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So as many other posters are doing, let me preface this by saying I am not in the beta and currently this is just theory.
That being said I was hoping someone in the beta would be able to tell me about the viability of Terrans getting multiple Command centers (with orbital commands) per base. In another thread it was estimated a MULE gives the terran player approximately 250-300 minerals per call-down. A command center costs 400 minerals and has a 100s build time, the orbital command requires another 150 minerals and has a 50s build time. That means for a total cost of 550 minerals and 150 seconds of build time, the terran player gets another MULE working (meaning the whole venture of building another command center should pay for itself in the first 2 call-downs). Now right now, (I'm hesitant to use the word meta-game as the beta is subject to drastic change/a real meta-game hasn't had time to develop) in the very rushing oriented style that's most prevalent, the opportunity cost of doing this would be prohibitively high (those minerals/that time would be MUCH better spent on extra units for your army). However, if the game starts going down the path of SCI and longer, macro-oriented games start becoming the norm, how viable would you think it would be for terrans to start having extra command centers on one or two of their bases (mid to late game)?
Tl;dr: Extra CC+Orbital Command would pay for itself after first 2 MULEs. As meta-game goes more macro, what are your thoughts on viability of extra command centers in mid to late game?
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you talk about it paying for itself but during that youre missing out on 8 marines, 4 maraders or 8 reapers,(not counting gas) and so on..youre cripping yourself for early game for an eco. Which with the state of the way the game is now is really risky, its good to theorycraft it but without ability to test it its just that :S
Id be willing to test it if it wasnt for the absurd fact that all of my games now im set favored, I had a win in the last 5 games thats given me more than 7 points, ridiculous.
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On February 25 2010 00:36 Monokeros wrote:
you talk about it paying for itself but during that youre missing out on 8 marines, 4 maraders or 8 reapers,(not counting gas) and so on..youre cripping yourself for early game for an eco. Which with the state of the way the game is now is really risky, its good to theorycraft it but without ability to test it its just that :S
Id be willing to test it if it wasnt for the absurd fact that all of my games now im set favored, I had a win in the last 5 games thats given me more than 7 points, ridiculous.
Well it wouldn't be an early game investment. I agree early game it wouldn't be feasible at all. This would be once you have a force and have moved out. But yes, if you have a chance to test it'd be much appreciated!
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The new OC would eventually pay for itself, but it would be better off in a new expansion where it gives you even more value. A time I can think of to do this is when you're in the process of securing an expansion and the new OC is already built. You can call down mules at another base while waiting to lift off and put it in position.
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Don't forget that you'll also be losing mining time while the SCV is building the CC. Also, if the mineral fields are already fully saturated with SCVs, would adding another MULE actually help much?
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On February 25 2010 00:45 789 wrote:
A time I can think of to do this is when you're in the process of securing an expansion and the new OC is already built. You can call down mules at another base while waiting to lift off and put it in position.
I had thought about this but I didnt think OC could do anything if not attached to a CC. If they can then it would be very valuable to just leapfrog your CC, build an OC, lift, move, drop, build etc.
On February 25 2010 00:46 Xlancer wrote:
Don't forget that you'll also be losing mining time while the SCV is building the CC. Also, if the mineral fields are already fully saturated with SCVs, would adding another MULE actually help much?
MULES mine at the same rate independent of the SCV saturation.
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On February 25 2010 00:46 Xlancer wrote:
Don't forget that you'll also be losing mining time while the SCV is building the CC. Also, if the mineral fields are already fully saturated with SCVs, would adding another MULE actually help much?
A mule can mine from the same patch an SCV is. So yes ... adding mules to fully saturated patches still helps. I still say the new OC would be better off in its own base though.
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On February 25 2010 00:46 Xlancer wrote:
Don't forget that you'll also be losing mining time while the SCV is building the CC. Also, if the mineral fields are already fully saturated with SCVs, would adding another MULE actually help much?
From the replays I saw it didnt seem like the MULE blocked SCV's from a mineral patch. I am not in beta so I am not sure but if your mineral line is fully saturated I believe MULES still work without slowing down any of your current SCV's.
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On February 25 2010 00:49 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 00:45 789 wrote:
A time I can think of to do this is when you're in the process of securing an expansion and the new OC is already built. You can call down mules at another base while waiting to lift off and put it in position. I had thought about this but I didnt think OC could do anything if not attached to a CC. If they can then it would be very valuable to just leapfrog your CC, build an OC, lift, move, drop, build etc. Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 00:46 Xlancer wrote:
Don't forget that you'll also be losing mining time while the SCV is building the CC. Also, if the mineral fields are already fully saturated with SCVs, would adding another MULE actually help much? MULES mine at the same rate independent of the SCV saturation.
