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On February 27 2010 01:50 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 01:21 Feefee wrote:On February 27 2010 01:04 SubtleArt wrote:On February 27 2010 00:52 Feefee wrote:On February 27 2010 00:38 Haemonculus wrote:
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive. Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =( Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes. The point im making is if u dont know something as basic as that you obviously don't play sc enough to have an appreciation for it. Yes 3v5 comp stomps and watching some pro games are fun but not enough for you to claim you adequately know the game. Hence, you think that any time we request something to be made similar to SC1 we're blind fanboys. Again, go read my post on page 1
Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? Please quote the part in which he shows that he doesn't know something as basic as scourge micro.
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The Lurker was probably removed because at hive tech it was competing with the much more mobile Ultralisk and Brood Lord with less hitpoints and damage output.
Infestors can now apply Neural Parasite on any unit for 10 seconds. That's pretty good in my opinion. I think the deal with the Roach was that Zerg didn't have any units that were good against units at the same tier, so it was buffed. As a result, you see people mass these units in the early-game as a transition into hydralisks.
Also, enough with the ad hominem arguments.
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On February 27 2010 02:55 LunarC wrote:
The Lurker was probably removed because at hive tech it was competing with the much more mobile Ultralisk and Brood Lord with less hitpoints and damage output.
Infestors can now apply Neural Parasite on any unit for 10 seconds. That's pretty good in my opinion. I think the deal with the Roach was that Zerg didn't have any units that were good against units at the same tier, so it was buffed. As a result, you see people mass these units in the early-game as a transition into hydralisks.
Also, enough with the ad hominem arguments.
I think you've nailed the argument for roach implementation here spot on, simply because as you said Zerg had nothing tier one that could compete with Terran and Protoss, I mean yeah Hydra were strong Tier 1 but zealots and a few goons destroyed them, same with M&M's now they've been put tier two more so to basically act as AA as much as ground, I feel roaches are there so zerg don't get steam rolled, I've seen over the years so many Zerg lose to 2gate zealot all ins because you could get a few hydra off and some zerglings but more often than not overrun, Roaches are a hard counter to marines and Zealot, which is why they're there. Back on topic, I feel Zerg now are more versatile, in such you don't need 6000 units now to be able to play offensively vs terran and toss, I like how the game is going though myself hard counters make the game more cut throat, and although detracts slightly from micro, did anybody really enjoy mass goon with +1 weapon grades rolling people for example? I think the way blizz are going about Sc2 is spot on, I also being a Z player myself mind you think Muta stacking not so well is good, being able to stack maybe 24 muta on top of each other is ridiculous it takes skill to micro it yes, but is it fair on the other races trying to defend it? probably not.
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Hi this is my first post and english is not my main lenguaje, so sorry about that.
The thing that nobody comment here is the creep mechanic, come on do you really like the creep tumors thing? a little ugly thing? seriusly colony--->sunken/spore was so much better method of creating creep. Now the zerg bases looks so empty in my opinion
Also they removed 3 units: scourge defiler and lurker, with were the most demanding micromanage units in BroodWar, and now we have roachers corruptors and infestors (2 non creative units A+click, and useless caster)
watch lurker defiler and a good scourge management in BW was spectacular(And the dark swarm, consume, plague were so fucking creative). now is just mass X units and a+click.. seriusly guys i don't understand how you can like the actual zerg.
I think they were too obsessed with the implementation of roach and infestor, even in the first blizzcast you can read about an unit who regenerates fast (and it's clear the concept simply doesn't work anymore) but they try and try and try to implement them in the game, and roach doesn't bring new mechanics or cool gameplay, just mass them and you will win. Simply BORING, lurker was so much better in all aspects.
something similar happened with thor (even some of blizzard crew don't like them at all) but devs are obsessed with the implementation of thors
and the infestor unit is a little sad, just look at their last spell, the infested marine thing.. it's like they have no creativity at all.
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This is a good point. I'm really gonna miss the lurker but on the other hand the baneling is awesome! I agree with the others about the roach, it's just uninteresting in every way possible..
