a while ago, but it totally is appropriate to think about when comparing SC2 to SC1 and why I think that SC2 doesn't just need balancing, but a complete overhaul of certain Units and Aspects of the Engine.
Don't get me wrong, SC2 looks great and I really wanna play it, but those things mentioned above, are just Aspects of SC1, which helped SC1 to do the leap from "extremely good RTS" to "THE BEST FREAKING RTS IN THE WORLD!".
If SC2 more or less stays the same as now, I'm sure SC1 will stay the most popular game in Korea and the best RTS ever made. In Progaming, it's not about graphics - we see what happened with WC3 in Korea: It had better graphics than SC, it had the "Blizzard-Logo", it was new and had interesting mechanics and stuff, but in the End, it wasn't as fun to watch, it wasn't as challenging/demanding for the player and there wasn't much room for different playstiles; all of those things are also true if you compare SC1 with SC2!
But as mentioned in teh Beginning: We see Blizzard can make new Units that are IMHO very good and versatile, but why implement stuff like Collossus, VoidRay, Immortal, Roaches that are just slow, boring, massable counterunits that don't leave much micro-possibilities. Those Units lead to the Way SC2 is being played right now: Totally focused on Unit-Composition, where you pretty much send 2 Armies with A-Move to your opponents Army and the one who has the right Amount of Counter and Counter-Counter Units, wins.... -.-°
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I like zerg now, in fact some of the changes are really interesting.
I like how the zerglings look, I think the queen is a great unit, and I love how the sunken and spore colonies are mobile!
The roach has a odd look to it in my opinion, I do hope they reinstate the lurker, it would be nice
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My only problem with the zerg is the infestor. This unit doesnt even come close to the defiler in awesomeness. The protoss get 3 good casters(sentry, ht, ms) and the terrans get 2 good casters(ghost and raven), but the zerg are stuck with one terrible caster. I really think blizz needs to work on the infestor and think of another cool caster for tier 3.
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I think the SC2 zerg owns SC1 zerg!
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EPT