The Orbital Command is a Command Center upgrade, not an add-on. The Command Center turns into an Orbital Command.
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Is a CC upgraded with OC able to lift-off and move to your nat/third ?
Assuming it is, this would be quite nice, since (especially on maps with ramps) this could even favor 1-base play, where you hide in your base and harass everywhere (I don't have a beta key so I don't know if this is viable...). That extra OC could really help out with your economy once it's built, and if you then lift it to your nat it would really kick-start your income.
It is safer to build your CC in your main then lift it, but would it be better to upgrade OC before moving out (say, if you're being heavily harassed)?
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Edit: OC information
On February 25 2010 00:52 bITt.mAN wrote:
Is a CC upgraded with OC able to lift-off and move to your nat/third ?
According to sc2armory.com it is capable of liftoff.
If the CC just becomes the OC then honestly it would be handy just as a low risk low reward alternative to expanding. If for whatever reason you feel like you cannot expand (or hold a new expansion) you can still increase your mineral intake, then simply fly it over to your new expansion when you feel more capable of holding it. My question still holds though, for late-game/long term macro oriented play, would it be a feasible investment at an already existing expansion?
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All these theories are based on the assumption that a MULE gives you 300 minerals. It doesn't, you just get the minerals earlier and since that's exactly not what you want in a long macro game, why would it help you?
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On February 25 2010 01:00 disco wrote:
All these theories are based on the assumption that a MULE gives you 300 minerals. It doesn't, you just get the minerals earlier and since that's exactly not what you want in a long macro game, why would it help you?
Well then why saturate your minerals with SCVs? It doesn't get you any more minerals, it just gets you minerals earlier. More minerals fast is how games are won.
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On February 25 2010 00:52 bITt.mAN wrote:
Is a CC upgraded with OC able to lift-off and move to your nat/third ?
Assuming it is, this would be quite nice, since (especially on maps with ramps) this could even favor 1-base play, where you hide in your base and harass everywhere (I don't have a beta key so I don't know if this is viable...). That extra OC could really help out with your economy once it's built, and if you then lift it to your nat it would really kick-start your income.
It is safer to build your CC in your main then lift it, but would it be better to upgrade OC before moving out (say, if you're being heavily harassed)?
Orbital Commands are able to lift off. They lose the Command Center's ability to hold 5 SCVs like a drop ship though.
On February 25 2010 00:53 See.Blue wrote:Edit: OC information Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 00:52 bITt.mAN wrote:
Is a CC upgraded with OC able to lift-off and move to your nat/third ?
According to sc2armory.com it is capable of liftoff. If the CC just becomes the OC then honestly it would be handy just as a low risk low reward alternative to expanding. If for whatever reason you feel like you cannot expand (or hold a new expansion) you can still increase your mineral intake, then simply fly it over to your new expansion when you feel more capable of holding it. My question still holds though, for late-game/long term macro oriented play, would it be a feasible investment at an already existing expansion?
Right now in beta, SC2 is played with far less expanding than in SC1. Maybe eventually doing something like this when there are no available bases would be viable, or when the game does eventually take a macro shift. As it is right now, if you have a window to expand you should just do it. I don't think boosting a bases income via mules would be enough for your investment.
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Saying the Mule doesn't give you extra minerals in a long macro game is like saying that extra SCVs don't give you extra minerals in a long macro game.
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Some more interesting aspects:
- MULEs don't have a supply cost (at least if I didn't miss anything). Depending on how many SCVs a MULE is worth you save several supply. You might get away with less SCVs because you have more MULEs.
- The OC still provides +10 supply (at least it should). That's another 125 minerals saved on supply depots. An OC is also less fragile than supply depots.
- MULEs increase mining rate even if your min line is already saturated with SCVs.
- more OCs means that you are less vulnerable to cloaked units.
@ disco:
What? Of course you want the money as early as possible. If you have more money and your opponent doesn't yet, it opens windows for you to create an army advantage or increase your economic advantage even more.
But obviously if you try to use an additional OC, you take a risk (money and time spent on OC) in order to have more money later.
Your comment only makes some sense in the case of a game where the whole map is mined out and having slightly more money than your opponent will decide the game. I doubt anyone is thinking about that scenario when they talk about macro games.