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Zerg is definitely getting the short end of the stick here in terms of cool factor. Roaches are rather bland, Infestor's spells are just boring/bad for Zerg's ONLY caster, and air units are also unoriginal, we lose the scourge and gain broodling spawns on a renamed Guardian. Corruptor / Devourer are not very far apart.
Let's not even get into unit/attack sounds again which are particularly disappointing for zerg.
MEH @ SC2 ZERG.
What will SC be without Zerg's cool factor? Tragedy is what.
EDIT: Losing Scourge, Defiler, and Lurker for Baneling, Infestor and Roach is pretty garbage. The Baneling is the only really interesting/good "replacement". Roach and Infestor are just terrible trade-offs for Lurker/Defiler. And that's an understatement.
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Im playing Terran instead of Zerg cause I find Zerg boring atm =( Roach/Hydra army feels like a Protoss army. I want a Zerg army with the same finesse it had in SC.
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On February 27 2010 02:53 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 01:50 SubtleArt wrote:On February 27 2010 01:21 Feefee wrote:On February 27 2010 01:04 SubtleArt wrote:On February 27 2010 00:52 Feefee wrote:On February 27 2010 00:38 Haemonculus wrote:
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive. Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =( Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes. The point im making is if u dont know something as basic as that you obviously don't play sc enough to have an appreciation for it. Yes 3v5 comp stomps and watching some pro games are fun but not enough for you to claim you adequately know the game. Hence, you think that any time we request something to be made similar to SC1 we're blind fanboys. Again, go read my post on page 1 Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? Please quote the part in which he shows that he doesn't know something as basic as scourge micro.
The part where he says scourge suck because they all blow up on 1 target while banelings (or w/e those exploding units are called) do not.
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I completely agree that zerg is just boring now...
Yes I can win with roaches or muta all-ins, but it's so uniteresting to do it, mass a unit or 2, hope you arn't countered, possibly tech switch and mass a new unit, end game.
Infestor needs some major love, even past this current patch. neural parasite being channeled just means that with it's short range, that you sac an infestor for 1-2 shots from a colossus or 1 storm.
the very fact we'll be willing to sacrifice a unit, just to get to use the protoss units for a few seconds is just funny/sad.
Roaches:
I think they need to nerf the roach's damage, give it bonus damage to light, like before, and increase it's survivability again. Roaches I actually don't mind as a concept, they are a very hard to kill unit, that when microed decently should take some effort to kill. The problem is that blizzard is trying to make them a hard counter to tier 1 light, and buffed their damage too much.
proposed stats:
125 hp
2 base armour
8 damage +6 vs light
remove speed upg and make their base speed like it is upged
instead an upg that gives +50hp and 2 armour at lair
Zergling:
with the nerf to hatch level roach zergling needs to be given a slight buff to help zerg counter other tier 1. They origionally increased the size of a zergling to reduce it's damage, I think a small size reduction would thusly help immensly, especially vs zealots. Speed upgrade buffed to be 30% faster instead of the 20% or so it is now. Even with these 2 changes it should be enough to make the zergling able to counter other tier1 enough for zerg to live through Tier1, as well as making the zergling stay more feasible later in the game.
Infestor:
give us our goddamned dark swarm or consume, or plague back... In SC1 there were 3 spells that were used exclusively by zerg, all 3 of which were iconic to the race. It has been shown definitively that they are not against having spells taken from the origional and putting them into SC2, take protoss as a prime example: psi storm hallucination stasis and recall are all in the game in some form, and being used to decent effect too. Something major needs to be done for the infestor to be used as more then a novelty piece. First step: increase the range on it's casting, even make this an upgrade if you need to. Second step: give it some form of energy gain, with the way zerg work, where units are fragile, but in high supply (that has translated fairly well into SC2) waiting for energy to regen, really isn't an option. either a direct consume translation, being able to drain enemy caster energy while remaining burrowed, or even the siphon life if it had a longer range. If we made siphon life have 8 range, cost 0 energy and drain 4 life per second, giving 2 per second to the infestor channeled, unusable on buildings, would this really cause a big upset? It would allow for a 4 tiered zerg army, melee - roaches - hydras - infestors. Another concept would be to have the infested terrans that are spawned be more interesting then the couple seconds of shoot and die they are now, making them blow up would of course be the logical solution, but since they made the baneling it would be a bit of an overlap, maybe make them explode if they die of their timer, making the enemy really want to focus them down before they go off, as well as making micro oppertunities to get them in position for when they run out of time.
Overseer:
Give the overseer another spell, I don't even know what it should be, just something non-combat situational that it can throw around making them more then expensive non-cloaked observers.
lurker:
bring it back in some form! preferably at lair tech, maybe mutated from roach instead of hydra?
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On February 27 2010 04:01 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 02:53 FortuneSyn wrote:On February 27 2010 01:50 SubtleArt wrote:On February 27 2010 01:21 Feefee wrote:On February 27 2010 01:04 SubtleArt wrote:On February 27 2010 00:52 Feefee wrote:On February 27 2010 00:38 Haemonculus wrote:
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive. Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =( Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes. The point im making is if u dont know something as basic as that you obviously don't play sc enough to have an appreciation for it. Yes 3v5 comp stomps and watching some pro games are fun but not enough for you to claim you adequately know the game. Hence, you think that any time we request something to be made similar to SC1 we're blind fanboys. Again, go read my post on page 1 Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? Please quote the part in which he shows that he doesn't know something as basic as scourge micro. The part where he says scourge suck because they all blow up on 1 target while banelings (or w/e those exploding units are called) do not.
That part doesn't fucking exist. You've made me read through that god damn line of quotes 4 times already.
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On February 27 2010 04:16 Shiladie wrote:
Overseer:
Give the overseer another spell, I don't even know what it should be, just something non-combat situational that it can throw around making them more then expensive non-cloaked observers.
This is actually a good idea. Make the overseer a spellcaster unit (such as a science vessel) by adding another meaningful spell in there.
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Personally I love Zerg in SC2 except for the Roach. It''s a very dull unit.
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I really like the above idea of the roach mutating into some form of lurker.
Blizz has said that they're discounting the first few weeks of gaming for balance as people learn the game. Maybe Z will seem less disappointing as they're relearned?
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Anyone else hate the name roach? Zerg used to be cool in SC1. I'm not sure I can stand the names of the new units.
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. I don't think there is any problem with the Zerg at all except maybe 1-2 units needing a buff and those are the spell castor's (i need my swarm cover  )...
The Zerg are a lot more interesting to me now then with SC1...There are a lot of new mechanics that I love, one of those being how the new queen works...Roaches are awesome, they are probably "the" bread and butter of the zerg..In combination with some ling/bane/hydra you are gonna be made of win...Its more important now to have good unit combinations then it was in SC1...
Sure there are a few areas that could be improved(spell castor's) but it's not a really huge issue at the moment...We are still all trying out a lot of different things to actually start brining out flaws in certain match ups or units...
Either way, its too early to tell how the balance is going to work out because we are only at the tip of the mountain with different tactics/combos...
But I will say this, am probably not the only one, that finds a lot of lac in micro, I think this is one of my biggest complaints with the new SC.
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Since we're talking about zerg feel.
CONSUME!!! come on...cannibalism for strength is so zergggggg
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I think zerg needs some kind of "fun" unit for lair tech. With infestor being crappy, casters aren't viable.
Back in BW the lurker was a really fun unit to use, as if you used it properly it could do devastating damage. I also think roach is more lair tech. Swap places for hydra and roach, give us some unit thats hard to use, but can give amazing results if used correctly.