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On February 25 2010 01:25 spinesheath wrote:
Some more interesting aspects:
- MULEs don't have a supply cost (at least if I didn't miss anything). Depending on how many SCVs a MULE is worth you save several supply. You might get away with less SCVs because you have more MULEs.
- The OC still provides +10 supply (at least it should). That's another 125 minerals saved on supply depots. An OC is also less fragile than supply depots.
- MULEs increase mining rate even if your min line is already saturated with SCVs.
True. So if you were to build an OC instead of a supply depot, the OC would only cost a net 425 minerals (though obviously youd have to time it to finish in time for when you need the new supply). That would mean that after 2 MULES you'd absolutely be above where you would be otherwise.
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Hmmm... You could fly your extra command center around the map with your army, only landing it to call in mules. It could soak up some damage, and you could land it in choke points to have the enemies army go through in a straight line while your m&m eat them alive. Once I get SC2 beta I will find a build order to make this viable.
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the main base minerals run out rather quickly. (faster than sc1 imo)
Having multiple CC also means you'll need to expand faster since you dont really get extra minerals after some time, you only get them faster. It's an advantage of course, but i'm really not sure it's worth it.
I play toss and when i run into a terran defence, the guy better have every unit he can affort to hold his position. Taking too much time to multi-CC will cost you the game. You need to play the beta to understand how hard it is to defend a ramp now with all the new mechanics.
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On February 25 2010 01:55 UmmTheHobo wrote:
Hmmm... You could fly your extra command center around the map with your army, only landing it to call in mules. It could soak up some damage, and you could land it in choke points to have the enemies army go through in a straight line while your m&m eat them alive. Once I get SC2 beta I will find a build order to make this viable.
Yeah then you could make a fleet of Planetary Fortress CCs and use them to harass the enemies minerals line.
I can't wait to try that strat out.
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Yeah then you could make a fleet of Planetary Fortress CCs and use them to harass the enemies minerals line.
I can't wait to try that strat out.
As funny as that would be I know PF cannot takeoff
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On February 25 2010 01:57 MaDTeMpLaR wrote:
the main base minerals run out rather quickly. (faster than sc1 imo)
Having multiple CC also means you'll need to expand faster since you dont really get extra minerals after some time, you only get them faster. It's an advantage of course, but i'm really not sure it's worth it.
I play toss and when i run into a terran defence, the guy better have every unit he can affort to hold his position. Taking too much time to multi-CC will cost you the game. You need to play the beta to understand how hard it is to defend a ramp now with all the new mechanics.
Yeah this is pretty much what I've been saying. Playing cutesy with too much expanding or multi-CC will just get you run over. If you're going to invest in another CC ... it better be at an expo. Saying "it only costs this much net" and will "pay for itself in this amount of time" is all well and good. But in that time frame where you don't have those units can get you steamrolled. Yes this means expanding is risky too, but there is a bigger payoff in the end. Multiple OCs per base has less pay off making it not worth the risk.
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Dont forget your also getting supply from the cc so you could make it in a build instead of going depot you save up and go OC
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Do MULEs mine more from "High End Resources" in comparison to regular resources?
I'd like to know what SCVs mine from regular, and special resources... and what mules mine from both...
anyone plz PM me this answer if you read this
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On February 25 2010 02:01 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +
Yeah then you could make a fleet of Planetary Fortress CCs and use them to harass the enemies minerals line.
I can't wait to try that strat out.
As funny as that would be I know PF cannot takeoff
How long does it take to upgrade PF?
You could send in some clean CC and land/upgrade them during a battle?
It reminds me of AoW push in WC3
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On February 25 2010 19:41 teapot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 02:01 See.Blue wrote:
Yeah then you could make a fleet of Planetary Fortress CCs and use them to harass the enemies minerals line.
I can't wait to try that strat out.
As funny as that would be I know PF cannot takeoff How long does it take to upgrade PF? You could send in some clean CC and land/upgrade them during a battle?
Considering how short most battles in SC2 seem to be: Too long.
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well I think if a game ever reaches the late game period, mules from extra orbital commands could be useful at risky expo spots instead of scv's, since they mine so quickly and even cc's at home can call down mules afar.
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On February 25 2010 16:49 Bill Murray wrote:
Do MULEs mine more from "High End Resources" in comparison to regular resources?
I'd like to know what SCVs mine from regular, and special resources... and what mules mine from both...
A normal SCV mines 5 per trip. An SCV on golden minerals mines 7 per trip.
A normal MULE mines 30 per trip (and will mine a total of 270 before it expires). A golden MULE mines 42 per trip.
Just tested this myself vs. an AI.
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EPT