Also consume is very much needed. It felt so "zergish"
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On February 27 2010 04:21 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 04:01 SubtleArt wrote:On February 27 2010 02:53 FortuneSyn wrote:On February 27 2010 01:50 SubtleArt wrote:On February 27 2010 01:21 Feefee wrote:On February 27 2010 01:04 SubtleArt wrote:On February 27 2010 00:52 Feefee wrote:On February 27 2010 00:38 Haemonculus wrote:
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive. Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =( Btw for the scourge all exploding on 1 target thing: Spread the scourge and use right click to move them. When they are right beside (and kinda overlaping) the clump of air units u want to scourge you press a-move and they all acquire different targets. Pretty basic micro tip. Again, shows that you barely play BW. Refer to my first response lol What does scourge micro have to do with the question of if banelings overkill a target? I'm aware that you can micro scourge to lessen the blow of bad AI, I'm asking if banelings have similarly bad AI. And I've certainly played and watched enough BW to be able to voice my opinion on if zerg "feels disappointing now". They do not in my eyes. The point im making is if u dont know something as basic as that you obviously don't play sc enough to have an appreciation for it. Yes 3v5 comp stomps and watching some pro games are fun but not enough for you to claim you adequately know the game. Hence, you think that any time we request something to be made similar to SC1 we're blind fanboys. Again, go read my post on page 1 Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? Please quote the part in which he shows that he doesn't know something as basic as scourge micro. The part where he says scourge suck because they all blow up on 1 target while banelings (or w/e those exploding units are called) do not. That part doesn't fucking exist. You've made me read through that god damn line of quotes 4 times already.
On February 27 2010 00:34 Feefee wrote:
Honestly? That OP post almost makes me angry =P. You thought the scourge was one of the most interesting units in SC1? I suppose I'll leave you to that opinion.. Banelings are like mass scourge on the ground that do splash damage and don't all explode into the same target. Infinitely better and infinitely more fun to watch. Plus you can burrow them and explode them like you would a stop lurker trap if you really miss lurkers.
Changelings are a blast to watch every time. I recommend wr3k's stream, he uses them so often^^. Roaches can move while burrowed, Nydus worms are scary as hell. All in all I think sc2 zerg have really captured the feel of "overrun the guy with a swarm of units, and be sneaky and mean while doing it". They're anything but bland, you're just being one of those people who cries himself to sleep for hours when they change a tiny minute detail from sc1... well you get what I mean^^.
Happy? The fact that you even bothered that much is funny. Either way this is a useless argument.
To contribute to the thread, I think balance issues might be the main problem with swarm, especially ZvT. In Sc1 irradiate gave terran the ability to kill all defilers on site, which balanced it. Obviously this isn't an option.
Also the main units for Z are ranged now (Roach / Muta / Hydra). With the absense of lurkers swarm just doesnt feel as integrated into zerg strategy
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On February 27 2010 04:56 lgd-haze wrote:
I think zerg needs some kind of "fun" unit for lair tech. With infestor being crappy, casters aren't viable.
Back in BW the lurker was a really fun unit to use, as if you used it properly it could do devastating damage. I also think roach is more lair tech. Swap places for hydra and roach, give us some unit thats hard to use, but can give amazing results if used correctly.
Also consume is very much needed. It felt so "zergish"
i think this applies to protoss as well: No real fun2play/watch, microintensiv unit on midtier....
my solution would be (for Z) to bring back proper Mutamicro. For P, you had to basically implement a totally new unit or bring us back the reaver.
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ling + feels better now more swarmy and faster.
Roach + is an interesting unit.
Hydra is not an interesting unit, shoots air ground, slow, good range. What more can you say about it?
Muta, brood lord, corrupter - meh dont like the feel of them
Ultra - nothing special.
queen +
overlord + many interesting improvements.
banelings = awesome
infestor interesting again when it now can control ALL UNITS! Includes colossus I hope!? dies easily channeling like that. But who cares 2 infested colossus just getting 2 shots of at their own army is priceless. I love this change.
A mixed impression. As I feel for terran as well. Some nice other meh.
Protoss definitely got the love. Many cool abilities and special features on almost all units. Phoenix feels a bit boring but it has the gravity thing to make up for it. But protoss are high tech it suits them. Zerg should be the swarmy ones something I do feel we got fairly nicely. And terran well human never liked them not in SC1, BW or SC2 =)
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EPT
